I don’t normally complain about the Caravan Club but …….

[daventess]

It was then banned as Carcinogenic until further research carried out showed it be carcinogenic to the same level as eating bacon.

Have the CAMC considered treating the lawn with bacon?

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

It's only carcinogenic when frequently used in commercial quantities, eg sprayed from a tractor.

IE, I would not want to be a contractor spraying this stuff and being exposed on a regular basis. Perfectly happy to use it in the garden for spot treatment on a weekly basis

I provided H&S advice to our local council Grounds Maintenance Service, prior to 2020, so have some knowledge of pesticide application and requirements. Glyphosate in high concentrations and prolonged exposures may be carcinogenic. There is a difference between the exposure to the person decanting, diluting, mixing then applying the pesticide (weed killer), and any person or animal being exposed once it has been applied (and subsequently dried). The people preparing and applying were required to wear full PPE of impervious boots, coveralls, gloves and face protection. They were not allowed to spray above waist height, nor in windy conditions. All this was covered in mandatory certified training.

Irrespective of what product is being used there are some fundamental questions that need to be asked about communication with people on the site.

Recommendations was that notices should be displayed to inform public what was being used and ant precautions, like keeping pets off until it was dry.

i think that is the give away. If the person Is covered to that extent, someone must have assessed a significant risk. Forget the CAMC and try the HSE. Was there any warning signage posted where said person was working?

See my first comment regarding the exposure scenarios.

 

[L' Hobo]

i think that is the give away. If the person Is covered to that extent, someone must have assessed a significant risk. Forget the CAMC and try the HSE. Was there any warning signage posted where said person was working?

Unless thing have changed, you would be lucky to get a HSE representative, when I was a H&S rep for the TGWU, there was only about a dozen covering ALL of the UK!

 

[Antl]

It still wouldn’t be a defence if the MSDS mentions any danger to animals though as they are accepted on sites.
The PPE as described indicates that there are risks from the product. PPE is the last resort for any risk reduction program and therefore indicates that there will be a dispersion or evaporation time statement for persons and animals to be excluded from if not protected by the PPE.

Sadly there is a lack of understanding of hazards, risks and control measures. A culture has developed where PPE is used irrespective of the risks, the use of PPE does not necessarily mean that a risk exists.

 

[GJH]

Dogs have a habit of eating grass.
Seems to me to be a stupid thing to do

Unlikely to eat enough from a mown pitch should the owner fail to control the dog from doing so.

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[maison]

But does it taste like bacon

Like everything else it probably tastes like chicken!

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

Sadly there is a lack of understanding of hazards, risks and control measures. A culture has developed where PPE is used irrespective of the risks, the use of PPE does not necessarily mean that a risk exists.

True but I can’t see the CAMC paying for and providing it unless they need it. Without knowing what was being used I would take the view that the PPE indicates that it wouldn’t be good to get close enough to ask.

 

[pelican]

Have the CAMC considered treating the lawn with bacon?

Not until they have finished covering it with Hardcore.

 

[lorger]

Sadly there is a lack of understanding of hazards, risks and control measures. A culture has developed where PPE is used irrespective of the risks, the use of PPE does not necessarily mean that a risk exists.

Spent 30 years working at a large chemical company, PPE was always the last resort as before considering PPE we would try to eliminate the hazard. Obviously this can’t always be done but once we were happy we’d got as far as we could we would then look at the PPE required. The danger with PPE is you give it to some people and they then assume they are safe, always try and eliminate the hazard first. In the site situation they should’ve had signs up a few days in advance and possibly sprayed at night when foot fall is less, if done at 8pm or later it would seriously reduce the risk.

 

[Antl]

Lorger, I have seen so many problems caused by inappropriate use of PPE, or as you say an assumption PPE is going to protect them. The crux of the issue is undertaking a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and then proper control measures. Sadly, too many people don’t understand this!

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[Antl]

I use this regularly. It recommends, gloves and respirator, and to keep pets away until dry. I wouldn't be using it anywhere near campers or their dogs. The warden must have been a simpleton, or was directed by one.

