Motorhome Rear Axle Overloaded (1 Viewer)

[Lenny HB]

What I find vague is that when you choose factory fitted cost options the advertised MIRO doesn't change. For Instance Fiat's new 9 speed auto box adds 19 kg to the mass in service and so far I've only seen it shown in Weinsberg's new brochures which comprehensively lists the weight of everything available.

C of C should have two lines, MIRO which is the design weight the one they quote in the brochures and Technical Mass in Running Order which is the weight it left the factory including fitted extras.

 

[andyman]

I looked into buying a Pilote, the numbers just didn’t add up.
The payload was 500kg, but no passenger, 1 gas bottle, no water, half a tank of fuel, one has battery, and 75kg driver. Can’t recall the payload in the garage, if you added it all up it didn’t work.

 

[Vipar]

If my neighbors saw my Mrs coming out in the morning with no war paint on they would quickly turn their van around. That’s why I always wear sunglasses to protect my eyes.

 

[Jonno1103]

C of C should have two lines, MIRO which is the design weight the one they quote in the brochures and Technical Mass in Running Order which is the weight it left the factory including fitted extras.

Lenny I suppose that as the weight difference up to 150bhp & comfortmatic is 17.5kg, they don't have to change anything as it falls within the + or - 5% error margin all builders are allowed. I have a 635 kg payload so if it falls within 32 kg they can keep quiet. The onus is on us to remember but again if as an owner I was that concerned (I'm not) about the margin is there more to be said regarding the argument that the van overall was unsuitable in terms of the payload in the first place?

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny I suppose that as the weight difference up to 150bhp & comfortmatic is 17.5kg, they don't have to change anything as it falls within the + or - 5% error margin all builders are allowed. I have a 635 kg payload so if it falls within 32 kg they can keep quiet. The onus is on us to remember but again if as an owner I was that concerned (I'm not) about the margin is there more to be said regarding the argument that the van overall was unsuitable in terms of the payload in the first place?

I've had 3 Hymer's technical Mass has always been accurate.

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[Louis]

My grandparents have been dead for centuries as have my parents, what the hell is that about, I'm going for 4 nights, 5 days We are having Christmas at my wife parents North of Birmingham, I am with them for 6 bldy weeks in the summer and would rather not have them with us in Wales even if they authorised only them

Thats ok no need for Grandparents North of Birmingham ?

 

[peterc10]

Lenny I suppose that as the weight difference up to 150bhp & comfortmatic is 17.5kg, they don't have to change anything as it falls within the + or - 5% error margin all builders are allowed. I have a 635 kg payload so if it falls within 32 kg they can keep quiet. The onus is on us to remember but again if as an owner I was that concerned (I'm not) about the margin is there more to be said regarding the argument that the van overall was unsuitable in terms of the payload in the first place?

I think you may have misunderstood what the percentage error margin is applied to. It is applied to the MIRO not the payload. If your 635kg payload is on a 3.5t MGW the MIRO is 2865kg so 5% of that is 143kg. As I understand it that is how much the payload will be reduced at the top end.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

If my neighbors saw my Mrs coming out in the morning with no war paint on they would quickly turn their van around. That’s why I always wear sunglasses to protect my eyes.

“Dead man walking“ comes to mind

 

[596]

596 what does the v5c show as maximum permissable mass in section F1?

Absolutely ZERO, sold it so this is just a copy of the V5C I have.

 

[Paddywack]

HOW can it be crap after sales when I have 2 x Swift engineers at my home repairing an issue found 2 days earlier?

I actually think that some people are regretting buying foreign vehicles now as they are being turned away from UK sites for having O/S doors

Good aftersales service wouldn't need two Swift monkeys at your home repairing a defective product.

Just so you know what it looks like it might be as much as the dealer sending on the weight upgrading certificate free of charge. Registered post of course.

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[hilldweller]

Just for clarification here is the van, huge payload for 6.48 metre length, GVW 4900kg. Shame you can't see the twin rear wheels. View attachment 344483View attachment 344486View attachment 344486

I'd be careful there, it appears Joda is about to pick it up.

 

[596]

Good aftersales service wouldn't need two Swift monkeys at your home repairing a defective product.

Just so you know what it looks like it might be as much as the dealer sending on the weight upgrading certificate free of charge. Registered post of course.

Sorry, there was an issue after I bought it and within 2 days I have 2 Swift engineers on my drive to fix it, is THAT after sale or not, I really think you are being a little bit of a silly billy, try reading my post again ?

 

[lunarman]

Absolutely ZERO, sold it so this is just a copy of the V5C I have.

I meant what is the Maximum Permissable mass of the new swift on the V5c.

 

[596]

I meant what is the Maximum Permissable mass of the new swift on the V5c.

It’s not back yet but here is the plate

 

[Minxy]

What is the main factor that determines the Max Rear Axle weight?
1. Knowing that Alko Chassis, are popular and are assembled just like an adults Mechano Kit in that they have main spars with cross sections that are all mechanically bolted together, what is it that separates the "light" from the "heavy"? is it the gauge/size of the galvanised steel used or do they just add more support spars?

