Replace AGM Batteries w Lithium or Gel? (1 Viewer)

[gerry mcg]

I'm looking at replacement options for my 2x95 Ah Varta LA95 AGM Batteries.
I've got 150W solar with victron MPPT and our van has a compressor fridge and a EBL119

Being in Scotland, poor weather and high latitudes mean solar has moderate effectiveness outwith summer.

As far as I can gather, both Gel and Lithium will offer significant improvement over AGM for Leisure batteries.

In respect to gel, I understand they are better suited to leisure purposes than AGM, can take a DoD of 20% rather than the 50%DoD of AGM and are cheaper than Lithium and are essentially a drop in replacement for the AGM (Changing MPPT & EBL charge profile to Gel)

As I am in a PVC, I am limited in battery space to the void below the drivers seat that is fully occupied by the 2xAGM, and think a B2B would fit under the passenger seat behind the EBL

The benefit of lithium are weight saving, the ability to go to 5%DoD, rapid charging with suitable B2B and lifespan but the downside is cost for lithium battery, B2B, installation cost of both and can't charge <5c

What would you recommend / do?

If I go Gel, what brands should I look for / avoid and where is a good sources for them?
Should gel batteries be age matched if fitted in pairs

Thanks

 

[Richard n Ann]

I'd fit 2 x 80ah Exide gels (ES900). With no high drain equipment they would be my choice, cheaper than lithium and have a long life . We've got one ES900 and it's got plenty of capacity even with the TV on half the night

ES900 Exide G80 Marine Leisure Equipment GEL Battery 80Ah

ES900 Exide Marine & Leisure Equipment GEL Battery Exide are one of the leading battery companies in the world and have been delivering quality in the sector for more than 130 years! Exide has introduced its next generation of car/light vehicle batteries. The range is developed in Exide’s...

www.tayna.co.uk

 

[PhilandMena]

You are correct in that Gel and lithium out perform AGM. If your charging set up is set for AGM you might want to consider this newish type of AGM Battery which can be safety discharged lower than your standard AGM and has a lot of cycles.

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

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[MichaelT]

I am just fitting a KS Energy under seat 200A Lithium battery, got it all in and just testing the charge on solar etc. before finally fitting it place and tidying up a few things. Half the weight and smaller footprint than the 2 Varta I removed.

 

[marchie]

I'm looking at replacement options for my 2x95 Ah Varta LA95 AGM Batteries.
I've got 150W solar with victron MPPT and our van has a compressor fridge and a EBL119

Being in Scotland, poor weather and high latitudes mean solar has moderate effectiveness outwith summer.

As far as I can gather, both Gel and Lithium will offer significant improvement over AGM for Leisure batteries.

In respect to gel, I understand they are better suited to leisure purposes than AGM, can take a DoD of 20% rather than the 50%DoD of AGM and are cheaper than Lithium and are essentially a drop in replacement for the AGM (Changing MPPT & EBL charge profile to Gel)

As I am in a PVC, I am limited in battery space to the void below the drivers seat that is fully occupied by the 2xAGM, and think a B2B would fit under the passenger seat behind the EBL

The benefit of lithium are weight saving, the ability to go to 5%DoD, rapid charging with suitable B2B and lifespan but the downside is cost for lithium battery, B2B, installation cost of both and can't charge <5c

What would you recommend / do?

If I go Gel, what brands should I look for / avoid and where is a good sources for them?
Should gel batteries be age matched if fitted in pairs

Thanks

We too are in Scotland, are new to motorhoming, and I know nothing about the technical side, save that the Leisure Battery supplied by the Dealer was a bottom of the range Lead Acid that would plummet when the solar panel went to sleep and the need for power, including drop down bed motor, was at its highest. I used to fret about 'range anxiety', so got the Cretin Card out in mid July and bought a KS Energy 120Ah Lithium Battery for £749 fitted. Haven't managed to get the Lithium below 93% SOC yet [but expect Scottish Winter/Lack of daylight/longer Power needs to change that], and it has completed only 1 cycle. I can now find something else to fret about probably the Cretin Card Bill ... ]

Steve

 

[cyberyacht]

I have a 120AH KS Energy in mine but with a Euro 5 engine, I haven't bothered with a B2B. When running, the engine pushes in about 14A plus whatever my panels come up with( about the same in summer sun) and I've found that adequate. OH is a heavy microwave/kettle/toaster/hairdryer user via the inverter but so long as I move about every three days, any drain on the battery is replenished. Thinking about a second lithium to beef up capacity.