Absolutely, the CAMC have a statutory duty to provide its employees with “information, instruction, training and supervision”, I see some gaps in this instance. As I said previously, I have made a complaint to the CAMC and there was a fundamental lack of understanding of their legal obligations.

 

[Oldmanwood]

It might be effective against plants, but it is also harmful to insects.
Some may say 'good', or, 'so what' - to which I would say 'think it through.......'

I can recommend the writings of Dave Goulson on the subject.

 

[lorger]

Lorger, I have seen so many problems caused by inappropriate use of PPE, or as you say an assumption PPE is going to protect them. The crux of the issue is undertaking a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and then proper control measures. Sadly, too many people don’t understand this!

You’d be shocked at some of the things I’ve seen people either doing or going to do, when I was the shift manager part of my role was permit to work issuer. The things people asked to do because they were wearing PPE shocked and amazed me, we had a really good safety record but still had the odd incident no matter what you did, thankfully only had one incident of note on my watch and that’s because they didn’t follow the permit.

 

[Nanniemate]

You’d be shocked at some of the things I’ve seen people either doing or going to do, when I was the shift manager part of my role was permit to work issuer. The things people asked to do because they were wearing PPE shocked and amazed me, we had a really good safety record but still had the odd incident no matter what you did, thankfully only had one incident of note on my watch and that’s because they didn’t follow the permit.

You cannot legislate against stupid

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Because Jim provides his marshals with nice Funster Hi-Vis PPE, I know I'm safe from you lot squishing me.

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[BikerGraham]

Everything seems to kill fish! I have a koi pond. Roundup, wet and forget, bug killers, anti-fungus treatment all carry dire warnings about the dangers they pose to aquatic life.

Yep even milk.

I once read a safety data sheet by a company for ………
Water!!!!!!!

It even had the phrase

In case of spillage, wash away with copious amounts of …….

Yep you guessed it

Water !!!!!

This is not a joke. It was real

People need to understand what risk actually is and that safety data sheets are produced for industrial / workplace use.

But at the end of the day, if unsure then ask the question as Janine is quite rightly doing. People shouldn’t worry unnecessarily

 

[BikerGraham]

There was a programme on Radio 4 this morning about a research chemist in Germany, that said, innocent people in the 1940's were brushing their teeth with Radioactive toothpaste and had brilliant white teeth, it was thought to be harmless.

The next episode is same time next week!

The fake snow used for the film White Christmas was asbestos based

 

[BikerGraham]

Unless thing have changed, you would be lucky to get a HSE representative, when I was a H&S rep for the TGWU, there was only about a dozen covering ALL of the UK!

There are hundreds of HSE inspectors. I know of dozens just for COMAH which is a specialist division. General inspectors number much more for each area of the country.

It’s a massive quango

 

[BikerGraham]

You’d be shocked at some of the things I’ve seen people either doing or going to do, when I was the shift manager part of my role was permit to work issuer. The things people asked to do because they were wearing PPE shocked and amazed me, we had a really good safety record but still had the odd incident no matter what you did, thankfully only had one incident of note on my watch and that’s because they didn’t follow the permit.

Nothing shocks me nowadays after some of the things I e seen over the decades. Like yourself most probably

 

[L' Hobo]

There are hundreds of HSE inspectors. I know of dozens just for COMAH which is a specialist division. General inspectors number much more for each area of the country.

It’s a massive quango

Then things have changed since the 1980's.

I thought that I read somewhere that Government funding for the HSE had dropped year on year under the Tories up until 2023 when the last report of finance was issued?

All I remember is, while attending a serious fatal accident involving a number of people, despite requested from senior Union staff, it was 2days before senior HSE ACCIDENT inspectors arrived on the scene!

We were told the delay was because they were involved elsewhere and knew we would cope and follow procedure.

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[Nanniemate]

Then things have changed since the 1980's.

I thought that I read somewhere that Government funding for the HSE had dropped year on year under the Tories up until 2023 when the last report of finance was issued?

