Motorhome payload and MIRO help (1 Viewer)

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

We have a 2000/2001 fiat Ducato 1.9td coachbulit motorhome with 6 fitted seatbelts.
4 are inertia type forward facing and 2 are lap belts rear facing.
Our layout is mid table to seat 4, with a second table and 2 opposite single seats to the near side rear.
Bathroom is to the rear and kitchen is mid van nearside, opposite the 4 person table and seating.
To the front is the overcab bed.
What details we have state this is a 5 berth ( 2 overcab double / treble - ? it’s massive), 2 on the double mid dinette and a single at the rear on the single dinette.
There are usually only 2 of us plus a small dog travelling, but occasionally could be 4 , split 2 adults and 2 small children under 9 years, plus the dog.
I have looked at the vin plate under the bonnet and the following is recorded on the plate:
1. 3200kg
2. 4800kg
3. 1690kg
4. 1750kg.
I have been following the supposedly motorhome payload scandal discussions and the details as posted by Jim with the 180kg guide given for essentials, but I am unsure how to work out the MIRO and don’t know what this even is.
The van was bought pre owned and with a sort of generic produced instructions, which to be fair are fairly good and informative , BUT...
The stated maximum unladen mass is 2605kg
The stated maximum gross mass is 3400kg
The stated payload is 796kg
The stated towing weight is 850kg
The paperwork we have has / was part produced in conjunction with the importing and selling dealers and is a generalisation of instructions taken from motorhomes available around this time of manufacture.
Our conversion is a Ci camping car and the model is known as an Arabella, supplied when new by Don Amott leisure, Burton.
The paperwork does contain some very good guidelines on loading and weights, but having seen the great interest in payloads and potential problems with insurance and the law, I want to be absolutely accurate and understand what we can carry and most importantly, legally and safely.
Sorry if this is a long post but having had some excellent advice from Funsters to other topics, I have tried to be as detailed as possible to avoid further questions, which I really should have detailed in the first place with my post in way of an explanation.
I am confident I can work out what weights extras will be, and will be very strict on my calculations.
We have no sat tv, levelling system, fixed side awning cassette or other, and no oven, but we do take a purpose made microwave,
Don’t take bikes but have a bike rack at the rear and don’t bother with a TV either.
All other items are easily covered in Jim’s 180kg essential list.
If anyone can help me with the MIRO or give me advice on my actual usable payload based on the VIN plate details, I would be very grateful.
ManyThanks
Iain

 

[Manic]

Best starting point would to go to a Weighbridge and get it weighed.
Also i would think there should be a converters weight plate somewher.

 

[Riverbankannie]

The only way to find out your actual weight on each axle is to go to a weighbridge.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

The only way to find out your actual weight on each axle is to go to a weighbridge.
Thanks Annie, but then what does that tell me other than the van total weight.
Then what?

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Best starting point would to go to a Weighbridge and get it weighed.
Also i would think there should be a converters weight plate somewher.

Can’t find a plate anywhere Manic.
Would an 19 year old van have one?

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Thanks Annie , but is that weighed loaded or unloaded , ie completely empty of all things except what are part of the original van?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Manic]

My 19 year old Hymer has.
you could search the web for Ci user groups.

 

[Riverbankannie]

My understanding is that the 4 weights on your plate are
1 max gross vehicle weight
2 max train weight
3max front axle
4 max rear axle

 

[Riverbankannie]

Thanks Annie , but is that weighed loaded or unloaded , ie completely empty of all things except what are part of the original van?

I weighed mine in holiday mode with both driver and passenger and water and fuel on board. Some take it empty and then calculate each person/clothes/bikes etc as added in. Remember a litre of water is one kilo.

You don’t need to know what’s part of the original van if you just weigh it as it is now.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Allanm]

Go to the weighbridge and get it weighed with everything and everyone aboard and see what the weight is. Then subtract that from the max weight ( shown on your vin plate as 3200kg) and if you get the axle weights ensure they are not over the individual axle weights shown on your vin plate ( 3&4)
You will then know your payload. Or lack of payload!

 

[SandraL]

Re the plate
1 3200 suggest this is gross vehicle mass, your max weight
2 4800 your train weight, ie van plus trailor
3 1690 front axle
4 1750 rear axle.

Most vans have the original fiat plate plus a converters plate and maybe an upgrade plate.
Suggest you search for more plates.

If you check online at the gov uk site for road tax, it will tell you the revenue weight, this should be same as your gross vehicle mass, and be same as your v5.
If at 3400 then it will tie in with your papers, but you will need another plate on the vehicle.

