Licence and Braking Requirements for a Fifth Wheel

[moandick]

First post on this forum so here goes

I have a Cedar Creek fifth wheeler with a 3500 tow truck.......

If I import it back to the UK I would be interested in the driving licence needed ie would I need an hgv class 1 or whatever they call it now,and how do I cover the braking and parking brake needed for UK trailers.

Ian & Doreen

I have pointed Ian and Doreen to the DVLA Licence requirements in a different thread BUT I know little or nothing about the brake requirements.

Can any 5'er owners help out here?

(Ian's first post was originally on the American Insurance thread.)

 

[Sundowners]

The electric brakes are completely legal on a fifth wheel camper, provided of course that the sensor is fitted to the truck, (or trailer). To comply exactly to the letter of the law, you need a parking brake. These actually seem quite rare, but stt do a back plate conversion kit to fit a cable opperated parking brake.

Nigel

 

[moandick]

In answer to the queries I think you will find that Cedars would not be legal on a normal driving licence in the UK because I believe they are over 7ft 6ins wide (8ft?) and I fear a class 1 licence would be required, however it would only be the width that restricts it and not the weight (odd I know).

I know Lazydays well having been there but they don't seem to know (or care) about UK restrictions on this type of rig (they are a sales operation) but rules are rules and 7' 6" is the max under the Road Traffic Regulations.(for a car licence)

Brakes - Electric brakes are fine as long as the Train weight is not exceded and they are connected to the vehicle braking system (usually via the tow vehicle brake switch)

My unit was purchased in the UK and has a manual handbrake fitted (as much use as the Popes Parts & I never use it) which does comply with the regs.

Insurance - Camptons in the UK are about the best for Insurance as my rig costs £430 a year fully comprehensive for Pick-up and Trailer (they class it as a Motorhome) a survey from Niche Marketing where I bought the unit confirms this.

My wife and I have studied 5'ers for the last ten years but only taken the plunge in 2006, since then and, after experiencing Caravaning, its worth it whatever the cost!

Hope this helps

Come back if you need more.
Regards
Malcolm

 

[IanH]

Dick
The Cedar is 8ft without awnings etc,the GVW is 6291 kg
The Dodge is GVW 5217 kg

I was always under the impression i would need a class 1,although i got no intention of importing it at the moment you never know.

I dont think there is a dealer who cares or know about UK regs,we have used Lazydays and the same salesman for all our purchases.They just seem to have what we wanted each time.

Nice to hear that electric brakes ar legal and i can only imagine what the hand brake would be like,been there with twin wheel conversions on recovery trucks using trailer axles,we used a stick between the seat and brake pedal,the nightmare was MOT time.

Having had an A class,Travel trailer and now a 5th wheel ,this suits us the best and this has got to be the final purchase.Once i find how to reduce photos i will post a few

Ian & Doreen sitting here under the awning and the rain is pouring it down:thumb:

 

[moandick]

Hi Ian

I knew the funsters would come up with the answers to your questions - they are a very knowledgable and helpful set of people - can't understand why they put up with me because I test their knowledge regularly. oh:

As the others have said - you are definitely in the Class 1 HGV area or in modern terms a C+E licence - and it would appear your brakes are legal but you need some form of handbrake - easy-peasy :thumb:

I notice you are sitting in the rain in Cornwall USA - whilst I am sitting in the snow in Cornwall UK - it's a funny old world, ain't it?

Have fun, Ian and keep us in touch with you travels :Cool::Cool:

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[IanH]

Hey Dick

our rain is warm ,we are stll in Florida and we still got 3 weeks.
Not looking forward to going home to snow,but 6 months from home is enough for me on this trip.

 

[Safetyman]

Dick
The Cedar is 8ft without awnings etc,the GVW is 6291 kg
The Dodge is GVW 5217 kg

I was always under the impression i would need a class 1,although i got no intention of importing it at the moment you never know.

I dont think there is a dealer who cares or know about UK regs,we have used Lazydays and the same salesman for all our purchases.They just seem to have what we wanted each time.

Nice to hear that electric brakes ar legal and i can only imagine what the hand brake would be like,been there with twin wheel conversions on recovery trucks using trailer axles,we used a stick between the seat and brake pedal,the nightmare was MOT time.