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[gerry mcg]

Link to the 200Ah KS under seat lithium £1,199

Lithium LiFePo4 leisure batteries online

12V Lithium battery sales for leisure market boats motorhomes and campers, LifePo4

www.ksenergy.co.uk

 

[MichaelT]

I have a 120AH KS Energy in mine but with a Euro 5 engine, I haven't bothered with a B2B. When running, the engine pushes in about 14A plus whatever my panels come up with( about the same in summer sun) and I've found that adequate. OH is a heavy microwave/kettle/toaster/hairdryer user via the inverter but so long as I move about every three days, any drain on the battery is replenished. Thinking about a second lithium to beef up capacity.

I am not adding B2B either, so far today I am getting about 5a from 150w solar which not too bad for October. Not tried to start engine yet as I still have seat out and not sure if any issues with the seat belt and not tried on EHU either but will do once I have it all in place tomorrow or Wednesday as I need to level the battery as I have a stepped plate for the 2 AGM batteries.

 

[69473]

Fitted two 95 Ah Lion lithium batteries to our pvc.
Previously our two AGM's, only 6 months old when changed would discharge in a little over two days in autumn/winter conditions.
Even with 200 watts of solar the demands of a compressor fridge and diesel heating were to much.
This was a problem first experienced last Oct in the Lake district, rain definitely no sun with high heating demands combined with lack of EHU availability caused a few problems.
It was only the late arrival of another camper that allowed us to gain a few hour EHU to tide us over.
Since fitting lithium I've had no battery concerns, the true test will be later this month when we travel back to the Lakes.
Financially it's expensive in our case just short of 3k, however personally i think its money well spent for the freedom it gives us.

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[georgio]

I too have a globecar and there is sticker on the battery box that says it should be replaced with same gel battery so that is what I shall do. Its x250 2014

 

[gerry mcg]

I'd fit 2 x 80ah Exide gels (ES900). With no high drain equipment they would be my choice, cheaper than lithium and have a long life . We've got one ES900 and it's got plenty of capacity even with the TV on half the night

ES900 Exide G80 Marine Leisure Equipment GEL Battery 80Ah

ES900 Exide Marine & Leisure Equipment GEL Battery Exide are one of the leading battery companies in the world and have been delivering quality in the sector for more than 130 years! Exide has introduced its next generation of car/light vehicle batteries. The range is developed in Exide’s...

www.tayna.co.uk

the compressor fridge is reasonably high draw, at say 25A in 24h. in bright sunlight, that is ok as solar keeps up, but in sustained overcast conditions it takes it toll on the battery, and the issue is then recharge time using the alternator - the van alternator only puts in max 2round 20A, and this tapers too, so it can take a lot of driving to put back in a deep discharge with AGM..

I don't think Gel are much better and the ability to put in 60A into lithium using a B2B is a big attraction - allowing replacement of a lot of Amps in a short time period driving

 

[marchie]

I have a 120AH KS Energy in mine but with a Euro 5 engine, I haven't bothered with a B2B. When running, the engine pushes in about 14A plus whatever my panels come up with( about the same in summer sun) and I've found that adequate. OH is a heavy microwave/kettle/toaster/hairdryer user via the inverter but so long as I move about every three days, any drain on the battery is replenished. Thinking about a second lithium to beef up capacity.

Same battery & engine set up but without inverter & hair care et al kit!

Steve

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[gerry mcg]

I haven't bothered with a B2B. When running, the engine pushes in about 14A plus whatever my panels come up with( about the same in summer sun) and I've found that adequate.

