Love The Lithium’s (2 Viewers)

[Gromett]

I will say this though. LTO batteries are coming on in leaps and bounds in the last 2-3 years.
I think we may actually start seeing these offered in motorhome friendly packages soon.
Although the nominal voltage may be an issue.

Li4Ti5O12 in case you were curious. I can never remember this one and have to look it up each time. LiFePO4 is easy to remember for some reason

The reason I mention LTO is that they are great at high currents and can work down to -20°C

 

[Ditcha]

We have 3 x 100 amp lithium batteries and about 300 W of solar (transporter energy batteries) they call them battle ready batteries in the USA I think

We did not change the 240 charger but we added the B2B charger also increased the size of power cables

Paul do you think you would of satisfied your power requirements with 2 X 100amp batteries or is there another reason to have 3, just you seem to be using hardly any of the capacity from day to day use?
I know you're in the sun at the moment and that helps things.

 

[Zepp]

Paul do you think you would of satisfied your power requirements with 2 X 100amp batteries or is there another reason to have 3, just you seem to be using hardly any of the capacity from day to day use?
I know you're in the sun at the moment and that helps things.

To be honest we have never dropped below 70% so I think we would of been fine with 2 x 100 amp batteries the only reason we put three in was because we relocated the batteries and thought we may as well put 3 in

Don’t forget we have the freezer running all the time

As others have said it’s the rate you can charger them

We have not been using the electric bikes due to lock down that will be the next big test but I’m sure the batteries will cope

Hope you are both ok and staying safe

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[Ditcha]

To be honest we have never dropped below 70% so I think we would of been fine with 2 x 100 amp batteries the only reason we put three in was because we relocated the batteries and thought we may as well put 3 in

Don’t forget we have the freezer running all the time

As others have said it’s the rate you can charger them

We have not been using the electric bikes due to lock down that will be the next big test but I’m sure the batteries will cope

Hope you are both ok and staying safe

Cheers Paul you might need the 3 when back in the UK but you have a good safety margin.
Hope you and Lynn are well stay safe mate

 

[Zepp]

Cheers Paul you might need the 3 when back in the UK but you have a good safety margin.
Hope you and Lynn are well stay safe mate

We are back at the end of March Dave and due to Lynne’s sister passing with COVID . Lynne may have to look after her dad

Forgot to say we were also using the electric kettle all the time ( until it broke ) lol and it made no difference to our power readings the batteries just sucked it up

May sell my hookup cable lol I can see Eddy having a busy year fitting batteries

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I see your MoHo is a Hymer and I presume you have Schaudt electrical kit on board, as I do in my Globecar.

After around 3 months since our van was Sorned (would have been in Spain now but for Covid), last week I went to the Storage Site where we keep it to check all was well. We are fortunate to have an EHU at this site and this has been on for the duration. The lithium (LIFOS, LiFePO4) leisure batteries were both fully charged (100% on the Bluetooth App) but the engine battery was flat and I had to jump start from our car. The Alarm System, Tracker etc are powered from the engine battery. The Schaudt Electroblock (inbuilt charger etc) specification says that with EHU priority is given to charging the Leisure Battery, with a float charge of up to 2 Amps going to the Engine Battery. This should be more than enough to meet the current drain of the Alarm, Tracker etc.

I have been puzzling as to the cause of my Engine Battery going flat. The electronic wizardry in the Electroblock monitors the voltage of the leisure battery. As these were fully charged and would give a “full” voltage reading to the Electroblock I wondered if this was shutting the charge regime off, including that to the Engine Battery, which was consequently slowly draining over a long period. Obviously, if my MoHo was in normal regular use this flat battery issue would not have occurred. To check if my thinking may be the cause, I have emailed Schaudt in Germany this afternoon (Herr Udo Lang has been very helpful in the past with my technical queries) and I will post whatever response I get. I have also asked him if this is cause of the problem and if I remove the fuses connecting the Leisure Batteries to isolate them and thus present zero voltage to the Electroblock monitoring, if a charge of 2 Amps will be provided to the Engine Battery.

You also mention the temperature constraints for charging and discharging lithium batteries. I do not expect -20 deg C, so no problem with discharging, but with the recent freezing conditions I was concerned about charging when the temperature fell below 0 deg C. Last week I had an exchange of emails with Solar Technology (the UK Importer of LIFOS batteries) and they confirmed that the inbuilt battery management system fully and automatically controls this. I reported this on another thread about Lithium Batteries. I obviously do not know if the BMS’s of other brands of LiFePO4 batteries have the same functionality.

