Propane Calor Gas Refils? (2 Viewers)

[StitchUp]

We use two 6Kg (Orange) Calor gas bottles in our van. To refill locally costs £37, that is swap empty for full.

I notice on eBay there are these:

I'm unsure if it's easy to find refil stations - do you do it yourself - I'm told it's a lot cheaper or is it a no go?

The eBay fitting is circa £30

Any advice/comments?

Thanks

 

[steve69]

I have had no problem obtaining refills near Brighton? In addition they also supplied me with a completely new 6kg as a spare.

Brighton?. Great! Only 300 miles from where i live. Long way to go for a 6kg Calor exchange.

 

[Minxy]

People who don't think it is dangerous definitely should not (NOT) refill Calor bottles themselves.

JJ

Corrected that for you!

 

[Lenny HB]

No they don’t.
That stopped a few years ago they are all returned to France for filling .
Calor really has pulled away from the Leisure market.

Oh well, I was right -- in the past.

 

[JJ]

L

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[JJ]

Oh please stop it...

You simply don't understand...

...and the moment I feel the need to have my posts corrected by you is the moment I quit...

JJ

 

[Minxy]

Oh please stop it...

You simply don't understand...

...and the moment I feel the need to have my posts corrected by you is the moment I quit...

JJ

Read it again ... You missed the

 

[barny]

This a very dangerous practice as there is no safety mechanism to stop it filling up and therefore explode. DO NOT USE!!!!

 

[triky]

For any requirement to fill an under vehicle LPG storage tank ,,if you are in KENT .The Co-oP service station at Minster on the A299 (Ramsgate Rd ) near Manston airfield ,has pumps 7 & 8 at 89p Ltr,,( 21/7/23 .

 

[meanders]

I found this on the on the HSE site:

Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002
These regulations apply to work situations when a dangerous substance is present and presents a risk to physical safety from, in particular, fire or explosion. For LPG, when the supplier has provided an installation (eg tank) that meets the relevant standards, then the duties that fall on to the user will be to ensure that the necessary conditions under these regulations for ensuring safety are maintained, provide measures to deal with emergencies and make sure their own activities do not adversely affect the storage tank.

While it's primarily concerned with the filling station management, the highlighted part clearly cascades those duties onto the user. A breach is therefor unlawful I believe, but perhaps one of our legally trained people will confirm or otherwise.

The duties of DSEAR include:

• put control measures in place to either remove those risks or, where this is not possible, control them
• put controls in place to reduce the effects of any incidents involving dangerous substances
• prepare plans and procedures to deal with accidents, incidents and emergencies involving dangerous substances

I suspect the 'It's perfectly OK' folks will get zero sympathy from the HSE in the event of an incident as there is no Risk Assessment and therefore no 'controls'. Worryingly, nor will the affected filling station even if they have signs up saying that cylinders cannot be refilled. How long before they all think that it's no longer worth the risk of stocking LPG? That way, all of us who have invested in safe refillable systems will be punished for the misdeeds of the smart a****s! Those remaining LPG sales are likely to only sell to vehicles that need it for motive power.

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[stevewagner]

Not sure Calor have directly said refilling their cylinders is illegal. They have said it's dangerous and is also against their own t&cs which given that you hire a cylinder rather than own it means the refilled is in breach of contract.

Refilling on a commercial basis by a lpg supplier would be a big problem for that supplier against all sorts of regulations and duties of care. Similarly even an individual refilling a cylinder in the UK, whilst that individual may have limited duty of care, the supplying station has many issues under
Health and Safety at Work Act, the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations, and the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations.

An old calor article: https://www.calor.co.uk/news-and-vi...refilling-of-lpg-cylinders-at-petrol-stations

Don't forget C.O.S.H.H.

 

[Basildog]

This document and several other industry publications specifically state that the pump operators are deemed to be responsible as they become the filler .
We have always understood from our suppliers that the filling of exchangeable cylinders whilst not illegal would be viewed as unlawful and definitely not in compliance with industry codes of practice etc .
For a few pence we aren’t interested and regularly refuse to serve customers

https://www.liquidgasuk.org/uploads/DOC5A27C00A04169.pdf

 

[Minxy]

Corrected that for you!

Read it again ... You missed the

Ha-ha ... I can't see the posts I replied too ... I'm obviously being ignored now!