Without a B2B (that can put in something like 60A) you're are missing out somewhat on one of the big advantages of Lithium, that is its ability to take a high recharge current. It's not necessarily a problem, but a 60A hole in the battery would take 4hrs driving at an alternator current of 15A vs 1hr with a 60A B2B

 

[Millcourt]

If you have not already seen them, you might find it helpful to have a look at 2 postings I made a little while ago when I fitted 2 Lithium batteries in our Globecar Campscout, primarily to cope with our wish to be mostly off-grid and have enough power reserve to run the Compressor-only Fridge. There were also some very useful contributions made by other Funsters to these two threads.

A further year on, and having resolved all of the initial installation problems I mentioned, I am very happy with the set-up I installed which has met all our power needs whilst off-grid in moderate sun conditions and without needing to run the engine for up to 6 or 7 days. Not unexpectedly, our main problem for such a stay has been the limitations of the toilet cassette and we carry a spare to overcome this.

LIFOS/Inverter/B2B....... one year on

In an earlier posting (Sept 2019...... https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/campscout……-first-10-weeks-plus-recent-lifos-inverter-addition.203904/ ) I reported on my first 10 weeks of owning our new Globecar Campscout and the addition of a pair of Lifos batteries and an inverter. I had...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/campscout……-first-10-weeks-plus-recent-lifos-inverter-addition.203904/

 

[davidroxburgh]

MichaelT I am going the B2B route with the identical battery as you. I will be very interested to see if your split charge does enough coupled with solar - mine is Votronic 250 Digi Duo with 200A?W solar.

I have just posted about the possibility of a Votronic D+ Simulator Pro to simplify the installation of a Votronic 1212-30 B2B. I hope someone knowledgable may look at it!

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[MichaelT]

MichaelT I am going the B2B route with the identical battery as you. I will be very interested to see if your split charge does enough coupled with solar - mine is Votronic 250 Digi Duo with 200A?W solar.

I have just posted about the possibility of a Votronic D+ Simulator Pro to simplify the installation of a Votronic 1212-30 B2B. I hope someone knowledgable may look at it!

davidroxburgh I have Votronic 165 Duo so have set that to Lifepo setting and so far its charging albeit slowly due to time of year. Will let you know regarding charging as I am away in a couple of weeks so will see how long it takes to charge whatever is left. So far today solar has topped up from 79% to 86% with no usage.

 

[Burgo]

How does the KS Energy drop in product work? I was under the opinion that to fit lithium battery/ies you had to upgrade other items in the charging system.

 

[MichaelT]

How does the KS Energy drop in product work? I was under the opinion that to fit lithium battery/ies you had to upgrade other items in the charging system.

Take old batteries out fit new one is all i have done except change the charging profile on solar regulator and on board charger which i set to gel.

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[marchie]

How does the KS Energy drop in product work? I was under the opinion that to fit lithium battery/ies you had to upgrade other items in the charging system.

Straight swap, carried out by the Owner of KS Energy at his premises. He said there was no need for any upgrades, but he did alter the charging profile to Lithium. With the onset of Autumn in Scotland, the BMS was reporting Batty Temperature at about 16 to 18 degrees

Steve

 

[jongood]

the compressor fridge is reasonably high draw, at say 25A in 24h. in bright sunlight, that is ok as solar keeps up, but in sustained overcast conditions it takes it toll on the battery, and the issue is then recharge time using the alternator - the van alternator only puts in max 2round 20A, and this tapers too, so it can take a lot of driving to put back in a deep discharge with AGM..

I don't think Gel are much better and the ability to put in 60A into lithium using a B2B is a big attraction - allowing replacement of a lot of Amps in a short time period driving

We've got 2x220 Gels, they are quite old but still pretty good. They're fine with low power stuff but voltage soon goes down with heavier draws. Personally I'm reluctant to go below 50% . If I was replacing I would definitely go for lithium because the effective capacity is 30% more and I could then recharge a lot faster.

 

[jongood]

Take old batteries out fit new one is all i have done except change the charging profile on solar regulator and on board charger which i set to gel.

