Schaudt says AGM same as gel? (2 Viewers)

[acropolis22]

I'd always thought that AGM batteries are just another form of lead acid battery. But Schaudt say their Electroblok 271 should have the battery selector switch set to "Lead gel" not "Lead acid". This is from Schaudt's manual for the Electroblok EBL 271:

"AGM battery: Schaudt GmbH recommends charging AGM batteries
with their chargers in switch position ”Lead-gel battery”.
We believe that AGM batteries can be charged perfectly this way. However,
suitability must be checked using information from the battery
supplier and the charging parameters of Schaudt equipment. The
charging parameters are specified in the operating and installation
instructions."

As far as I can see, (restricted visibility in battery compartment), mine is set to Lead acid, against Schaudt's recommendation. I'm not entirely happy with battery performance, and this is just one thing I want to check out. What do people think? Would I get better charging by switching to the "Lead gel" position? The battery is a 180 Ah AGM.

 

[TheCaller]

Lead Acid, AGM & Gell are all lead acid batteries. The difference is the way the acid is held. In batteries normally referred to as Lead Acid, or Flooded, or Wet Lead Acid, the acid is in a solution with water. In AGM it is absorbed onto a glass mat. In a Gel battery, the acid is mixed with something else (I forget what) to form a gel.

With the Flooded Lead Acid, in some circumstances the acid starts to separate from the water, known as stratification. A period of fast charging at higher than normal voltage makes the electrolyte bubble & remixes it. Often referred to as an equalisation stage. That would cause damage to both AGM & Gel batteries. So although in an ideal world, AGM & Gel batteries would have their own separate charge profiles, if you only have a choice between Flooded & Gel, then the Gel setting will be better than the Flooded Lead Acid.

Unless you need to run a high power inverter, Gel is probably better than AGM for normal leisure use. A little more expensive to buy, but better value for money over the expected lifetime. Not worth swapping a battery you already have, but worth considering if you need to get a replacement at some point.

P.S. I don't know if the Schaudt 271 has an automatic equalisation stage in it's Lead Acid profile.

 

[acropolis22]

Lead Acid, AGM & Gell are all lead acid batteries. The difference is the way the acid is held. In batteries normally referred to as Lead Acid, or Flooded, or Wet Lead Acid, the acid is in a solution with water. In AGM it is absorbed onto a glass mat. In a Gel battery, the acid is mixed with something else (I forget what) to form a gel.

With the Flooded Lead Acid, in some circumstances the acid starts to separate from the water, known as stratification. A period of fast charging at higher than normal voltage makes the electrolyte bubble & remixes it. Often referred to as an equalisation stage. That would cause damage to both AGM & Gel batteries. So although in an ideal world, AGM & Gel batteries would have their own separate charge profiles, if you only have a choice between Flooded & Gel, then the Gel setting will be better than the Flooded Lead Acid.

Unless you need to run a high power inverter, Gel is probably better than AGM for normal leisure use. A little more expensive to buy, but better value for money over the expected lifetime. Not worth swapping a battery you already have, but worth considering if you need to get a replacement at some point.

P.S. I don't know if the Schaudt 271 has an automatic equalisation stage in it's Lead Acid profile.

Thanks, that's useful. I don't have an inverter, and in any case, I'm hoping not to have to change the battery for a while. From what you've said, I should perhaps be changing the setting on the 271 to gel? Although the previous owner had it set to acid for the first couple of years of it's life, which may or may not have caused damage? It's a 2017 van bought by me in May 21, and not used much at all in 2020 by the previous owner because of Covid restrictions.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Stealaway]

Have a look at the final charge voltage - It seem to be the only difference

14.4 for lead /Gel and 14.7 for AGM

 

[Lenny HB]

Have a look at the final charge voltage - It seem to be the only difference

14.4 for lead /Gel and 14.7 for AGM

Depends if the AGM is type 1 or type 2.

 

[autorouter]

There's two differences in the charging profile of lead-acid and lead-gel. First, the absorption voltage is higher, about 14.7V instead of 14.4V. The absorption stage starts when the battery first reaches the absorption voltage.

For lead-acid batteries it ends when the amps has fallen to a predetermined value, typically 1/10 of the bulk charge amps. For gel, the absorption stage is extended by a timer, often for several hours. This is when 'recombination' of oxygen and hydrogen gas back into H20 happens, so no water is lost and a sealed battery is possible. Both Gel and AGM are sealed, with a pressure-limiting valve.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acropolis22]

So do you guys think I should change the Electroblok setting to "Lead Gel"?

 

[Lenny HB]

So do you guys think I should change the Electroblok setting to "Lead Gel"?

Depends on the type of AGM you have.

 

[acropolis22]

Depends on the type of AGM you have.

Type 1 or Type 2, referring back to your earlier post? Probably not much chance of identifying that. Last time I had the battery out, didn't see any branding. Nothing visible on top either. Which type requires the "Lead gel" setting?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lenny HB]

This is from memory so I may have it the wrong way round.

Type one charge voltage 14.4v
Type 2 charge voltage 14.7v

I think most are now type 2 early Banners were type 1.

The EBL on Gel will have a charge voltage of 14.3v with an absorption time of 6 to 16 hours depending on model.

On Lead Acid charge voltage of 14.3v with an absorption phase of 1 hour.

Neither is good for an AGM.

My last van came with Banner AGM both Schaudt & Banner said they would be fine on the Gel setting, lying bar*teds, both batteries died in 18 months.

 

[acropolis22]

This is from memory so I may have it the wrong way round.

Type one charge voltage 14.4v
Type 2 charge voltage 14.7v

I think most are now type 2 early Banners were type 1.