 

[The Wino]

I have a butane torch I carry in my toolkit, it's refillable from an aerosol, the only instructions are don't smoke and to do it in a well ventilated area. I appreciate it's a lot smaller than a van's setup, but it could still spoil your day if you got it wrong, but it doesn't mention that you will be breaking any law by refilling one gas receptacle from another ?

Presumably it's designed to be diy refilled calor cylinders aren't gasit are hence they can be diy filled. It's not that difficult to understand!

 

[Pausim]

I have a butane torch I carry in my toolkit, it's refillable from an aerosol, the only instructions are don't smoke and to do it in a well ventilated area. I appreciate it's a lot smaller than a van's setup, but it could still spoil your day if you got it wrong, but it doesn't mention that you will be breaking any law by refilling one gas receptacle from another ?

Butane is a very different gas and has a much lower pressure than propane. At room temperature a butane bottle will be at around 30psi but a propane one will be nearer 140psi. They need completely different rules and handling.

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[Charlie57]

A butane torch refilling from an aerosol and a 13kg bottle refilling from an LPG pump two completely different games there

 

[Boldly]

If butane so much safer why are most bottles propane? It's not often zero degrees.

 

[steve69]

If butane so much safer why are most bottles propane? It's not often zero degrees.

It doesn't have to be zero outside for butane to stop flowing. The flow of butane will eventually stop below 10 degrees C. as the bottle temperature will drop to zero degrees with use.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

How do they stop lpg tanks on vehicles being filled more than 80% with the forecourt pump?

We other an Ullage Valve set at 80% liquid fill (liquid vents when it's time to switch the pump off or with an inbuilt liquid level internal valve.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

If butane so much safer why are most bottles propane? It's not often zero degrees.

Butane is not safer except that the stored pressure is much lower than propane. In fact a butane leak is more destructive than the equivalent propane leak. The calorific value of butane is higher than propane. That is why we burn propane at a slightly higher regulated pressure than butane (14"wg versus 11"wg).
The most dangerous thing I see is keeping a connected and turned on propane underneath the bed without a sealed locker with external sealed drop vents next to a diesel or gas heating system.
Vapourised LPG with available oxygen is approximately 11 times more explosive power than TNT.

Trouble is the Darwin rule for the unsafe users can so easily kill innocent people not involved.

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[Barti Ddu]

What a load of tosh.

Simple mathematics gets you 80% of 22 litres.

If you are incapable that's OK not everyone has the same abilities but don't judge others by your failings.

One additional consideration not previously mentioned is that this relies entirely on the accuracy (or not) of the forecourt LPG Autogas dispenser.

Petrol and diesel pumps are prescribed equipment for the purposes of UK weights and measures legislation. Their design and construction is regulated and their required accuracy is plus or minus 0.5%.

LPG dispensers in contrast are not presecibed equipment in the UK and never have been. There are no regulations pertaining to them and no stated legal tolerances. Many LPG dispensers are also "temperature compensated" (referenced to 15'C) so on a cold day you will actually get a little less than the indicated volume, and on a hot day, a little more.

Additionally, unlike petrol and diesel dispensers, that will be regularly inspected and tested by local authority Trading Standards/ W&M inspectors, no regular independent accuracy testing will have been performed on Autogas dispensers.

If you're using a Gaslow cylinder that automatically cuts off at 80% this is of little concern (other than potentially being over or under charged for the delivery), but if you're relying on the displayed volume on the dispenser to safely fill a standard calor bottle to 80% then pump innacuracies provides yet another variable that can help cause all the slices in the Swiss cheese to line up so the holes perfectly align.

Still feeling so lucky?!

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

What a load of tosh.

Simple mathematics gets you 80% of 22 litres.

If you are incapable that's OK not everyone has the same abilities but don't judge others by your failings

What a load of tosh.

Simple mathematics gets you 80% of 22 litres.

If you are incapable that's OK not everyone has the same abilities but don't judge others by your failings.

I could explain but I have neither time, patience or crayons available!

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

Presumably it's designed to be diy refilled calor cylinders aren't gasit are hence they can be diy filled. It's not that difficult to understand!

You do not fill it from either a pressure pump capable of 200 psi. or with propane at 120 psi in the bottle. It is virtually impossible to overfill with butane.hence such devices being legal with butane.

 

[EML]

Wow. 10 pages in less than 4 weeks, plus someone who spelt out 'HSE' in full. I knew there was a reason I didn't have gas.