Love The Lithium’s (1 Viewer)

[Steve and Denise]

Nothing wrong with the old accumulators, here in Lincolnshire not that many years ago (1989) some out of the way houses still had generators and accumulators.

 

[two]

More efficient too. If you are trying to harvest solar you waste 5% charging a lead acid battery (LiFePO4 only 1%) and if you are using something like a big inverter the higher Peukert’s exponent of lead acid also eats into your reserves.

- but hardly noticeable?

Weight is a bonus, I find the rate of charge and depth of use is where the real value lies . and that is immediate too.

agree that rate of charge would be an immediate benefit, if it mattered
depth of discharge would depend on compared available capacity

 

[Jim]

- but hardly noticeable?

agree that rate of charge would be an immediate benefit, if it mattered
depth of discharge would depend on compared available capacity

So now from waiting years to see the value you now agree that

The weight benefit is immediate, if it matters
The rate of Charge is an immediate benefit, if it matters

But you say discharge would depend on compared availability. Why?

Given two 100AH batteries, one lead acid the other Lifepo4
The depth of discharge on the Lithium would be immediately apparent. It will give more useable amp hours between charges.

No waiting for value at all, they are all considerable benefits that are immediate.

Lots of people look for reasons not to buy, but if Lfepo4 batteries were the same price as lead acid, most everyone would have them, and why not , the benefits are many and immediate.

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[Raul]

It’s allot worse than that. Round trip with lead is bad, for every 1kwh Consumed , you need to harvest 1,5kwh. I used to average 3kwh per day(not anymore) and needed to harvest 4,5kwh daily to split even. The float and bulk is a real energy waster.

 

[Raul]

Here is my data history for the past month and all the relevant figures

 

[two]

So now from waiting years to see the value you now agree that

The weight benefit is immediate, if it matters
The rate of Charge is an immediate benefit, if it matters

But you say discharge would depend on compared availability. Why?

Given two 100AH batteries, one lead acid the other Lifepo4
The depth of discharge on the Lithium would be immediately apparent. It will give more useable amp hours between charges.

No waiting for value at all, they are all considerable benefits that are immediate.

Lots of people look for reasons not to buy, but if Lfepo4 batteries were the same price as lead acid, most everyone would have them, and why not , the benefits are many and immediate.

I’ve not made myself clear.

If the selling point is that Lithium outlasts Lead, we’re buying on a promise. It’s one I’m prepared to believe but I still have reservations about the actual life expectancy compared to what’s been claimed.

My comparison between technologies is based on similar available (Ah) capacity. If you install the same available capacity (based on 50% for lead, and 90% for lithium), you shouldn’t notice much difference in time before the lights go dim. There might be a difference if you decide to use a high-power inverter though.

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[Raul]

two,
Don’t doubt the lifespan of Lifepo4, some of my colleagues use them off grid for over 8 years with little degradation, less than 5%. There are off grid users specially in Australia with over 10 years of service and under 10% degradation. Few years ago the early pioneers have done the hard work for us and lots of data to help with best circling life.

 

[Jim]

ve not made myself clear.

If the selling point is that Lithium outlasts Lead, we’re buying on a promise. It’s one I’m prepared to believe but I still have reservations about the actual life expectancy compared to what’s been claimed.

Ahh You're talking price. I bought for the benefits I outlined above, knowing those benefits came at a price. Even If they didn't last as long, I would still buy, to get those benefits, weight, rate of charge, depth of discharge.

 

[My Dog Likes Fishing]

I had 3 x 100amp lithium batteries fitted this time last year. They've been superb im really pleased with them. I have come across a problem since lockdown though.

My van is in storage as it can't be used. The van is set up with a battery master that charges the vehicle battery. Problem is when the temperature drops to below zero the batteries close down.

The van is fitted with WiFi and I lose the cctv cameras as everything shuts down. I get a message telling me the vehicle battery is down to a low level. I then have to go to the van to start it up.

This is a real problem and isn't helped by the fact the batteries don't reset themselves when the temperature gets well above freezing.

I have to go to the van and start it up before the batteries kick into life again. I thought about wrapping the batteries in insulation to protect them from the cold but was worried about fire risk.

Anybody else come across this problem? How did you resolve it?

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[Jim]

by the fact the batteries don't reset themselves when the temperature gets well above freezing.

What make are they?

 

[My Dog Likes Fishing]

Sterling

 

[My Dog Likes Fishing]

Sorry they could be Victron.

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[eddie]

What temperatures are we talking about?

 

[eddie]

Sorry they could be Victron.

Lol OK did Van Bitz install them? If so we can narrow it down to Sterling, Victron or Dometic

 

[Pausim]

- but hardly noticeable?

