Love The Lithium’s (1 Viewer)

[Raul]

I may add to what two was mentioning above.
You can not and should not abuse lithiums. Once abused and they are done, kaput. Unlike lead can take some abuse and recovery, lithium doesn’t. What may look like normal operation on Li, it can be seen as abuse to Lead, but Li can take different parameters to Pb. You have to forget completely the habits of lead to see the true capabilities of Li.

 

[two]

Not wishing to hijack the OP, but it is very much related.
My self build is now ready for putting the batteries in, I reckon about 200 Ah should do, simple question.
Lead acid or Lithium?
and if Lithium, would 100Ah be sufficient?

I would go for Lithium and install a compatible charging infrastructure.
For me, the weight (and space) saving is worth it.
100Ah rated ought to be enough, as would be 120litre water.
More may make life easier, but we used to survive on far less with a bit of management.

Added:
If you can, leave space for a second 100Ah Lithium and fit electronics with that capacity, just in case you find you need it later.
Getting by on less is a matter of discipline - something we all seem to be getting weaker at as time goes by...

 

[Busybees]

Agree.
Batteries can be regarded simply as a "bucket of Amps". Lead buckets are bulkier than Lithium (and 'leak' a bit) but you have to put back whatever is taken out.
I see the primary benefit of Lithium as saving weight, which is more important for some than others.
I believe that you can abuse Lithium, and we still have much to learn in that respect. Experience will tell.
I suggest that owning a Lithium set-up should not encourage folk to start being profligate with their use of electricity. Regard any increase in capacity as an opportunity to become less anxious about running out of it rather than one to use more. Avoid kettles and continue to use it as a precious resource.

Regular low discharge should be discouraged. The BMS should throttle-back consumption towards the bottom end - but I don't think any do. The charger should require a user-request to charge (more slowly) above 80% - but I don't think any do. So I think it's all too easy to shorten the life of Lithium through ignorance. Sure, you can rapid charge Lithium, but I don't think it's good practice to if you can do so more gently. B2B will go 'hell-for-leather' to recharge as fast as it can but can the user dictate a slower rate of charge, knowing that their journey will be two hours or more? We seem to think that up to 90% of capacity is available from Lithium, but I think it should be more like 70% in practice. Just as you could get 90% of the capacity from of Lead, you may not achieve that many times.
I may be wrong. I've been misled by enthusiastic marketing many times before, but still retain a cautious optimism...

You can get B2Bs that have adjustable output, e.g. Kisae Abso DMT 1250, output adjustable from 5A to 50A in 5A steps. It also has built in MPPT solar controller.

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[ChrisL]

Not wishing to hijack the OP, but it is very much related.
My self build is now ready for putting the batteries in, I reckon about 200 Ah should do, simple question.
Lead acid or Lithium?
and if Lithium, would 100Ah be sufficient?

Have you considered lead carbon batteries? I have just fitted one recently, unfortunately obviously I haven't been able to go anywhere to try it out so all I can tell you so far is it holds it's charge well. It seemed to me that it was a good compromise between regular lead acid type batteries and lithium, the main advantages I felt were price, much cheaper then lithium and the ability to be charged at minus zero temperatures also whilst not as quick at recharging as lithium they are still quicker then other lead acid types they can also cope with regular partial state of charge, worth consideration in my humble opinion. The main negative was they are not light, the one I installed was a fair bit heavier then the old lead acid 105 ah battery that it replaced. Below is the one that I fitted, there are also more expensive ones that promise 2000 and 2500 cycles at 50% dod as opposed to 1300 cycles for the one that I bought.

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon Deep Cycle Battery (LDC12-105-G27-DT) (SLCA-12115 DT) - Alpha Batteries

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon deep cycle battery – LDC105-G27-DT What Makes Lead Carbon AGM Superior to other AGMs? Positive […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

 

[two]

You can get B2Bs that have adjustable output, e.g. Kisae Abso DMT 1250, output adjustable from 5A to 50A in 5A steps. It also has built in MPPT solar controller.