All I remember is, while attending a serious fatal accident involving a number of people, despite requested from senior Union staff, it was 2days before senior HSE ACCIDENT inspectors arrived on the scene!

We were told the delay was because they were involved elsewhere and knew we would cope and follow procedure.

OM 2009/02 - HSE's role in the investigation of work-related road accidents and advice on responding to enquiries on managing work-related road safety

Explains HSE's role in the investigation of work-related road accidents and gives advice on responding to enquiries on managing work-related road safety

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Risk Assessment is a much misused tool. I remember looking at one for a bridge repair, which correctly identified the risk of drowning, particularly if there was heavy rain (this was early March), and the probability as high. No effective controls were proposed, but Managers were not happy when I said, lpostpone the job until better weather”. The retort was the bridge had to be repaired, as it was the diversion route when the main road was due to be closed for a week due to an annual street fair. My counter to this was cancel or relocate the market, or work out a better way to protect the people working under the bridge to effectively prop it up. They managed to come up with a suitable solution.
A CoSHH assessment for a routinely used product had a control measure of wearing gloves whilst using it. The product was a proprietary hand cleaner

 

[B+W vanman]

Nothing shocks me nowadays after some of the things I e seen over the decades. Like yourself most probably

Bit rude!
I look ok actually, if a bit weathered….

 

[BikerGraham]

Bit rude!
I look ok actually, if a bit weathered….

Rude in what way ?

He was saying some thing he had seen would shock others. I was agreeing

 

[BikerGraham]

Then things have changed since the 1980's.

I thought that I read somewhere that Government funding for the HSE had dropped year on year under the Tories up until 2023 when the last report of finance was issued?

All I remember is, while attending a serious fatal accident involving a number of people, despite requested from senior Union staff, it was 2days before senior HSE ACCIDENT inspectors arrived on the scene!

We were told the delay was because they were involved elsewhere and knew we would cope and follow procedure.

Don’t know about he 80’s so much with the HSE. I’m too young

Whilst funding from central government may be getting cut. Much of their running costs are paid by industry via Fee For Intervention (FFI) for general HSE which is about £140 per hour. COMAH inspectors have always charged industry for their time at over £155 per hour. So they are mostly self funding. They bring in just under what they cost. Regularly. Almost as if it’s a ploy so they can still say that government pay their costs.

I was head hunted into a company about 12 years ago to sort things out. Their HSE bill for the year was around £100k. They did have issues. Which I sorted and their HSE bill dropped to around £20k, which for an Upper Tier COMAH site is about the minimum they could expect.

I was at a seminar about 15 years ago where there was an HSE inspector present and gave a talk. As with many they were complaining about cuts to funding and their reduced numbers in their particular area. A delegate from Hull asked cut to what, given that he only had 13 staff for emergency planning. The HSE said, well we are down now to only 5000 ….. yes five thousand there was combination of laughter with some and others where just incredulous.

As with many in their areas they always moan about cuts without any understanding of the real world and what industry has to work with.

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[L' Hobo]

Don’t know about he 80’s so much with the HSE. I’m too young

Whilst funding from central government may be getting cut. Much of their running costs are paid by industry via Fee For Intervention (FFI) for general HSE which is about £140 per hour. COMAH inspectors have always charged industry for their time at over £155 per hour. So they are mostly self funding. They bring in just under what they cost. Regularly. Almost as if it’s a ploy so they can still say that government pay their costs.

I was head hunted into a company about 12 years ago to sort things out. Their HSE bill for the year was around £100k. They did have issues. Which I sorted and their HSE bill dropped to around £20k, which for an Upper Tier COMAH site is about the minimum they could expect.

I was at a seminar about 15 years ago where there was an HSE inspector present and gave a talk. As with many they were complaining about cuts to funding and their reduced numbers in their particular area. A delegate from Hull asked cut to what, given that he only had 13 staff for emergency planning. The HSE said, well we are down now to only 5000 ….. yes five thousand there was combination of laughter with some and others where just incredulous.

As with many in their areas they always moan about cuts without any understanding of the real world and what industry has to work with.