The 4% charging difference is self explanatory and perhaps not important to some but the Peukert factor can make a significant difference under load. My Victron battery monitor suggests setting the Peukert Exponent to 1.25 for a lead acid battery and 1.05 for a LiFePO4 one. With a battery capacity of say 100Ah and a draw of only 1A both batteries will perform the same, however if you increase the load to 10A the lead acid one will reach the 80% discharged point 2.5 hours before the Li one.

I used this calculator to work it out http://www.csgnetwork.com/batterylifecalc.html

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[Pausim]

Problem is when the temperature drops to below zero the batteries close down.

My Relion ones are ok to discharge down to -20C and they have never shut down. Charging below 0C has to be restricted but it should not affect normal discharge.

 

[My Dog Likes Fishing]

They are the red ones Eddie. Brilliant batteries until they get cold. Wouldn't be a problem but for lockdown. Can I insulate them?

 

[two]

Ahh You're talking price. I bought for the benefits I outlined above, knowing those benefits came at a price. Even If they didn't last as long, I would still buy, to get those benefits, weight, rate of charge, depth of discharge.

I’m not influenced that much by the price.
For me, Lithium = less weight and that’s its main attraction.
Depth of discharge = less weight, too (100Ah Lithium = 180Ah Lead).
I was just pointing out that there could be downsides which won't be immediately apparent.
I have some lithium-powered devices in which capacity has fallen-off unexpectedly. It may have been due to poor maintenance, but they failed well within their indicated lifespans. Where cost is more important, it may be better to replace cheap tech frequently than to be faced with a larger surprise unexpectedly.

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[two]

I had 3 x 100amp lithium batteries fitted this time last year. They've been superb im really pleased with them. I have come across a problem since lockdown though.

My van is in storage as it can't be used. The van is set up with a battery master that charges the vehicle battery. Problem is when the temperature drops to below zero the batteries close down.

The van is fitted with WiFi and I lose the cctv cameras as everything shuts down. I get a message telling me the vehicle battery is down to a low level. I then have to go to the van to start it up.

This is a real problem and isn't helped by the fact the batteries don't reset themselves when the temperature gets well above freezing.

I have to go to the van and start it up before the batteries kick into life again. I thought about wrapping the batteries in insulation to protect them from the cold but was worried about fire risk.

Anybody else come across this problem? How did you resolve it?

I'd guess that it's the battery management system that's doing this.
Maybe a bit overprotective, but to be expected if there's a long guarantee.

Insulation might extend the period before shut down but once it's cold it's cold and will take longer to warm up again. There are systems that warm the battery up (heated mat) but that's getting more complex and not something I'd subscribe to.

 

[Pausim]

I have some lithium-powered devices in which capacity has fallen-off unexpectedly.

There are many types of lithium batteries with very different chemistries. You will not find the LiFePO4 type used as leisure batteries in many other applications because they do not have the energy density needed for portable devices.

 

[Millcourt]

I had 3 x 100amp lithium batteries fitted this time last year. They've been superb im really pleased with them. I have come across a problem since lockdown though.

My van is in storage as it can't be used. The van is set up with a battery master that charges the vehicle battery. Problem is when the temperature drops to below zero the batteries close down.

The van is fitted with WiFi and I lose the cctv cameras as everything shuts down. I get a message telling me the vehicle battery is down to a low level. I then have to go to the van to start it up.

This is a real problem and isn't helped by the fact the batteries don't reset themselves when the temperature gets well above freezing.

I have to go to the van and start it up before the batteries kick into life again. I thought about wrapping the batteries in insulation to protect them from the cold but was worried about fire risk.

Anybody else come across this problem? How did you resolve it?

I see your MoHo is a Hymer and I presume you have Schaudt electrical kit on board, as I do in my Globecar.

After around 3 months since our van was Sorned (would have been in Spain now but for Covid), last week I went to the Storage Site where we keep it to check all was well. We are fortunate to have an EHU at this site and this has been on for the duration. The lithium (LIFOS, LiFePO4) leisure batteries were both fully charged (100% on the Bluetooth App) but the engine battery was flat and I had to jump start from our car. The Alarm System, Tracker etc are powered from the engine battery. The Schaudt Electroblock (inbuilt charger etc) specification says that with EHU priority is given to charging the Leisure Battery, with a float charge of up to 2 Amps going to the Engine Battery. This should be more than enough to meet the current drain of the Alarm, Tracker etc.

I have been puzzling as to the cause of my Engine Battery going flat. The electronic wizardry in the Electroblock monitors the voltage of the leisure battery. As these were fully charged and would give a “full” voltage reading to the Electroblock I wondered if this was shutting the charge regime off, including that to the Engine Battery, which was consequently slowly draining over a long period. Obviously, if my MoHo was in normal regular use this flat battery issue would not have occurred. To check if my thinking may be the cause, I have emailed Schaudt in Germany this afternoon (Herr Udo Lang has been very helpful in the past with my technical queries) and I will post whatever response I get. I have also asked him if this is cause of the problem and if I remove the fuses connecting the Leisure Batteries to isolate them and thus present zero voltage to the Electroblock monitoring, if a charge of 2 Amps will be provided to the Engine Battery.

