Replace AGM Batteries w Lithium or Gel? (1 Viewer)

[davidroxburgh]

So my plan is to have the 200Ah lithium fitted and use the solar (lithium profile) and alternator only during our 9 odd days touring Scotland then home. I will not use EHU unless desperate due to 15V charge rate if used. I am getting a clamp meter recommended by Lenny HB so I can keep an eye on alternator charging. I will avoid idling or coasting where practicable and turn off ignition at lights etc. At least the ambient temperature in Scotland will be much lower!

The 30A B2B will be fitted on the first outing after Scotland. I will report how we get on. Having finally got to the bottom of where my split charge relay is, and it’s specification I now feel comfortable with this. Even if the B2B is belt and braces, given the £1,200 cost of the battery and the complex nature of the electronics in the van, I shall be happier.

Thanks for all advice.

 

[davidroxburgh]

If i understand correctly from watching the videos above, the video poster seems to infer the Victron video showing alternator burnout at an idling 1500rpm due to inadequate cooling under estimates the actual alternator speed at idle - due to a 3:1 pully reduction, so at 8-900rpm engine file speed would actually result in a 2,400-2700rpm alternator speed, with a fiat Ducati alternator pushing out up to 150A at full revs.(but more realistically approx 70 -100A.

he suggests the B2B is not required for lithium battery charging in non smart alternator equiped vehicles, however the charged voltage of a lithium battery (13.3v) is too high to allow a normal split charge relay to close, therefore the lithium battery would end up trickle charging the AGM starter battery, that is sitting at 12.4v, ultimately discharging the Lithium battery.

his solution was to install a Argofet 200-2 battery isolator to disconnect the Lithium battery once the alternator i / engine is turned off
https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Argo-Fet-Battery-Isolators-with-alternator-energize-input-EN.pdf

discuss!

So for me a B2B seems easier but I hope to talk this over with the video poster when the new battery is fitted.

 

[paddymcc]

If i understand correctly from watching the videos above, the video poster seems to infer the Victron video showing alternator burnout at an idling 1500rpm due to inadequate cooling under estimates the actual alternator speed at idle - due to a 3:1 pully reduction, so at 8-900rpm engine file speed would actually result in a 2,400-2700rpm alternator speed, with a fiat Ducati alternator pushing out up to 150A at full revs.(but more realistically approx 70 -100A.

he suggests the B2B is not required for lithium battery charging in non smart alternator equiped vehicles, however the charged voltage of a lithium battery (13.3v) is too high to allow a normal split charge relay to close, therefore the lithium battery would end up trickle charging the AGM starter battery, that is sitting at 12.4v, ultimately discharging the Lithium battery.

his solution was to install a Argofet 200-2 battery isolator to disconnect the Lithium battery once the alternator i / engine is turned off
https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Argo-Fet-Battery-Isolators-with-alternator-energize-input-EN.pdf

discuss!

The Argo fet seems to cost £120 so not a huge saving on a B2B. I think would be happier having a B2B with lithium settings triggered by the D+ if buying £700 of lithium battery

 

[davidroxburgh]

So the new 200 Ah underseat battery was fitted on Tuesday. Seat had to be removed but pleasingly this showed both heavy duty wiring to and from the heavy duty split charge relay already in place - 150 A? Due to my misunderstanding I could not read the charge overnight when parked up after fitting. Next day a swift visit back to KS Energy who showed me how to connect and access the App linked to the BMS.

On the drive back the charge rate was between 40 and 45 A until the battery got to near 14 V when the rate steadily dropped to almost nothing - full charge took 90 minutes. As I recall at idling the rate was less but when I run the van out again I will keep a sharp eye out.

So fantastic service from KS Energy - Neal Morris - and a great product so far. I shall hold the B2B and wait to see how things go before deciding whether and if to have it fitted. Incidentally the B 2B has gone up in price since purchase about 4 weeks ago. Also changed the Votronic solar regulator to one of the 4 Li settings. Neal advised the 14.2 setting just less than the 14.4 battery full charge.

On EHU the charge rate in was fine so despite being designed for the failed AGM batteries the rate was good. My take is that I doubt I shall need EHU much if at all. A scrap yard gave me a good price for the old AGM batteries (thanks @LennyHB) and I shed about 30 KG!
My Westfalia does not have an Elektroblok or Sargeant or CBE unit. It does have a digital display for battery water setting fridge etc. All functions as it should although I will rely on the App for charge state.
I hope that helps and will update when more experience. Our intended trip to Scotland had to be cancelled for other reasons.