5000 you say?

That's interesting because I have just asked my computer ' How many HSE inspectors in the UK' and one of the entries was a report posted by Alison Fava from shponline (no I have never heard of them before) who said that, following a FOI request by the union UNITE, in 2010 (15yrs ago, approx the same time as your seminar) there was 1131 Frontline Inspectors and by 31 Dec 2016, that number had been reduced to 980.

Another FOI request revealed that, 'An average investigation takes 3yrs 4months from Fatal Accident occurring until conviction.

While I have no axe to grind and do not want to get involved in an argument because my days of H&S are long behind me, it does beg the question, who's to be believed, your guy at the seminar or the FOI report?

 

[philann]

Yep even milk.

I once read a safety data sheet by a company for ………
Water!!!!!!!

It even had the phrase

In case of spillage, wash away with copious amounts of …….

Yep you guessed it

Water !!!!!

This is not a joke. It was real

People need to understand what risk actually is and that safety data sheets are produced for industrial / workplace use.

But at the end of the day, if unsure then ask the question as Janine is quite rightly doing. People shouldn’t worry unnecessarily

I have seen this before and the initial response is amusement, but water can be very dangerous especially when it is at high temperature when boiling or in its gaseous state e.g. steam. A high proportion of accidents in the home are due to hot water, which is why we have short leads on kettles to stop children pulling on them, and temperature restricted taps to reduce the risk of scolding in baths and sinks. The first aid recommendation to alleviate skin damage from hot water burns is to put the damaged area under running cold water!

 

[BikerGraham]

5000 you say?

That's interesting because I have just asked my computer ' How many HSE inspectors in the UK' and one of the entries was a report posted by Alison Fava from shponline (no I have never heard of them before) who said that, following a FOI request by the union UNITE, in 2010 (15yrs ago, approx the same time as your seminar) there was 1131 Frontline Inspectors and by 31 Dec 2016, that number had been reduced to 980.

Another FOI request revealed that, 'An average investigation takes 3yrs 4months from Fatal Accident occurring until conviction.

While I have no axe to grind and do not want to get involved in an argument because my days of H&S are long behind me, it does beg the question, who's to be believed, your guy at the seminar or the FOI report?

agree no arguments

it did surprise everyone in the seminar at the time. Although they weren't front line inspectors but employees of the HSE. But yes that is what was said.

As said this was around 15 years ago. It was a few years following the Buncefield fuel storage depot fire, which was December 2005, so maybe more like 20 hears ago. There was a great deal of discussion afterwards.

However, either way, your figures or what we were told demonstrates two things. There are a great deal more than 12 for the whole country and they are always complaining about how few of them there are. Its also perception....

unlike most of industry or union reps. who come across the HSE on occasion. Upper Tier COMAH sites deal with the regulators, all the time. We have a minimum of 4 major inspections every year. So we know just in this one division there are a considerable number of inspectors and specialists.

 

[SpeedyDux]

A nurse once warned me that eating smoked fish, Mackerel in this case was carcinogenic, then recently we were told on the BBC News that we should reduce the risk of cancer by "not over grilling" toast, it should apparently not be dark brown but pale in colour to reduce the risk, even using white bread is a no no.
On the farming front, if weeds are allowed to grow and shed seed they will outgrow any crop that is planted afterwards effectively suffocating the crop, yields drop, prices go up.
Adverse weather is also blamed for bad harvests arround the world, like coffee & Chocolate, and recently olive harvests from Greece and Spain etc, but is it only me that notices that the prices never seem to return to their average price when the weather has normalised.
LES

I've eaten loads of burnt toast! Still alive, fingers crossed. Also quite a lot of bacon.

And I spray weeds with Glyphosate (cheapest weedkiller is from Poundland) only on windless days though I do wear gloves and a mask.

I worry more about slug pellets and rat poison that some neighbours might be using and its impact on the local wildlife especially hedgehogs.

 

[Janine]

Well, I have had a reply from the Caravan Club - they are referring my complaint to the Member Relations team. I should get a response within 4 weeks.

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