Doesn't surprise me, but I expect that's intended for a once-off set-up and impractical for regular adjustment.
"Intelligent" B2B (in my book) should assess the charge required and ask how long to take to recharge in terms of (half) hours on a remote panel.

 

[Raul]

Have you considered lead carbon batteries? I have just fitted one recently, unfortunately obviously I haven't been able to go anywhere to try it out so all I can tell you so far is it holds it's charge well. It seemed to me that it was a good compromise between regular lead acid type batteries and lithium, the main advantages I felt were price, much cheaper then lithium and the ability to be charged at minus zero temperatures also whilst not as quick at recharging as lithium they are still quicker then other lead acid types they can also cope with regular partial state of charge, worth consideration in my humble opinion. The main negative was they are not light, the one I installed was a fair bit heavier then the old lead acid 105 ah battery that it replaced. Below is the one that I fitted, there are also more expensive ones that promise 2000 and 2500 cycles at 50% dod as opposed to 1300 cycles for the one that I bought.

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon Deep Cycle Battery (LDC12-105-G27-DT) (SLCA-12115 DT) - Alpha Batteries

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon deep cycle battery – LDC105-G27-DT What Makes Lead Carbon AGM Superior to other AGMs? Positive […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

According to the data sheet, that battery does nor allow charging sub 0 and discharge up to only -15C deg.

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[ChrisL]

According to the data sheet, that battery does nor allow charging sub 0 and discharge up to only -15C deg.

Your correct, I think I read so much stuff that i must have missed that. The folowing article about lead carbon in general gives an operating temperature from -30 so i think that may be why i thought that they were the same.

Lead Carbon Batteries - The Future Of Lead Acid ?

Lead Carbon technology would seem to offer the holy-grail for traditional lead acid batteries ....

www.solar-wind.co.uk

 

[BuilderBob]

Well now I'm really confused, I'm currently thinking of getting 2 x 100Ah lead acid as weight is not a major issue and the cost saving is considerable,
Can anyone change my mind?
We do a fair bit of wild camping and have 150 watts of solar, fridge is gas.

 

[Pausim]

Your correct, I think I read so much stuff that i must have missed that. The folowing article about lead carbon in general gives an operating temperature from -30 so i think that may be why i thought that they were the same.

Lead Carbon Batteries - The Future Of Lead Acid ?

Lead Carbon technology would seem to offer the holy-grail for traditional lead acid batteries ....

www.solar-wind.co.uk

That article refers to *temperature tolerance” which may be different from charge and discharge temperatures. It could just be the storage temperatures for an inactive battery.

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[Pausim]

Much is said about how freezing temperatures affect Li batteries but freezing temperatures affect lead acid ones too. By -10C the capacity of a 100Ah lead acid battery could be down to only 70Ah and a badly discharged one contains water that can freeze causing real damage. This link gives more information.

Lead acid battery charging in cold weather - Victron Energy

This blog covers lead acid battery charging at low temperatures. A later blog will deal with lithium batteries. Charging lead acid batteries in cold (and indeed hot) weather needs special consideration, primarily due to the fact a higher charge voltage is required at low temperatures and a lower...

www.victronenergy.com

 

[ChrisL]

That article refers to *temperature tolerance” which may be different from charge and discharge temperatures. It could just be the storage temperatures for an inactive battery.

It does indeed, though I think that the terminology used is confusing, a little further down it says.

"Almost all Lead Carbon batteries use very similar charging set points to normal Gel or AGM batteries and are generally a direct, drop-in replacement for normal lead acid batteries.

Outback Pure Lead Carbon set points for a 12V block are 14.1V absorb and 13.5V float, which is well within the programmable range of almost all good solar pv controllers and mains chargers. The manufacturers claim a wide temperature operating range of -30 to +60°C"

This is Outback not Leoch, but I think I must have assumed (perhaps wrongly) that all lead carbon batteries would have similar characteristics. Only time will tell whether they are a good buy or not.