 

[tonka]

The converter plate on some vans can sometimes be fitted outside by the hab door or just inside one of the doors. So look there as well as under the bonnet.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Emmit]

If??? you can't find another plate, then, despite what it says in the paperwork
your Max Gross Vehicle weight at the moment is less than you think it is ie 3200kg
(and, correspondingly, your perceived payload is less)

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Go to the weighbridge and get it weighed with everything and everyone aboard and see what the weight is. Then subtract that from the max weight ( shown on your vin plate as 3200kg) and if you get the axle weights ensure they are not over the individual axle weights shown on your vin plate ( 3&4)
You will then know your payload. Or lack of payload!

Thanks Allanm , starting to make some sense now to me.
Int it confusing!?

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

If??? you can't find another plate, then, despite what it says in the paperwork
your Max Gross Vehicle weight at the moment is less than you think it is ie 3200kg
(and, correspondingly, your perceived payload is less)

Got it Emmott, thanks.
But the quoted paperwork states a

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Got it Emmott, thanks.
But the quoted paperwork states a

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Thanks Emmott, but the quoted payload stated is 796kg.
I take it that then when we start adding the essentials etc and clutter which I can calculate their weight using Jim's guide, when they are all adde in and then subtracted, I will be left ( hopefully) with a bit of spare capacity when also extra persons added, water, extra gas etc.
Does that seem right?

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Re the plate
1 3200 suggest this is gross vehicle mass, your max weight
2 4800 your train weight, ie van plus trailor
3 1690 front axle
4 1750 rear axle.

Most vans have the original fiat plate plus a converters plate and maybe an upgrade plate.
Suggest you search for more plates.

If you check online at the gov uk site for road tax, it will tell you the revenue weight, this should be same as your gross vehicle mass, and be same as your v5.
If at 3400 then it will tie in with your papers, but you will need another plate on the vehicle.

Checking now Sandra and going to have a Proper look, not just a man's look, as my wife calls it! Typical!?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[tonyidle]

Confusion arises when looking at the stated payload. Whatever that figure is it is best disregarded when you already own the vehicle. The unladen weight is rarely stated and often can't be found making the payload figure less than useful. The plated weights are as described above by other contributors so the simple answer is to weigh the van: weigh the front axle then the whole vehicle so you can subtract the former from the latter to give the rear axle weight. The three figures obtained must all be less than the what is on the plate for front, total, and rear respectively. Weighing is best done when the vehicle is loaded for a trip and set up as you intend to travel including passengers and pets. You'll then know whether you have any spare capacity or whether you need to reduce the load. (or whether you need to have the vehicle uprated).

 

[Lenny HB]

You say your paperwork states the MAM is 3400 kg, is that on the V5?
As it is what is on the V5 will be the weight you are limited to. As said there should be a third plate if the weights are different to the plate under the bonnet.

796 kg payload is irrelevant unless you know what the MIRO (Mass in Running Order) includes as the payload is the difference between MIRO and MAM (Max Authorised Mass).
Although there are EU guidelines for MIRO which are, Driver @75 kg, 20 Lt of water, 90% fuel & 1 x 11 kg Aluminium gas cylinder a lot of manufacturers don't keep to it.

 

[Grianan]

THE best forum name I have ever seen ...

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Emmit]

Lenny (above) is bang on,
"Although there are EU guidelines for MIRO which are, Driver @75 kg, 20 Lt of water, 90% fuel & 1 x 11 kg Aluminium gas cylinder a lot of manufacturers don't keep to it."

The thing is, we're all different. I don't weigh 75Kgs and therefore, allowing this and that is irrelevant.

Best practice is to strip the 'van of everything, as near as possible. Take out the gas bottle, run off the water, If the 'van has a full tank, OK, but if it isn't, do a Guesstimate as to how much is in there ie half a tank @40Lts weighs ball park 40Kgs.
Take the van to a weighbridge. Get out and have it weighed. While you're at it, weigh the front and back axles in isolation.

With all that information, you now know, by taking the weights obtained, what you will be allowed to put in it, (including you and Mrs Yogurt)

It may be that the 'increased' GVW is on your V5 but until you get a new plate showing this, you might find yourself arguing with some Official and possibly in a foreign country with not many legs to stand on.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

Re the plate
1 3200 suggest this is gross vehicle mass, your max weight
2 4800 your train weight, ie van plus trailor
3 1690 front axle
4 1750 rear axle.

Most vans have the original fiat plate plus a converters plate and maybe an upgrade plate.
Suggest you search for more plates.

If you check online at the gov uk site for road tax, it will tell you the revenue weight, this should be same as your gross vehicle mass, and be same as your v5.
If at 3400 then it will tie in with your papers, but you will need another plate on the vehicle.