With the Lithium battery system and Schaudt electrics I had exactly the same issue. Pre-lithium, the Schaudt unit would keep the engine battery charged up but noticed that it no longer did that, leaving the engine battery to slowly discharge itself. Fitting a battery master resolved it. Reading my “electronics for ducks” book gave me no clue as to why, but followed Eddie’s advice and no issues since

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[Ditcha]

We are back at the end of March Dave and due to Lynne’s sister passing with COVID . Lynne may have to look after her dad

Forgot to say we were also using the electric kettle all the time ( until it broke ) lol and it made no difference to our power readings the batteries just sucked it up

May sell my hookup cable lol I can see Eddy having a busy year fitting batteries

Hey Paul you've got a habit of knacking stuff

Sorry to hear about Lynne's sister.

 

[Raul]

I will say this though. LTO batteries are coming on in leaps and bounds in the last 2-3 years.
I think we may actually start seeing these offered in motorhome friendly packages soon.
Although the nominal voltage may be an issue.

Li4Ti5O12 in case you were curious. I can never remember this one and have to look it up each time. LiFePO4 is easy to remember for some reason

The reason I mention LTO is that they are great at high currents and can work down to -20°C

I know a couple of users of LTO cells, the blue 40ah made by yinglong. The cell voltage is 2,5v, for 48v pack (22 cells) is ok but, for 12v nominal you will be using 5 cells and go under 12v. I guess not a problem for some. They do charge under -15C deg, and can gobble in 5C at will.
I have access to this cells but expensive, 80 us dollars per cell plus bms for a house bank is very expensive. I’m in the hunt for a second hand Hyundai Kuna pack or Kia e Nero. Both these can be had for about 8k euros and a whopping 60kwh capacity, even if only 50kwh usable is still a better deal. There is a second use market for EV batteries already.

 

[Millcourt]

Worse case scenario...
Lithiums should not be kept at 100% soc (better with 80%) and starter battery should not be allowed to go to flat.

Yes, I was aware of the need to avoid leaving the lithium batteries sitting at 100% SOC. In non-Covid times I would not have had a problem as the MoHo would be in regular use. Regrettably, we are unable to park where we live, which would make it easy to keep an eye on battery status and have some control over charging. It is kept in secure storage some miles away and I have had to "abandon" it for almost 3 months. I left the EHU on in the hope of maintaining the AGM engine battery, which has a small but persistent drain because of the alarm, tracker etc. A "no win" situation it seems!

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[Zepp]

One thing I forgot to say , we are using a lot more gas

Heating / hot water / cooking / Fridge Freezer all running off gas it’s not a problem as gpl is so cheap in Spain

 

[Irishrover]

Great thread....Knowing nothing about Lithium Batteries this is very informative, Will be looking to fit them in the near future I think.

 

[Garry - June]

I’m loving the lithium’s they are not cheap but it’s just like having hookup

Cloud cover most of the day yesterday we watched a lot of tv also had the heating on all night
We also charged the phones and the dyson + a few other things and not forgetting the compressor freezer in the garage pulling about 5 amps per hour

The batteries were at 84% at 8 am this morning also used the inverter a few times for coffee and toast etc

It’s magic or witchcraft lol

I find this quite funny..... Lithium's are not magic.... the power you are getting from those batteries has to come from somewhere..... as with any system its getting the power from an outside source in to those batteries in the first place that's the key.... all batteries , whatever they are made of, are stores to hold all that power,,,,

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[Garry - June]

two,
Don’t doubt the lifespan of Lifepo4, some of my colleagues use them off grid for over 8 years with little degradation, less than 5%. There are off grid users specially in Australia with over 10 years of service and under 10% degradation. Few years ago the early pioneers have done the hard work for us and lots of data to help with best circling life.

Do not however be fooled in to thinking you can abuse Lithium's.... if you regularly run them below 20% you will serious affect their lifespan..

 

[Raul]

I find this quite funny..... Lithium's are not magic.... the power you are getting from those batteries has to come from somewhere..... as with any system its getting the power from an outside source in to those batteries in the first place that's the key.... all batteries are , whatever they are made of, is stores to hold all that power,,,,

The advantage of charge rate of Li is where is ahead of lead, and charging efficiency. If you got a small window that offers you a 1kwh to harvest, Li will take it. Pb will not and that window disappeared living you with incomplete charge. Li doesn’t care, it will top up as in when is available. As long as you have production capacity to cover consuption, Li wil come ahead of Pb.

 

[Raul]

Do not however be fooled in to thinking you can abuse Lithium's.... if you regularly run them below 20% you will serious affect their lifespan..