You also mention the temperature constraints for charging and discharging lithium batteries. I do not expect -20 deg C, so no problem with discharging, but with the recent freezing conditions I was concerned about charging when the temperature fell below 0 deg C. Last week I had an exchange of emails with Solar Technology (the UK Importer of LIFOS batteries) and they confirmed that the inbuilt battery management system fully and automatically controls this. I reported this on another thread about Lithium Batteries. I obviously do not know if the BMS’s of other brands of LiFePO4 batteries have the same functionality.

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[two]

There are many types of lithium batteries with very different chemistries. You will not find the LiFePO4 type used as leisure batteries in many other applications because they do not have the energy density needed for portable devices.

I think there are many types of Lithium chemistry being used for leisure batteries, too.
Even more if you include integrated BMSs.

 

[dipsie]

Dorset diver, I was one of the drivers on my way to Tesco to Click & Collect our fortnightly grocery order. We do not seem to be able to get a delivery slot so I am having to do it this way or go hungry.
Guess what, in the last “ lockdown” we did get a delivery, where did it come from ?Seaton ! And we live near Crewkerne ! Yeovil 9 miles, Seaton 20+.

I wore surgical gloves and a face mask whilst collecting and loading, after unloading at home I throughly gave all boxed and packaged things a wipe over with a disinfectant cloth , threw the gloves in the trash can and hands a good washing.

We have been very carefull and following all the guide lines that to me are VERY EASY TO UNDERSTAND and we have had our first vaccinations.

 

[Pausim]

I think there are many types of Lithium chemistry being used for leisure batteries, too.
Even more if you include integrated BMSs.

As far as I know the only Li chemistry used for motorhome leisure batteries is LiFePO4. Some have cylindrical cells and some prismatic, the BMS arrangements may vary too. Li batteries with magnesium, cobalt, nickel and manganese chemistries are in regular use for other applications.

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[Raul]

I think there are many types of Lithium chemistry being used for leisure batteries, too.
Even more if you include integrated BMSs.

I don’t think so, the voltage is a dead giveaway. If there was different chemistries, it would reflect in the pack voltage. What we see here, is the LiFePo4 all over, which is the closest to lead; hence some say a drop in replacement. No other chemistry is so close to lead. Different construction yes, prismatic and cylindrical cells, different grades and different make bms. Some battery builders make their own bms, some buy ready made and just program the settings.
Pausim beat me to it.

 

[poppycamper]

The lithium (LIFOS, LiFePO4) leisure batteries were both fully charged (100% on the Bluetooth App) but the engine battery was flat

Worse case scenario...
Lithiums should not be kept at 100% soc (better with 80%) and starter battery should not be allowed to go to flat.

 

[two]

Well, I thought I'd seen some other Lithium chemistries but I cannot find them now!
I'm sure I didn't dream it, but maybe it was in power banks or EVs...
I'm sure the early Lithium leisure batteries did not include Phosphate but I was thinking of compositions that had come into use since then and which sounded even more promising.

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[Gromett]

Not wishing to knock Lithium, they still have finite capacity.
If the difference is so noticeable, my guess is that the old battery was due for renewal.
Let's not get carried away with the euphoria
Their value will be discovered in later years.

Not necessarily. Lithium batteries charge much better giving almost all the energy put into them back. Lead acid batteries are a glutton giving only around 80% of the energy back that you put into them.
With a decent solar setup and a B2B a lithium battery is much more practical in that short runs from the B2B couple with even indirect sunlight can put back considerably more energy into an Li battery than a Pb battery.
That's not to mention that with a lead battery you don't want to take it down much below 60% whereas an Li battery is fine with 10%. A 100Ah battery of each flavour will result in almost double the capacity for the Li over Pb.

These 2 factors round trip efficiency and depth of discharge makes them sooo much better than Lead batteries.

 

[Gromett]

If you are trying to harvest solar you waste 5% charging a lead acid battery

Try as much as 20%

 

[Gromett]

Well, I thought I'd seen some other Lithium chemistries but I cannot find them now!
I'm sure I didn't dream it, but maybe it was in power banks or EVs...
I'm sure the early Lithium leisure batteries did not include Phosphate but I was thinking of compositions that had come into use since then and which sounded even more promising.

For portable applications you will generally find the higher energy density chemistries like LiCoO2 These have a very high specific energy meaning you don't need so much weight/size to get the same capacity. Critical for things like phones, laptop and power banks.

For application where portability isn't the issue then safety and price come in and you will generally always find LiFePO4 cells. These also have the advantage of not being very combustible.

I can't imagine any supplier wanting to supply anything other than LiFePO4 cells for motorhome use due to the much higher cost of LiCoO2 and the fire risk associated.

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