The EBL on Gel will have a charge voltage of 14.3v with an absorption time of 6 to 16 hours depending on model.

On Lead Acid charge voltage of 14.3v with an absorption phase of 1 hour.

Neither is good for an AGM.

My last van came with Banner AGM both Schaudt & Banner said they would be fine on the Gel setting, lying bar*teds, both batteries died in 18 months.

I'm ahead of the game then! Pretty sure I have the original battery from 2017..... Any idea whether it's more likely to be Type 1 or 2 from that year?

 

[acropolis22]

I'm guessing from everything I've (recently) learned that the EBL 271 is a fairly unsophisticated bit of kit as regards battery charging?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lenny HB]

I'm ahead of the game then! Pretty sure I have the original battery from 2017..... Any idea whether it's more likely to be Type 1 or 2 from that year?

I think it will be type 2

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

I have a Varta LA 95. AGM. Checking it's tech specs it say's it's ideal charging voltage is at 14.4 - 14.7.
Top up charging, 13.5- 13.8.
My Electroblok 119 is also set to lead Acid,so presumably I can also switch that across to a GEL setting?
This battery is 3 years old, and still holds 12.5v. Today I have a folding solar 120w with an MPPT reg topping it up, as the sky is clear blue.
I have another panel the same topping up the starter battery, I have connection straight to the battery for the starter battery, but through a PWM reg.
Mike.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Update, just checked the 119 Electroblok, it has AGM, or Gel alternatives,so best left on the AGM setting profile I'd assume.
Mike.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acropolis22]

Update, just checked the 119 Electroblok, it has AGM, or Gel alternatives,so best left on the AGM setting profile I'd assume.
Mike.

Interesting. What year is your van? Am I right in thinking the 119 is an earlier model than the 271? Strange it has a specific AGM setting but the 271 doesn't.

 

[Lenny HB]

Interesting. What year is your van? Am I right in thinking the 119 is an earlier model than the 271? Strange it has a specific AGM setting but the 271 doesn't.

No logic to EBL numbers the 99 is a very old one that goes back 20 years but updated version still fitted to some vans, our 2014 Hymer had a 29, our current Hymer 2017 has a 30.

 

[acropolis22]

No logic to EBL numbers the 99 is a very old one that goes back 20 years but updated version still fitted to some vans, our 2014 Hymer had a 29, our current Hymer 2017 has a 30.

Would have been nice to see some sort of logic...... But at least now I know.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Interesting. What year is your van? Am I right in thinking the 119 is an earlier model than the 271? Strange it has a specific AGM setting but the 271 doesn't.

Sunlight 2019.



<----------<

 

[acropolis22]

Sunlight 2019.



<----------<

So, wrong assumption on my part that the 119 is older. No logic in the numbers apparently, as pointed out above by Lenny HB . You're lucky you have an AGM setting; obviously leave it on that. I'm still not sure what to do.

 

[Lenny HB]

So, wrong assumption on my part that the 119 is older. No logic in the numbers apparently, as pointed out above by Lenny HB . You're lucky you have an AGM setting; obviously leave it on that. I'm still not sure what to do.

Easy buy a Gel and bin the AGM.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Have you checked the specifications for your battery? It may well give the most advantageous charging voltage, which would help you decide. How often are you charging it?
Mike.

 

[donkey]

Easy buy a Gel and bin the AGM.

You just couldn't help yourself, could you?

Geoff

PS. Did you see my post on diesel heater?

 

[acropolis22]

Have you checked the specifications for your battery? It may well give the most advantageous charging voltage, which would help you decide. How often are you charging it?
Mike.

Unfortunately there was nothing with the van when I bought it, secondhand. I don't even know what brand.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lenny HB]

PS. Did you see my post on diesel heater?

Just found it, hadn't had any notifications for the last 3 posts.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

The opening paragraph in this article may prove helpful, It's quite a long read through for the whole piece though.

Charging batteries | Mastervolt .

Important information about charging batteries

www.mastervolt.com

Mike.

 

[Lenny HB]

You just couldn't help yourself, could you?

When you have had two AGM's that are only 18 months old die at the same time in the wilds of Greece you would understand why I get wound up about them.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acropolis22]

The opening paragraph in this article may prove helpful, It's quite a long read through for the whole piece though.

Charging batteries | Mastervolt .

Important information about charging batteries

www.mastervolt.com

Mike.

Thanks. Interesting. My problem is that Schaudt don't give any information for the float phase so I'm struggling a bit.

 

[acropolis22]

"With the setting Gel you can charge an AGM battery type 1 as well. The necessary voltage level ist 14,3V. When you have an AGM battery type 2 with a need of 14,7V charging level please set the EBL to gel mode as well and add any additional charger with an AGM output with 14,7V and minimum 6A." This is part of Udo Lang's reply about the EBL 271 settings. Is he saying that for a Type 2 AGM battery I need to have an additional charger somehow connected to the EBL 271? That would be well beyond my abilities/experience to do...........

 

[Lenny HB]

"With the setting Gel you can charge an AGM battery type 1 as well. The necessary voltage level ist 14,3V. When you have an AGM battery type 2 with a need of 14,7V charging level please set the EBL to gel mode as well and add any additional charger with an AGM output with 14,7V and minimum 6A." This is part of Udo Lang's reply about the EBL 271 settings. Is he saying that for a Type 2 AGM battery I need to have an additional charger somehow connected to the EBL 271? That would be well beyond my abilities/experience to do...........

You can fit another charger separate to the EBL and take the fuse out on the EBL that stops it charging but I'm not sure if the engine battery still gets charged.
autorouter may know.

The cheaper option would be to run your current battery until it dies then replace with Flooded cells or Gels.