How is your engine charging set up? Direst from alternator or B2b and is it effective?

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[MichaelT]

How is your engine charging set up? Direst from alternator or B2b and is it effective?

As far as I know direct from alternator I don't think i have a B2B which is why I am going to see what happens. Hoping solar will do most work but we normally only stay on site for a day or 2 so driving will top up the solar unless we have EHU. If I find I am not getting enough charge and there is nothing wrong I may have to get a B2B fitted but lots of people on here have just dropped the batteries in and have not had issues.

 

[marchie]

As far as I know direct from alternator I don't think i have a B2B which is why I am going to see what happens. Hoping solar will do most work but we normally only stay on site for a day or 2 so driving will top up the solar unless we have EHU. If I find I am not getting enough charge and there is nothing wrong I may have to get a B2B fitted but lots of people on here have just dropped the batteries in and have not had issues.

Cloudy and dark in 'the Sunny Kingdom of Fife'. 3pm today, Solar says 21.09v, produced 60Kwh today and Lithium 100% SOC, at 13.68 in Float. Peak today 14.21v and 67% of time on Float or Absorption. Energy consumption today 10wh [as every day over the 2 weeks that Brunhilde has been parked up]. Engine Battery [from Burstner Control Panel] about 12.3v/12.4v, certainly well clear of the 12.25 marker.

Steve

 

[Al n Val]

You are correct in that Gel and lithium out perform AGM. If your charging set up is set for AGM you might want to consider this newish type of AGM Battery which can be safety discharged lower than your standard AGM and has a lot of cycles.

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

I fitted these Leoch PLC batteries Phil and tbh I simply cannot fault them, we’ve used these more or less all day everyday, inverter on and used kettle, toaster, tv and lights and never once have I seen the batteries less than 82% and very usually back up to 100% by 9.30am.
Yes Lithium are better that I know but quite a bit more expensive and i’ve not had to replace any chargers to charge them.

I’ve 280w of solar, Victron MPPT smart solar controller and DC to DC charger
5 years warranty on the batteries as well

Works very well

Al

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[BouncyBoatFolk]

You are correct in that Gel and lithium out perform AGM. If your charging set up is set for AGM you might want to consider this newish type of AGM Battery which can be safety discharged lower than your standard AGM and has a lot of cycles.

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

Looking at the spec for above I noted they are about 25mm taller than most "under drivers seat " AGM type batteries [ mostly 190mm ?].
Have I understood the spec as being down to 70% D.O.D. ?
31kg. Varta 26kg.
Mike.

 

[PhilandMena]

Looking at the spec for above I noted they are about 25mm taller than most "under drivers seat " AGM type batteries [ mostly 190mm ?].
Have I understood the spec as being down to 70% D.O.D. ?
31kg. Varta 26kg.
Mike.

I don't see this claim (70%DOD) in the spec sheet but could have missed and also aware other manufacturers of Pure lead carbon batteries making similar claims about high discharge. More lead better performance as a rule of thumb. I do fancy them but have a good set of LA on at the moment.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Gel

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[Otter Spotter]

I am just fitting a KS Energy under seat 200A Lithium battery, got it all in and just testing the charge on solar etc. before finally fitting it place and tidying up a few things. Half the weight and smaller footprint than the 2 Varta I removed. View attachment 544430

What did it cost please ?

 

[marchie]

What did it cost please ?

@gerrymcg in Post #7 said £1199, and if you wander over to Stourport, Neal fits the battery FOC. One thing I forgot to mention, my Lead Acid Battery was 190mm tall, but the Lithium is 215mm,so had to raise the brackets in the seating area [more swearing and scraped knuckles ...]

Steve

 

[MichaelT]

@gerrymcg in Post #7 said £1199, and if you wander over to Stourport, Neal fits the battery FOC. One thing I forgot to mention, my Lead Acid Battery was 190mm tall, but the Lithium is 215mm,so had to raise the brackets in the seating area [more swearing and scraped knuckles ...]

Steve

Yeah I noticed that but I sat the seat back on and it was OK I think....

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