Having had an A class,Travel trailer and now a 5th wheel ,this suits us the best and this has got to be the final purchase.Once i find how to reduce photos i will post a few

Ian & Doreen sitting here under the awning and the rain is pouring it down:thumb:

Hi Ian & Doreen
Further to Mo and Dicks mail your train weight is around 5 tons and although an ordinary car licence entitles you to 7.5 tons gross, its still the 8 foot restriction that buggers it up, if it was me I'd stay where you are and put up with the warm rain!
Malc

 

[IanH]

Hi Malc
i have a C1E licence and drive trucks when im'e back in the UK ,its the code 107 that limits trailers to 750kg that put the spanner in the works .

I only wish i could afford to stay here but like most others i got to come back home to earn a few pounds to do it all again next winter
Ian

 

[algill]

5th wheel parking brake

Trying to check out what we need to do to put a parking brake on our fiver.

Sundowner - who are stt please?

 

[moandick]

The STT Group

The STT Group - UK suppliers of American 5th Wheels and Trailers.

Click <Here> for their web site.

Speak to Mark Wingate.

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[derek h]

Re the 7ft 6in issue
I've not idea how to bring this thread over onto this one. I'm willing to bet someone can. Meanwhile look on
"American Rv " forum (immediately above this forum )
Click
"Width may no longer be an issue any more" thread.

Discuss:thumb:

Your thoughts, as always welcome

 

[kayzee bounder]

Hope this helps.

First post on this forum so here goes

I have a Cedar Creek fifth wheeler with a 3500 tow truck.......

If I import it back to the UK I would be interested in the driving licence needed ie would I need an hgv class 1 or whatever they call it now,and how do I cover the braking and parking brake needed for UK trailers.

Ian & Doreen

I have pointed Ian and Doreen to the DVLA Licence requirements in a different thread BUT I know little or nothing about the brake requirements.

Can any 5'er owners help out here?

(Ian's first post was originally on the American Insurance thread.)

Hello, hope this might prove useful, i have a K-Z montego Bay 36' 5th wheeler that i tow with a dodge Ram 3500 "Dooley", total weight combined is about 6 tons which is under the 7.5 ton limit for standard licence holders who took their tests before 1999 (i think). Any trailer over 750kgs in the U.K must have braking, mine has the electric system which takes a few minutes to get used to but is fine. A trailer here doesn't undergo an M.O.T. unless it is operated under LGV or PCV rules (commercial use) and many people confuse articulated vehicles with Goods or passenger carrying vehicles when it comes to licence's. If your vehicle is private, not not used for hire & reward, not a fare paying passenger vehicle and is under 7.5 tons gross weight with the trailer exceeding 750 kgs but having a fully operating braking system then you can driver it on a standard licence, it does help if you were formally a lorry driver though to get used to the bendy bit :thumb:

 

[TJ-RV]

Here's a link to that discussion.

 

[MammaLL]

length???

I posted a query in another thread but this is very interesting, particularly the draft increase in width. I was told on another forum that there was a limit in maximum length of a fifth wheel to 7 metres? I am guessing this isnt the case seeing as kayzee has a 37' rig?

And does anyone have problems with sites accepting such a big trailer in the uk?

Thanks

 

[Tony Hunt]

Hello, hope this might prove useful, i have a K-Z montego Bay 36' 5th wheeler that i tow with a dodge Ram 3500 "Dooley", total weight combined is about 6 tons which is under the 7.5 ton limit for standard licence holders who took their tests before 1999 (i think). Any trailer over 750kgs in the U.K must have braking, mine has the electric system which takes a few minutes to get used to but is fine. A trailer here doesn't undergo an M.O.T. unless it is operated under LGV or PCV rules (commercial use) and many people confuse articulated vehicles with Goods or passenger carrying vehicles when it comes to licence's. If your vehicle is private, not not used for hire & reward, not a fare paying passenger vehicle and is under 7.5 tons gross weight with the trailer exceeding 750 kgs but having a fully operating braking system then you can driver it on a standard licence, it does help if you were formally a lorry driver though to get used to the bendy bit :thumb:

You dont mention in the above post the maximum width allowed to drive on a car licence, yours is clearly over 7ft 6". People importing RVs have to keep under 101 inches ( I think) but can drive them on a pre 1997 car licence if they are under 7.5 tonnes so why has a fifth wheeler got to be under 7ft 6"? 101" is 8ft 5"

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[kayzee bounder]

width.

Interesting point you've made there Tony and i don't know the answer, i know there were some restrictions placed on R.V's and R.T's regarding width but that seemed more to do with importing than road law. I was under the impression that those restrictions had been dropped but i say that without any form of official reference to quote....time for a bit of research it seem's

 

[IanRS]

Hi Malc
i have a C1E licence and drive trucks when im'e back in the UK ,its the code 107 that limits trailers to 750kg that put the spanner in the works .