 

[jezport]

davidroxburgh I have Votronic 165 Duo so have set that to Lifepo setting and so far its charging albeit slowly due to time of year. Will let you know regarding charging as I am away in a couple of weeks so will see how long it takes to charge whatever is left. So far today solar has topped up from 79% to 86% with no usage.

I have one of these regulators for sale at the moment in the classifieds.

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[David BW]

If i understand correctly from watching the videos above, the video poster seems to infer the Victron video showing alternator burnout at an idling 1500rpm due to inadequate cooling under estimates the actual alternator speed at idle - due to a 3:1 pully reduction, so at 8-900rpm engine file speed would actually result in a 2,400-2700rpm alternator speed, with a fiat Ducati alternator pushing out up to 150A at full revs.(but more realistically approx 70 -100A.

he suggests the B2B is not required for lithium battery charging in non smart alternator equiped vehicles, however the charged voltage of a lithium battery (13.3v) is too high to allow a normal split charge relay to close, therefore the lithium battery would end up trickle charging the AGM starter battery, that is sitting at 12.4v, ultimately discharging the Lithium battery.

his solution was to install a Argofet 200-2 battery isolator to disconnect the Lithium battery once the alternator i / engine is turned off
https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Argo-Fet-Battery-Isolators-with-alternator-energize-input-EN.pdf

discuss!

So Gerry, what did you go for and did it work? I've been reading this thread with interest as we have a Globecar Campscout which currently just has the standard 95ah battery under the seat, and no solar. Looking to upgrade and are am thinking of one of the KS-SB200B as a possibility, perhaps even without solar, as we tend to not spend very long anywhere without moving and often travel in the UK in October/November. I'm keen to learn if B2B is needed.

 

[David BW]

So the new 200 Ah underseat battery was fitted on Tuesday. Seat had to be removed but pleasingly this showed both heavy duty wiring to and from the heavy duty split charge relay already in place - 150 A? Due to my misunderstanding I could not read the charge overnight when parked up after fitting. Next day a swift visit back to KS Energy who showed me how to connect and access the App linked to the BMS.

On the drive back the charge rate was between 40 and 45 A until the battery got to near 14 V when the rate steadily dropped to almost nothing - full charge took 90 minutes. As I recall at idling the rate was less but when I run the van out again I will keep a sharp eye out.

So fantastic service from KS Energy - Neal Morris - and a great product so far. I shall hold the B2B and wait to see how things go before deciding whether and if to have it fitted. Incidentally the B 2B has gone up in price since purchase about 4 weeks ago. Also changed the Votronic solar regulator to one of the 4 Li settings. Neal advised the 14.2 setting just less than the 14.4 battery full charge.

On EHU the charge rate in was fine so despite being designed for the failed AGM batteries the rate was good. My take is that I doubt I shall need EHU much if at all. A scrap yard gave me a good price for the old AGM batteries (thanks @LennyHB) and I shed about 30 KG!
My Westfalia does not have an Elektroblok or Sargeant or CBE unit. It does have a digital display for battery water setting fridge etc. All functions as it should although I will rely on the App for charge state.
I hope that helps and will update when more experience. Our intended trip to Scotland had to be cancelled for other reasons.

David - any update? Reasons as above.

 

[MichaelT]

So Gerry, what did you go for and did it work? I've been reading this thread with interest as we have a Globecar Campscout which currently just has the standard 95ah battery under the seat, and no solar. Looking to upgrade and are am thinking of one of the KS-SB200B as a possibility, perhaps even without solar, as we tend to not spend very long anywhere without moving and often travel in the UK in October/November. I'm keen to learn if B2B is needed.

I fitted the underseat battery last November and its been fine. 150w solar keeps it topped up (even during winter) and have been away for 18 nights never got below 50% even using inverter for nespresso and hairdryer and no B2B.

On B2B I get confused as its still the same alternator charging the battery so not sure why you need it if the same alternator charges OK.