Who said anything about abuse? And what is abuse? As long as you are familiar with the limits of your battery, and stay away of the limits, is normal operation. I personally don’t come even close to manufacturer limits, I adopt a very conservative use for a long cycle life.

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[Jim]

Lithium's are not magic..

Maybe not, but their rate of charge is.

 

[Captain Birdseye]

Not wishing to knock Lithium, they still have finite capacity.
If the difference is so noticeable, my guess is that the old battery was due for renewal.
Let's not get carried away with the euphoria
Their value will be discovered in later years.

They do have finite capacity, however:
We only have one lithium 105ah battery, but it is massively better that a brand new 110ah conventioal battery because:
1/ it keeps it's voltage as it discharges, so things dont auto switch off due to low voltage.
2/ It accepts a high rate of charge, which makes a huge difference. Far more than I anticipated.
3/ it is designed for high discharge rates. We only use our inverter to charge electric batteries for our two ecectric bikes, and occasionaly a hairdryer.

We have 250w of solar on the roof, and sold our Efoy fuel cell because if necessary we can run the engine for a short time which charges the battery twelve times faster than the fuel cell, and that is on top of the solar.

 

[jonnystrong]

Well I was under the impression that we are in a National lockdown, this is the list on the Government website



Personally I cannot see any reason why any business in the leisure sector would want to flout the law.

Makes me wonder what other laws are being flouted and how they may deal with "laws" (Warranty) in the future

We closed, it is the right thing to do for our staff, our customers and ourselves

No doubt some will argue loopholes "businesses providing repair services may also stay open, where they primarily offer repair services" but its non essential as is the journey there and back legally.

I thought this post was about lithium batteries not the rights and stuff about lockdown - please start a separate post if you want to lecture on about a different topic. Thanks

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[Lenny HB]

Very few sensible people take there batteries to the limit on a regular basis. My van is coming up to 4 years old (I've only got Gels ) in that time only ever once taken them down to 20%.
That was last October I spent a week in a German hospital and the the boss in the van, couldn't drive at first when I got out. 14 nights on batteries with hardly any sun to charge them.
Exceptional circumstances normally never take them below 70%.

 

[Millcourt]

In Post #51 above, I explained what I thought was the cause of the problem with my engine battery not receiving the 2 Amp float/maintenance charge from the Schaudt Electroblock and promised to report back the response I obtained from Schaudt in Germany. It appears my reasoning is correct and the advice from Herr Lang is to use a separate charger connected directly to the engine battery for prolonged lay-up.

As I have EHU at the site where we store our MoHo, I have ordered a small maintenance charger and a fused lead to wire directly to the engine battery. The lead will be left permanently wired to the engine battery, with easy access from the drop down flap under the passenger seat. The charger is compact and will plug in to a nearby 13 amp socket and the output lead plugged into the socket on the lead from the battery, as and when needed. This will also enable me to switch off the power to the Electoblock and prevent unnecessary prolonged charging of the Lithium domestic batteries, which I will aim to leave at around 80% SOC (as mentioned by poppycamper earlier in this thread) when not in use for prolonged periods.

The charger and lead I mentioned should arrive from Amazon today...... so anther job for tomorrow. If of interest, the kit I selected is:

NOCO GENIUS1UK, 1-Amp Fully-Automatic Smart Charger, 6V And 12V Battery Charging Units, Battery Maintainer, Trickle Charger, And Battery Desulfator With Temperature Compensation: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike
and
NOCO GC002 X-Connect M6 Eyelet Terminal Accessory For NOCO Genius Smart Battery Chargers: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

 

[jonnystrong]

Is this post thread about lithium batteries (interesting) or interpretation and other views on the current lockdown (not interesting) .... maybe lockdown people can start another thread somewhere else please

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[Jim]

Is this post thread about lithium batteries (interesting) or interpretation and other views on the current lockdown (not interesting) .... maybe lockdown people can start another thread somewhere else please

Or is this thread about moaning about what should be in it?

Threads go where they go,. don't worry about it, if a thread needs to be hived off into another thread, that will happen.

 

[eddie]

I thought this post was about lithium batteries not the rights and stuff about lockdown - please start a separate post if you want to lecture on about a different topic. Thanks

It’s called a forum, I was asked a question, and I answered it

You don’t have to read replies you know

 

[Zepp]

I’m still upset learning that my batteries are. not magic
Just hope the beans I bought with them are real

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[Garry - June]

The advantage of charge rate of Li is where is ahead of lead, and charging efficiency. If you got a small window that offers you a 1kwh to harvest, Li will take it. Pb will not and that window disappeared living you with incomplete charge. Li doesn’t care, it will top up as in when is available. As long as you have production capacity to cover consumption, Li wil come ahead of Pb.