I only wish i could afford to stay here but like most others i got to come back home to earn a few pounds to do it all again next winter
Ian

Hi Ian Ive been reading this thread as a guest with great interest (prompting me to register on this site) and the laws in this country are to say the least difficult to understand but I'm confused by your comment about "code 107 limiting you to 750kg" according to the booklet that came back with my licence code 107 states "not more than 8250kg" I passed my test back in 1963 and my HGV1 in 1979 which is before the change in 1997 limiting towing trailers over 750kg. Hope you dont think I'm trying to be a smart newby just confused by your comments.

Regards another Ian

 

[pappajohn]

Hi Ian Ive been reading this thread as a guest with great interest (prompting me to register on this site) and the laws in this country are to say the least difficult to understand but I'm confused by your comment about "code 107 limiting you to 750kg" according to the booklet that came back with my licence code 107 states "not more than 8250kg" I passed my test back in 1963 and my HGV1 in 1979 which is before the change in 1997 limiting towing trailers over 750kg. Hope you dont think I'm trying to be a smart newby just confused by your comments.

Regards another Ian

hi Ian,

firstly...welcome to the FUN !

i think what ian is getting at is if he drives an RV or a truck at 7.5 tonnes he can only drag a trailer weighing 750kg making a total train of 8250kg....the limit of a C1E licence.
i think if he drove a 6 tonne RV he could drag a 2225kg trailer, again making a train of 8250kg

could be wrong on the last bit though oh:as i could be wrong saying a post '97 pass driver cant tow ANY trailer until an extra trailer test has been passed. then i beleive the max train is 12000kg

cheers

john.

 

[IanRS]

hi Ian,

firstly...welcome to the FUN !

i think what ian is getting at is if he drives an RV or a truck at 7.5 tonnes he can only drag a trailer weighing 750kg making a total train of 8250kg....the limit of a C1E licence.
i think if he drove a 6 tonne RV he could drag a 2225kg trailer, again making a train of 8250kg

could be wrong on the last bit though oh:as i could be wrong saying a post '97 pass driver cant tow ANY trailer until an extra trailer test has been passed. then i beleive the max train is 12000kg

cheers

john.

Hi John thanks for the welcome I find these forums good to exchange info and indeed learn from other peoples experiences, from Jan 1st 1997 anyone passing their test in a car was limited to towing a trailer up to 750kg this could catch out people who tow horse/pony trailers, I know my daughter in law would need to pass another test to tow my trailer.

Regards Ian

 

[robrobc]

Hi All I thought I would just chuck in my opinions, and some facts.

I too was getting very confused with regard to what can and cannot be legally towed on a standrad driving licence, and also what the Ministry considered to be MAM (Maximum Allowable Mass). So I wrote to them, and guess what I got a response by email. So I quote

Dear Mr C?????
The maximum weight of a vehicle is the maximum weight of the Unit when it is fully loaded, and this includes fuel, passengers, allowable load etc etc. The maximum weight of this Unit, or Units must not exceed the MAM allowable for the individual licence holder.

So does that mean that the MAM is the GCWR for the Unit or Units, if it does then this is going to be quite different to the curb weight or dry weight, something that I think may have been used by some 5'ers.

Hmmmmm Food for thought.

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[TJ-RV]

So does that mean that the MAM is the GCWR for the Unit or Units

No....

MAM = GVWR
Train weight = GCWR

 

[olley]

hi another spanner according to construct and use reg's if the trailer imposes a load of more than 1000kg or 10% of it weight on to the towing vehicle, then it is classed as a semi-trailer, and the whole unit is classed as an articulated vehicle.

All articulated vehicles are subject to Plating and Testing.

Their's a long post on the ARVE site about this, the poster had several emails with the DVLA and came to the conclusion that the only answer was to get his vehicle plated.

Olley

 

[robrobc]

No....

MAM = GVWR
Train weight = GCWR

Hmmmmm If you re-read my earlier quotation, which was mailed to me by the Ministry and I quote

"Dear Mr C?????
The maximum weight of a vehicle is the maximum weight of the Unit when it is fully loaded, and this includes fuel, passengers, allowable load etc etc. The maximum weight of this Unit, or Units must not exceed the MAM allowable for the individual licence holder."