 

[davidroxburgh]

Hi David
I did have the B2B (Votronic 30) fitted - an abundance of caution probably. Certainly our experience on a very recent trip to Spain showed we recharged fine. My van has a compressor fridge and diesel heating with an underfloor extra so in winter we take 50 or 60 Amps easily overnight! So with 200 W solar I have only once had to use mains. That was after coming back from KS Energy when I left the fridge on. After 2 weeks the battery was down to 25% and we were going only a short way from the storage site to camp, so I simply hooked up overnight then unplugged.
We are going to the Chester rally over Easter and it will be interesting to see how we get on, if it is cold with little sun and not moving for 5 odd days.
in summary I do keep an emergency short hook up cable but expect to use it rarely. I find the fact of not having to worry about EHU very liberating!

 

[David BW]

Hi David
I did have the B2B (Votronic 30) fitted - an abundance of caution probably. Certainly our experience on a very recent trip to Spain showed we recharged fine. My van has a compressor fridge and diesel heating with an underfloor extra so in winter we take 50 or 60 Amps easily overnight! So with 200 W solar I have only once had to use mains. That was after coming back from KS Energy when I left the fridge on. After 2 weeks the battery was down to 25% and we were going only a short way from the storage site to camp, so I simply hooked up overnight then unplugged.
We are going to the Chester rally over Easter and it will be interesting to see how we get on, if it is cold with little sun and not moving for 5 odd days.
in summary I do keep an emergency short hook up cable but expect to use it rarely. I find the fact of not having to worry about EHU very liberating!

Thank you David,
We too have a compressor fridge but gas heating, though the electrical draw is probably similar. I do still wonder whether we'll need to include solar in the set up as I suspect we'll charge sufficiently just by moving. I'll be interested to learn how Easter goes.

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[David BW]

I fitted the underseat battery last November and its been fine. 150w solar keeps it topped up (even during winter) and have been away for 18 nights never got below 50% even using inverter for nespresso and hairdryer and no B2B.

On B2B I get confused as its still the same alternator charging the battery so not sure why you need it if the same alternator charges OK.

Thank you Michael,
Am I right in thinking that you don't have. compressor fridge?

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Thank you David,
We too have a compressor fridge but gas heating, though the electrical draw is probably similar. I do still wonder whether we'll need to include solar in the set up as I suspect we'll charge sufficiently just by moving. I'll be interested to learn how Easter goes.

Is there a reason you don’t want solar? Once installed it’s ‘free‘ power, added flexibility should you not wish to move on as soon etc?

 

[David BW]

No reason other than the additional expense for something that we may (probably) wouldn't need. We had just 120W solar and a 115ah battery (or thereabouts) on our last van and that worked fine for us, but it had a 3 way fridge.
I guess we'll probably go the whole way and add solar too.

 

[gerry mcg]

So Gerry, what did you go for and did it work? I've been reading this thread with interest as we have a Globecar Campscout which currently just has the standard 95ah battery under the seat, and no solar. Looking to upgrade and are am thinking of one of the KS-SB200B as a possibility, perhaps even without solar, as we tend to not spend very long anywhere without moving and often travel in the UK in October/November. I'm keen to learn if B2B is needed.

I went for a 200Ah KS Energy lithium under driver seat battery, with a direct connection to a to the Starter battery via a votronic vcc1212-50 B2B to charge the leisure battery safely when driving.

I disconnected the EBL119 mains and 12v charging from the leisure battery and added a 15A Victron mains charger with a dedicated lithium charging profile rather than rely on the less than ideal EBL119 gel setting.

Solar charging is with a 150w panel and a victron smart solar 75/15 MPPT and there is a victron smartbatterysenss on the lithium battery to provide battery temperature information to the MPPT to prevent cold charging below 0c

Ive added an isolator/ battery cut off switch between the B2B / mains charger and lithium battery so I can stop charging manually if I want / need to.

All seems to work as well and as planned

 

[gerry mcg]

On B2B I get confused as its still the same alternator charging the battery so not sure why you need it if the same alternator charges OK.

Lithium batteries have low internal resistance and czn soak up as much current (within reason) as the alternator can supply, so can potentially burn out / prematurely wear / damage alternator.
The B2B regulates / limits the charging current supplied by the Alternator. This prevents the alternator from pushing out max current all the time.

It also adds another layer of charging protection. Without it the battery BMS is the only charge protection on the battery. Common wisdom is one should not rely on the BMS as the sole charge protection, rather use the BMS as a second level of protection

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[paddymcc]

Ive added an isolator/ battery cut off switch between the B2B / mains charger and lithium battery so I can stop charging manually if I want / need to.