 

[funflair]

Well now I'm really confused, I'm currently thinking of getting 2 x 100Ah lead acid as weight is not a major issue and the cost saving is considerable,
Can anyone change my mind?
We do a fair bit of wild camping and have 150 watts of solar, fridge is gas.

We now couldn't, well actually wouldn't want to be without our Lithium batteries now but that is simply because we have changed the way we use the van because we specced them on a new build, we will use an electric kettle rather than gas, we can use the microwave as much as we want, I don't limit the number of frothy coffees Mrs Funflair can have and how long she dries her hair for, for the summer I will get a portable induction hob to use outside and when it's really hot we will run the air conditioning.

They cost a lot of money so we will be using them, if you are quite happy as you are and saving your pennies is important stick with Lead Acid/Gel, if you have some cash to burn why not blow it on Lithium but then you will possibly use the van differently.

Just for information we have 320ah at the moment and I am going to stick another 160ah on so they won't even break sweat doing what I want them to do.

.

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[Zepp]

We now couldn't, well actually wouldn't want to be without our Lithium batteries now but that is simply because we have changed the way we use the van because we specced them on a new build, we will use an electric kettle rather than gas, we can use the microwave as much as we want, I don't limit the number of frothy coffees Mrs Funflair can have and how long she dries her hair for, for the summer I will get a portable induction hob to use outside and when it's really hot we will run the air conditioning.

They cost a lot of money so we will be using them, if you are quite happy as you are and saving your pennies is important stick with Lead Acid/Gel, if you have some cash to burn why not blow it on Lithium but then you will possibly use the van differently.

Just for information we have 320ah at the moment and I am going to stick another 160ah on so they won't even break sweat doing what I want them to do.

.

Good for you funflair that’s what I like to hear well done . If I was not married to a mean and horrible woman I would of fitted more so I could run my aircon

I’m confused how you can abuse them if you get a quality lithium they have a BMS fitted to protect them

 

[funflair]

Good for you funflair that’s what I like to hear well done . If I was not married to a mean and horrible woman I would of fitted more so I could run my aircon

I’m confused how you can abuse them if you get a quality lithium they have a BMS fitted to protect them

It's a Christmas present to ourselves

Abuse? I don't know BUT.
I wouldn't want to be constantly discharging at maximum amps, we will have 1440 amps continuous discharge capacity so not much chance of that.
I wouldn't want to be regularly taking the capacity down to BMS cut off voltage but we have a "battery guard" that will intervene well before that point.
I wouldn't want to be charging at maximum charge capacity on every recharge, no chance of that.
I wouldn't want to be holding them 100% charged on hook up all winter, ours are isolated and now at 80% and trickle charging the starter via Battery Master.

Some or all of the above could be classed as "abuse" I think but we have Gizmo's fitted to prevent it or as in our previous van with Gels we just had self restraint, ie if the battery is looking low don't use the microwave etc.

I wouldn't buy a van and run it flat out on the weight limit and I wouldn't do that with a battery.
.

 

[Richard J]

This might be of interest...

Warmed-up lithium-based batteries could make electric vehicles cheaper

Lithium batteries that operate at a higher temperature could be cheaper and safer than other batteries for electric cars

www.newscientist.com

Basically as EV batteries, LiFePO batteries could charge in 10 minutes if kept at 60 degrees C, offsetting the reduced capacity, are more efficient at that temperature and don’t need active cooling while being much safer than other types when hot.
Disclaimer; I am not suggesting re-routing the hot air outlet...

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[Tombola]

Well now I'm really confused, I'm currently thinking of getting 2 x 100Ah lead acid as weight is not a major issue and the cost saving is considerable,
Can anyone change my mind?
We do a fair bit of wild camping and have 150 watts of solar, fridge is gas.