I would understand that as

The maximum weight of a Unit is the GVWR, that is the maximum weight of the Unit including all passengers and loads, so in the example of a fifth wheel then the Maximum Authorised Mass will be the combination of the GVWR's of the Trailer and the Pick Up. (this is also known as the GCWR or Train weight) This will be either 18,000lbs (8250Kgs) or 26,400 Lbs (12,000Kgs) dependent on the date when the licence was issued.

I was trying to purvey the sense of opacity we are all up against when trying to get definitive statements from our civil servants, and I haven't even raised the subject of the Const. and Use Regs.

 

[dazzer]

hi another spanner according to construct and use reg's if the trailer imposes a load of more than 1000kg or 10% of it weight on to the towing vehicle, then it is classed as a semi-trailer, and the whole unit is classed as an articulated vehicle.

All articulated vehicles are subject to Plating and Testing.

Their's a long post on the ARVE site about this, the poster had several emails with the DVLA and came to the conclusion that the only answer was to get his vehicle plated.

Olley

I thought plating only related to COMMERCIAL vehicles?? Unless you are using the 5er to make money its not a commercial is it??

 

[TJ-RV]

Hmmmmm If you re-read my earlier quotation...

Sorry mate, I was merely responding to your question. Can't help with the civil non-servants; It seems that little has changed since we lived in the UK 30 years ago.

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[robrobc]

Sorry mate, I was merely responding to your question. Can't help with the civil non-servants; It seems that little has changed since we lived in the UK 30 years ago.

Tom, no worries mate, I was just trying to illuminate how ludicrous the situation is over here,oh:
I believe that if anything it has got worse as no-one seems prepared to commit to a definitive statement on anything these days. Life would be so simple if someone just said, "if you are that age and have so and so you can do this.......never mind about individual weights it is the total weight that matters"......but no.........as usual we have a hybrid European solution as we do for so many things. Curb weight , dry weight, GVW, Train Weight, GVWR, MAM, ....and so forth.........I mean how many b****y weights are there. oh:

Sorry for the rant but I am a believer in the K.I.S.S. principle.

Rob

 

[robrobc]

hi another spanner according to construct and use reg's if the trailer imposes a load of more than 1000kg or 10% of it weight on to the towing vehicle, then it is classed as a semi-trailer, and the whole unit is classed as an articulated vehicle.

All articulated vehicles are subject to Plating and Testing.

Their's a long post on the ARVE site about this, the poster had several emails with the DVLA and came to the conclusion that the only answer was to get his vehicle plated.

Olley

Olley, when you quote load do you mean downward load at the Kingpin?,

if so, that is 2200Lbs of weight, that would be one mutha of a fifth wheel

 

[TJ-RV]

Sorry for the rant but I am a believer in the K.I.S.S. principle.

Rob,

No need for apology, and I didn't take it as a rant. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably be ranting a lot more. Back in the 60's (that would be the 1960's for the young 'uns around here), whenever we ran into bureaucracy, we'd joke that "it's like dealing with the gas board".

OTOH having spent the last 30 or so years on this side of the pond, a chunk of it dealing with US government requirements, I can say it's not a lot different over here.

BTW, being from west of the Severn, I don't normally use the term 'mate' in my replies (I believe this was a first), preferring to use 'boyo'. That usually gets a "oh, you must be Welsh" response

 

[olley]

Olley, when you quote load do you mean downward load at the Kingpin?,

if so, that is 2200Lbs of weight, that would be one mutha of a fifth wheel

Hi rob no idea about 5th wheel weights, but don't some of the bigger ones weigh around 5ton's? If so it seems likely they would impose around a ton or so onto the fifth wheel plate? Otherwise why would you need a dually ram pickup to tow them with.

As for not needing plating because it's private, no idea, this poster had several emails with the DVLA and they took advice from Marsham (Construct & Use people) who said the above, and also said that all artic's must be plated.

Olley

 

[IanRS]

Hi rob no idea about 5th wheel weights, but don't some of the bigger ones weigh around 5ton's? If so it seems likely they would impose around a ton or so onto the fifth wheel plate? Otherwise why would you need a dually ram pickup to tow them with.

As for not needing plating because it's private, no idea, this poster had several emails with the DVLA and they took advice from Marsham (Construct & Use people) who said the above, and also said that all artic's must be plated.

Olley

Hi All just to throw another spanner in the works, last year I contacted DVLA and VOSA by telephone about plating a 3500 yank truck, answer was sorry sir but you cannot plate an import, as this was over the phone I have no proof to back up this statement but it just gets more frustrating trying to deal with the powers that be. Has anyone else tried to plate an import?

Regards Ian

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