I fitted a switch on the D+ supply to the B2B which I can access whilst driving so I can turn of the current to the Roamer lithium 230Ah battery. I have the Votronic 50A B2B but currently have it set to restrict the max current ( to 30A) to see how it all works. No problems so far- it doesn't get warm enough to even turn the integral cooling fan on.

 

[tompaton]

We too are in Scotland, are new to motorhoming, and I know nothing about the technical side, save that the Leisure Battery supplied by the Dealer was a bottom of the range Lead Acid that would plummet when the solar panel went to sleep and the need for power, including drop down bed motor, was at its highest. I used to fret about 'range anxiety', so got the Cretin Card out in mid July and bought a KS Energy 120Ah Lithium Battery for £749 fitted. Haven't managed to get the Lithium below 93% SOC yet [but expect Scottish Winter/Lack of daylight/longer Power needs to change that], and it has completed only 1 cycle. I can now find something else to fret about probably the Cretin Card Bill ... ]

Steve

hi im also in Scotland, was it a straight swapover or did you have to change anything ie charger?

 

[Bessy765]

I have 2 x 100 Transporter Lithium batteries, they have been in for 2 years and around. 12,500 miles. This is with 700 wattts of solar and a Victron 12/2000/80 inverter charger. No B2B fitted. 2019 Fiat 2.3 no smart alternator. The minus on the d.c. power is amps going into the battery when driving at 55 mph plus the 416 w from the panels. This whilst running the Freshjet 2200 air con. The only stipulation from the installer was not to run the engine stationary for charging the batteries for more than 15 mins. Batteries are guaranteed for 10 years, the equipment for 5 years. Not used EHU since.

 

[tompaton]

thanks youve given me a sore head with all that tech

 

[Hoovie]

hi im also in Scotland, was it a straight swapover or did you have to change anything ie charger?

He is no longer a member here, but I can tell you he has added a 30A B2B to replace the built-in charger and an AMT12-2 Battery Maintainer to replace the Battery Master.

(I know this as I fitted them for him )

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[gerry mcg]

hi im also in Scotland, was it a straight swapover or did you have to change anything ie charger?

I'm in Glasgow and added a 200Ah ks-energy underseat battery wired directly with a votronic vcc1212-50 B2B And victron charger ro my van, and disabled the EBL 119 charging by disconnecting the EBL starter battery input.
If you want a look see, drop me a message

 

[tompaton]

He is no longer a member here, but I can tell you he has added a 30A B2B to replace the built-in charger and an AMT12-2 Battery Maintainer to replace the Battery Master.

(I know this as I fitted them for him )

thanks im not too sure what i have except it runs off hookup, engine batterry and solar, i bought a 200ah lithium and now a bit scared to swap wae the 95ah agm. anymore thoughts?

 

[Hoovie]

thanks im not too sure what i have except it runs off hookup, engine batterry and solar, i bought a 200ah lithium and now a bit scared to swap wae the 95ah agm. anymore thoughts?

Lots of different ways to do things.
My own take is .... The built-in chargers are rarely suitable for Lithium due to the much higher charging currents the Lithiums take. You need something that is happy running at full power for potentially hours. A standalone B2B will work best. The same is true of a Standalone Mains/EHU Charger AND an external Solar Controller.
The all-in-one units like the Electrobloc EBLs, Sargent ECs and the like are good for low power charging and low power distribution but not so much for coping with big Lithiums. Keep them for 12V distribution but nothing else. This is my opinion, but I have no doubt others will refute that and other others will tell you they are charging their 750Ah Lithium off a EBL99 in half an hour.

 

[tompaton]

Lots of different ways to do things.
My own take is .... The built-in chargers are rarely suitable for Lithium due to the much higher charging currents the Lithiums take. You need something that is happy running at full power for potentially hours. A standalone B2B will work best. The same is true of a Standalone Mains/EHU Charger AND an external Solar Controller.
The all-in-one units like the Electrobloc EBLs, Sargent ECs and the like are good for low power charging and low power distribution but not so much for coping with big Lithiums. Keep them for 12V distribution but nothing else. This is my opinion, but I have no doubt others will refute that and other others will tell you they are charging their 750Ah Lithium off a EBL99 in half an hour.

thank you will take it all on board cheers