I changed form 3x 100 ah lead acid to 1 x 200ah lithium, much better for me, but I dont wild in minus 10s

lithium charges quicker, you get more useable ah, saves space, lasts longer..whats to debate ?

oh yeah cost and temps

if you can get over them its a no brainer

 

[Gents]

Ahh You're talking price. I bought for the benefits I outlined above, knowing those benefits came at a price. Even If they didn't last as long, I would still buy, to get those benefits, weight, rate of charge, depth of discharge.

Agree with you Jim, the one factor that hasn’t been added in, by the let’s wait & see , fraternity, is Time!!!
You can’t put a price on time, because it’s not for Sale!
We none of us know how much or how little is available to each individual.
I have an 07 Transit, & i’ve just spent more on Solar, &Lithium’s than the van is probably worth, At 70, I don’t care, i’m probably on borrowed time anyway, as far as charging around in a camper is concerned. Enjoying the journey of life is far more important than money in the bank. Well that’s my opinion. I look back at all the times i’ve done it whilst my mates have been weighing it up, and very often missed the boat, & I love all the photos, & memories. I met a very old happy Guy, when I was in my 20’s, and his words were.
“He who hesitates has already lost, & rich is he , who is content”, because all the money in the World can’t buy, an hour of time.!!!
Nothing better than being the first in the water.

 

[Zepp]

Quick update
Yesterday the batteries were at 85% at 8am we had heavy cloud cover all day the power we were pulling in from the solar was being used up as fast as it was coming in

7pm the batteries were still at 85%

8am today the batteries were now showing
72%

Decided to go fill up with GPL we did a 10 mile round trip when we got back the batteries were at 85% the battery monitor was showing we were putting in around 80 + amps when we driving

The sun is shining now and I’m positive we will be back to 100% today

It’s ok having all the extra amps

Please remember you have to have a way of putting all the amps back into the batteries I don’t think my solar would of done that today the extra cost of the b2b charger and the heavy cables was well worth the cost

A few more facts we arrived on the aire 7 days ago with full gas tanks

it works out at €56 a week without electricity.

Hookup is €3 a night that’s €21 a week

I’ve used a lot off gas this week due to the cold nights

GPL cost me €12.70 take that of the cost of the hookup price I would of paid

Thats a grand saving €8.30

I should recoup the cost of the batteries within ten years lol

Sorry I know all tech guys know all the above but I did it for all the people like me who are not sure

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[pandas]

AA's are the way to go

 

[Tombola]

Quick update
Yesterday the batteries were at 85% at 8am we had heavy cloud cover all day the power we were pulling in from the solar was being used up as fast as it was coming in

7pm the batteries were still at 85%

8am today the batteries were now showing
72%

Decided to go fill up with GPL we did a 10 mile round trip when we got back the batteries were at 85% the battery monitor was showing we were putting in around 80 + amps when we driving

The sun is shining now and I’m positive we will be back to 100% today

It’s ok having all the extra amps

Please remember you have to have a way of putting all the amps back into the batteries I don’t think my solar would of done that today the extra cost of the b2b charger and the heavy cables was well worth the cost

A few more facts we arrived on the aire 7 days ago with full gas tanks

it works out at €56 a week without electricity.

Hookup is €3 a night that’s €21 a week

I’ve used a lot off gas this week due to the cold nights

GPL cost me €12.70 take that of the cost of the hookup price I would of paid

Thats a grand saving €8.30

I should recoup the cost of the batteries within ten years lol

Sorry I know all tech guys know all the above but I did it for all the people like me who are not sure

cheap diesel heater maybe ?

 

[Wh05apk]

cheap diesel heater maybe ?

How does the heat output compare, as surely diesel is close to double the price of lpg?

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[Tombola]

a couple i follow on youtube worked out about £8.00 per week on diesel while they are full time now in winter over here.
they headed back from spain and was using too much lpg so switched to a cheap deisel heater, plenty of how to videos online.

Amazon product ASIN B07V621RMB

 

[pandas]