Not having had an Alko chassis before I can't say what the difference is 'in the flesh' but I believe there are 3 types that Carthago use: super-lightweight, lightweight and standard. What their construction is I don't know however the super-lightweight ones are used for the Compactline models which are only 2.12m wide, the lightweight ones are use for some normal width models, and I assume the standard weight ones are for the larger (more luxurious) models.

2.What is main characteristic determining the rear axle weight between the standard 2000KG & 2250KG is it the cart springs the van is running on? I ask this because as we know fitting air assist rear air bags can uprate the rear axle via the likes of SV Tech certification from 2000KG to 2250KG.on the standard cart springs.
Therefore could the rear axle weight be further increased from say 2250KG to say 3000KG by uprating the cart springs to heavier gauge ones?

I had a chat with SVTech on Wednesday about our Carthago's MAM uprating from 3700kg to 3850kg (dealer paying as they agreed to register it at 3850kg but didn't!) and the chap said we can go up to 3850kg without modification, this will still leave the rear axle at 2000kg max. If we want we can go to 2240kg on the rear but this would require rear air assist suspension to accommodate it (MAM overall would remain at 3850kg) - our tyres are already at a high enough load rating so we wouldn't need to change them. He said we could NOT go above that though so to answer your question I don't think anything you do will allow you to take the light Alko chassis (ie normally 3500kg) any higher than 3850kg with a max rear axle of 2240kg. If you want more you need to buy one with the heavy chassis to start with.

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[Barclaybasher]

I find the problem with my 3.8t A class on a Ducato Maxi chassis is not enough weight on the front axle even when empty. I have spun the front wheels even on a slight slope in the wet - and damp grass - forget it!

The large garages on many MHs do tempt you to think you can carry more than probably it should -

what are they for then?

 

[Louis]

Apology accepted, I will keep you updated on the wonky cupboard issue ?

?

 

[bigtwin]

as I always say a little knowledge is dangerous!

You‘re a dangerous man; but getting more pussycat-like with every day! ?

Ian

 

[Jonno1103]

I think you may have misunderstood what the percentage error margin is applied to. It is applied to the MIRO not the payload. If your 635kg payload is on a 3.5t MGW the MIRO is 2865kg so 5% of that is 143kg. As I understand it that is how much the payload will be reduced at the top end.

What your saying then is that Roller Team can sell the Pegaso 590 weighing 3008 kg but continue to advertise it as 2865 kg?

 

[peterc10]

What your saying then is that Roller Team can sell the Pegaso 590 weighing 3008 kg but continue to advertise it as 2865 kg?

That is what I have been told. Maybe Lenny HB can confirm it or not.

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[Lenny HB]

That is what I have been told. Maybe Lenny HB can confirm it or not.

It's within the 5% so technically OK.
Everyone I know with Carthago's they are always around 130kg over brochure weight.

 

[TinaLes]

Not having had an Alko chassis before I can't say what the difference is 'in the flesh' but I believe there are 3 types that Carthago use: super-lightweight, lightweight and standard. What their construction is I don't know however the super-lightweight ones are used for the Compactline models which are only 2.12m wide, the lightweight ones are use for some normal width models, and I assume the standard weight ones are for the larger (more luxurious) models.


I had a chat with SVTech on Wednesday about our Carthago's MAM uprating from 3700kg to 3850kg (dealer paying as they agreed to register it at 3850kg but didn't!) and the chap said we can go up to 3850kg without modification, this will still leave the rear axle at 2000kg max. If we want we can go to 2240kg on the rear but this would require rear air assist suspension to accommodate it (MAM overall would remain at 3850kg) - our tyres are already at a high enough load rating so we wouldn't need to change them. He said we could NOT go above that though so to answer your question I don't think anything you do will allow you to take the light Alko chassis (ie normally 3500kg) any higher than 3850kg with a max rear axle of 2240kg. If you want more you need to buy one with the heavy chassis to start with.

Hi Minxy Girl
I wasn't so much trying to be van or manufacturer specific, as we all know about the "Light" & "Heavy" Alko chassis variations I think.
I did know about the rear axle upgrade to 2240KG with air assist as we are doing that, and I would recommend doing the same as most of the weight will be over the back axle, and 2240KG will be easily reached.
As far as I know the air assist is to mainly stiffen up the sway on bends and take some strain off the existing single leaf cart springs. However I have never heard of anyone being advised to, or going for a heavier double HD cart springs which are readily available, and I think are fitted to some of the heavier MH's.
I suppose the only way of knowing would be to ask someone like SV Tech, as to why a spring upgrade is never mentioned, I am sure there must be a reason.
When I get some time, I will give them a call and ask them.
Best wishes.
Les

 

[peterc10]