Checked v5 document and weights are not recorded anywhere on the document other than engine size , classed as 2 axle rigid body private light goods (PLG) motor caravan , powered by heavy oil. And white in colour.
All engine numbers match, so what am I missing?

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

You say your paperwork states the MAM is 3400 kg, is that on the V5?
As it is what is on the V5 will be the weight you are limited to. As said there should be a third plate if the weights are different to the plate under the bonnet.

796 kg payload is irrelevant unless you know what the MIRO (Mass in Running Order) includes as the payload is the difference between MIRO and MAM (Max Authorised Mass).
Although there are EU guidelines for MIRO which are, Driver @75 kg, 20 Lt of water, 90% fuel & 1 x 11 kg Aluminium gas cylinder a lot of manufacturers don't keep to it.

Nope Lenny, no weights are on the V5 other than under F1. Max. Permissable mass excluding motorcycles, there are two boxes marked R and S.
R has the figure 16 next to it and S has the figure 17 next to it.
Don't think they are anything to do with anything.
This v5 is 16 months old, so is it a new type or does it not need any of these details due to it never having these details recorded from scratch.
And it is a real one, not one the grandkids drew up!?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Offagain]

Best starting point would to go to a Weighbridge and get it weighed.
Also i would think there should be a converters weight plate somewher.

Ours (Peugeot) has another plate but only because it’s been upgraded to 3850. If there isn’t another plate surely the weights you must adhere to are the ones on the VIN plate?

Checked v5 document and weights are not recorded anywhere on the document other than engine size , classed as 2 axle rigid body private light goods (PLG) motor caravan , powered by heavy oil. And white in colour.
All engine numbers match, so what am I missing?

Seems very odd there’s nothing on the V5. Ours is definitely on there. But it must be entered by the person who registers it so obviously was omitted during the import process in your van’s case. Our v5 says the vehicle is silver. When it’s very obviously not!

My driver says you can get it upgraded to 3440 by SV tech (other firms may be available ) as the sum of your two axles is that.

 

[SandraL]

As before, go online to gov.uk website for vehicle enquiry. As if you were checking road tax.
The details are available to anyone with just the reg number. They include the revenue weight of the van, same as max weight of van.
Maybe missing the revenue weight on the website if not on your v5, if so then will need to contact dvla to get resolved. If there then dvla could reissue the v5 complete with weight.

 

[Jonno1103]

My V5 is two months old and has:

[Y] Revenue weight 3500 KG GROSS.
F.1: Max permissible mass 3500.
G: Mass in service 2863.

Be aware though that putting 20 litres of freshwater in your tank may actually mean 30 litres as the boiler will also be filled.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Emmit]

Ours (Peugeot) has another plate but only because it’s been upgraded to 3850. If there isn’t another plate surely the weights you must adhere to are the ones on the VIN plate?


Seems very odd there’s nothing on the V5. Ours is definitely on there. But it must be entered by the person who registers it so obviously was omitted during the import process in your van’s case. Our v5 says the vehicle is silver. When it’s very obviously not!

My driver says you can get it upgraded to 3440 by SV tech (other firms may be available ) as the sum of your two axles is that.

The sum of our 'van is 3750Kgs but SV Tech would only up the MGW to 3700Kgs. I doubt they would up the OP weight to 3440Kgs. Someone, somewhere has already upped it to 3400Kgs but the OP can't find the 'Plate.

Just a thought Captain Yoghurtpot You haven't got, have you, in all that paperwork, a piece of paper measuring about 6" x 4" that has the details of the VIN No. of your 'van with a set of 4 numbers similar to the plate under your bonnet.

The Plate does not need to be metal. SV Tech issue a Plate that is paper to attach somewhere on the 'van.

It occured that you in fact may have a 'Plate' that has been issued by a team like SV Tech who have provided the technical expertise to produce a Plate for onward submission to DVLA.

 

[Theonlysue]

Forget about mass in running order. What's included varies from year to year.
Its mind blowing.
As you pay private light goods road tax total weight will be under 3.5t.
So going by the figures you've mentioned, max weight sound like 3 2t.
Put your bits in, your water, fuel passengers and anything else, and go to a weigh bridge.
That will tell you exactly where you are with your weight.
If it's over the 3.2t you can check if you can upplate.
If you go up to 3.5t, you can drive on car licence.
If you go over 3.5t, make sure you have the right licence to drive, and the road tax is cheaper.

 

[bigtwin]

Irrespective of all of the above, it’s very unlikely that you’ll have the payload to carry six people (and their clobber). If you average folks weight at 75Kg, you’ve got 450Kg right there.

Ian