Totally agree....but that is dependant or your individual circumstances/use/demand.... when away in the summer our 400w of solar copes more than adequately with replenishing the LA batteries however quickly that's accomplished....and when away in winter or on our site we are plugged in anyway..... I'm not for one moment suggesting people shouldn't fit Lithium's....i am just pointing out they are not "Magic"... and for many..actually not necessary in the first place...

 

[BuilderBob]

Not wishing to hijack the OP, but it is very much related.
My self build is now ready for putting the batteries in, I reckon about 200 Ah should do, simple question.
Lead acid or Lithium?
and if Lithium, would 100Ah be sufficient?

 

[carolyn]

These are exactly the sort of lithium threads I like, they haven’t got too overcomplicated by electrickery yet. They are more about how people are using them and more simple numbers of solar panels to numbers of battery ratios.

We have a 1 year old PVC with a 140 amp gel battery and a 120 volt solar and a 3 way fridge just like on our previous van which did us fine, we would have struggled to keep electric bikes topped up off hook up except in height of summer if we’d used them a lot and hadn’t moved around frequently. We thought last year we’d get a feel of what we’d need but of course that didn’t happen. Hopefully we’ll get more use out of it this year.

No prizes for where we’ll go if/when we do decide to changeover, just look at where we live eddievanbitz ! I like to have a basic understanding but I’m happy to leave the details to the experts.

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[Zepp]

Not wishing to hijack the OP, but it is very much related.
My self build is now ready for putting the batteries in, I reckon about 200 Ah should do, simple question.
Lead acid or Lithium?
and if Lithium, would 100Ah be sufficient?

I’m no expert but you have to think how will I be using my motorhome and what do I want /need from my batteries

if you are going to be using campsites / aires and be on hookup just fit normal batteries

if you intend to be more hook up free I would fit lithium batteries but you have to think about how will you get the best out of them , ie charge rate if you intend to sit put you will need plenty of solar .

If you intend to tour a lot you will need a b2b charger

Also think about where you will be in the winters solar is not much use to you in the U.K.

I could not make my mind up should I get 1 or 2 lithium batteries so I bought 3

Also I would invest in a good battery monitor

you can never have to much power

 

[two]

I find this quite funny..... Lithium's are not magic.... the power you are getting from those batteries has to come from somewhere..... as with any system its getting the power from an outside source in to those batteries in the first place that's the key.... all batteries , whatever they are made of, are stores to hold all that power,,,,

Agree.
Batteries can be regarded simply as a "bucket of Amps". Lead buckets are bulkier than Lithium (and 'leak' a bit) but you have to put back whatever is taken out.
I see the primary benefit of Lithium as saving weight, which is more important for some than others.
I believe that you can abuse Lithium, and we still have much to learn in that respect. Experience will tell.
I suggest that owning a Lithium set-up should not encourage folk to start being profligate with their use of electricity. Regard any increase in capacity as an opportunity to become less anxious about running out of it rather than one to use more. Avoid kettles and continue to use it as a precious resource.

Regular low discharge should be discouraged. The BMS should throttle-back consumption towards the bottom end - but I don't think any do. The charger should require a user-request to charge (more slowly) above 80% - but I don't think any do. So I think it's all too easy to shorten the life of Lithium through ignorance. Sure, you can rapid charge Lithium, but I don't think it's good practice to if you can do so more gently. B2B will go 'hell-for-leather' to recharge as fast as it can but can the user dictate a slower rate of charge, knowing that their journey will be two hours or more? We seem to think that up to 90% of capacity is available from Lithium, but I think it should be more like 70% in practice. Just as you could get 90% of the capacity from of Lead, you may not achieve that many times.
I may be wrong. I've been misled by enthusiastic marketing many times before, but still retain a cautious optimism...

 

[Raul]

Not wishing to hijack the OP, but it is very much related.
My self build is now ready for putting the batteries in, I reckon about 200 Ah should do, simple question.
Lead acid or Lithium?
and if Lithium, would 100Ah be sufficient?

That all depends entirely on you consumption needs. If your daily consumption is up to 30ah, then a 100ah will be enough. This will allow for a rainy day in between, before you can charge back up, or unforeseen circumstances. But, as you get used to it, You will increase your consumption over time. If you have the funds and space I would go straight to 200ah. This will allow better peak discharge, greater autonomy in bad weather, less deep cycling resulting in long life as you will not be forced to charge to full or discharge to low.

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