Hi Minxy Girl
I wasn't so much trying to be van or manufacturer specific, as we all know about the "Light" & "Heavy" Alko chassis variations I think.
I did know about the rear axle upgrade to 2240KG with air assist as we are doing that, and I would recommend doing the same as most of the weight will be over the back axle, and 2240KG will be easily reached.
As far as I know the air assist is to mainly stiffen up the sway on bends and take some strain off the existing single leaf cart springs. However I have never heard of anyone being advised to, or going for a heavier double HD cart springs which are readily available, and I think are fitted to some of the heavier MH's.
I suppose the only way of knowing would be to ask someone like SV Tech, as to why a spring upgrade is never mentioned, I am sure there must be a reason.
When I get some time, I will give them a call and ask them.
Best wishes.
Les

I think you are getting a bit confused. Alko chassis does not have leaf springs. They use a torsion bar system, which is why they ride better. The Fiat chassis, which comes in various different types, use leaf springs. You can tell them apart by the colour. Alko Chassis is always galvanised steel, whereas the Fiat chassis is white painted steel.

Here is some more info on the Alko chassis.

 

[tonyidle]

I suppose the only way of knowing would be to ask someone like SV Tech, as to why a spring upgrade is never mentioned, I am sure there must be a reason.

I suspect it's because air is probably cheaper, adjustable, and offers a smoother ride.

 

[Steve N Tracy]

What your saying then is that Roller Team can sell the Pegaso 590 weighing 3008 kg but continue to advertise it as 2865 kg?

The only surefire way to make sure you are within the legal weights is to weigh the vehicle in full travelling trim, We have a Pegaso 590, with extras added, 2nd battery, towbar, sat dish, I had it weighed, with full water, fuel clothes etc, 2 electric bikes on towball mounted carrier, simulated fridge load and both of us in it, the figures are front axle 1582 kg rear axle 1760 kg so total 3342 kg so leaving a margin of 150 kg checked on approved weighbridge and reich weight plates, there was 7 kg diffirence between the weighbridge and the reich plates. Never weighed it empty but it must have been a fair bit under the manufactures ex factory weight.

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[DBK]

L

Had an email from someone who wants to remain anonymous while they negotiate with their dealer.

Essentially, they purchased a new German motorhome a short while ago and were happy with it. Then took to reading some of our threads about payload. So loaded it with what they consider essentials and took it to the weighbridge to discover that the rear axle was 100 kg overloaded. The response they got from the dealer was not encouraging.

I don't know any more than that at the moment (I've asked a few questions) I'm guessing this model has a rear garage, and while some vans do have a decent payload, if you place the bulk of that payload behind the rear axle then you might hit similar problems.

Looking at it from the manufacturer's viewpoint this practice will only increase.

Since 1997 those passing their driving test haven't been given the C1 class. So in round numbers anyone under 40 can't drive a MH over 3.5t unless they have done another driving course which from memory costs around £1K if arranged privately.

I can see MH dealers running driving courses if they want to sell MHs over 3.5t in the future.

Or sell 3.5t MHs which are more 3.8 or 4.1 and so on...but sold as 3.5t.

 

[Vipar]

How can 596 post if he is banned (Jim ?)

 

[Fontie]

How can 596 post if he is banned (Jim ?)

He posted before the ban was put in place

 

[pandas]

I think you are getting a bit confused. Alko chassis does not have leaf springs. They use a torsion bar system, which is why they ride better. The Fiat chassis, which comes in various different types, use leaf springs. You can tell them apart by the colour. Alko Chassis is always galvanised steel, whereas the Fiat chassis is white painted steel.

Here is some more info on the Alko chassis.

We used to have leaf spring in our previous Hymer, weight plated as 4250 and I was very pleased we added air suspension only sad it took as 3 years to make the change!
Our's now has an Alko chassis with the torsion bar and although we thought we might add air suspension we find the ride so much better that we are happy not to. plated as 4500kg.

 

[Minxy]

Hi Minxy Girl
I wasn't so much trying to be van or manufacturer specific, as we all know about the "Light" & "Heavy" Alko chassis variations I think.

Ah, but there's the super-light one now which is what Carthago also use, I'm not aware of anyone else that does.

I did know about the rear axle upgrade to 2240KG with air assist as we are doing that, and I would recommend doing the same as most of the weight will be over the back axle, and 2240KG will be easily reached.

Exactly, we've decided to get SAP's semi-air fitted to the rear, hopefully will be done by the end of next week.

As far as I know the air assist is to mainly stiffen up the sway on bends and take some strain off the existing single leaf cart springs. However I have never heard of anyone being advised to, or going for a heavier double HD cart springs which are readily available, and I think are fitted to some of the heavier MH's.
I suppose the only way of knowing would be to ask someone like SV Tech, as to why a spring upgrade is never mentioned, I am sure there must be a reason.
When I get some time, I will give them a call and ask them.
Best wishes.
Les

Adding an extra leaf springs on each side is probably not cost effective especially since it would make sense to fit 2 new springs to each side rather than one new and one old. As steel isn't cheap and neither is labour its probably cheaper, and gives a better result, by adding semi-air instead. It has been suggested occasionally on the forum for older MHs to have a second leaf fitted, or replace the existing single ones with new single ones, but I suspect it only makes sense if someone is doing the work themselves so no high labour charges.

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