Fitting Solar Panels to Dethleffs Globetrotter XLi with EBL 101 (1 Viewer)

[JohnZeus]

Hi all, I've read quite a few threads / stuff here on this topic but nothing I have read answers all my questions. So with the horror of asking people to re-educate me with something that probably is already posted I'll get to the point.

I have a 2011 Dethleffs Globetrotter Xli with an Electroblock EBL 101 and a Schaudt MP 20-T control panel (I haven't got an English manual for this).
I would like to know if the Schaudt LRM 1218 or the Votronic MPPT 250 or the Votronic MPPT 350 are the solar controllers to go for given the following considerations, and here I would like you to correct me if I'm wrong as well.
I would like to fit 350W of solar panels, maybe this is too much but I figure I'd need latency due to loss in efficiency, shade etc.
I don't believe the EBL 101 can take more than 15A of current, do all three controllers comply or am I mixing problems through lack of understanding.
I want the system to charge both leisure batteries and the starter battery, although the votronic items seem to only have 2 leads into the EBL, can this be maneuvered around by some other method?
I understand I will not be able to see on the control panel any information about the Solar Panels, but could fit a monitor to view info, is there one that takes info from the EBL unit or would it come from the solar controller as just information.
My Fridge is a Dometic Auto unit that seems to have the ability to use solar power, does it get it from the EBL 101 automatically or do I have to do something else?
If you think I've missed something I'm more than happy to bow to superior knowledge as I've never fitted solar panels before.
Finally on another note but connected
If anyone knows how to take my driver seat off so I can get at the Leisure batteries I'd sure be grateful, or if there as another way to get then out then please tell me.
Many thanks to all in advance
John

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Hello and welcome aboard. The seats lift off by undoing the 6 x allen headed bolts in the seat base. there are 2 each side to the rear, and 1 each side to the front. The frame sits just above the plastic protective plate over the battery's. You also need to open the yellow occupancy joiner clip, normally zip tied to the side of the seat. Lifting of the seat is best done on level ground. Have some cushioning handy on the vinyl floor, or it WILL dig into it.
It''s a weighty item so hernia or bad back sufferers will need some help. Also when putting it back, another pair of hands to hold the plastic separator in place is a god send. It's a good idea to photograph it before you start, in case you have problems reassembling everything.
Regards.
Mike

 

[Brendan]

Hello and welcome aboard. The seats lift off by undoing the 6 x allen headed bolts in the seat base. there are 2 each side to the rear, and 1 each side to the front. The frame sits just above the plastic protective plate over the battery's. You also need to open the yellow occupancy joiner clip, normally zip tied to the side of the seat. Lifting of the seat is best done on level ground. Have some cushioning handy on the vinyl floor, or it WILL dig into it.
It''s a weighty item so hernia or bad back sufferers will need some help. Also when putting it back, another pair of hands to hold the plastic separator in place is a god send. It's a good idea to photograph it before you start, in case you have problems reassembling everything.
Regards.
Mike

There is also a bolt at the centre of the rear cross bar of the seat at the top of the hydraulic ram for seat height adjustment which needs to be removed.
Like other bits of the reassembly this can be a challenge.
As has already been said, the whole assembly is very heavy, not really a job for one, and the space available is difficult for any more than one.

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[paddymcc]

You are right that the EBL max is 15-20 A . Udo Lang at Schaudt suggests that if you want to have more current from the controller ( max 30A) you can run 15A through the solar input and 15A through the auxillary charger input. However I know that Lenny HB has connected his Votronic 350 just to the solar and put a 30 A fuse on it and it has been fine. If you search for a thread by OldAgeTravellers and solar I think that there is more info there.
The fridge to run on solar will need a 2mm cable from the Votronic AES connector to the S+ terminal on the fridge. On mine it is on top...
Hope that helps
Paddy

 

[paddymcc]

The Votronic has another connector next to the AES one to supply a trickle charge to the starter battery. A cable from that can go into the starter battery junction on the back of th EBL or to block 2 (?) on the front that supplies the fridge on 12 v

 

[Lenny HB]

Any of those solar regulators will be I OK I prefer the Votronic, I us a Votronic MPP 350. If using the Votronic to connect to the front of the EBL you need to add a 3rd cable to connect to the starter battery.

The 15 amp fuse on the EBL can be increased to 20 amp but if fitting 350 watts of solar I would connect straight to the batteries, to do this you can connect via the rear terminals on the EBL.

Votronic do have a remote display that gives the solar info but you would be better fitting a Victron BMV712 of a Victron Smart Shunt that will give you full info on your batteries.

The AES output on the Votronic works well it does cycles of 30 min so as not to flattered the batteries. One problem you do get the Dometic firmware is naff and has solar as the primary power source even when on EHU, when on EHU and the batteries are charged the regulator outputs a signal and the fridge often switches to 12v when on EHU. I fitted a relay to disconnect the AES feed when on EHU.
Your fridge does need to be able to run off the hab batteries for it to work, on my Hymer if I select 12v manually it runs of the hab batteries if yours does this it will work on AES with the output from the regulator.

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[Lenny HB]

However I know that @Lenny HB has connected his Votronic 350 just to the solar and put a 30 A fuse on it and it has been fine.

I changed the fuse in the EBL to 20 amp and I have 300 Watts of solar that is the absolute most I would feed through the EBL. I am thinking of rewiring direct to the batteries to see if improves performance.

 

[autorouter]

The Votronic has another connector next to the AES one to supply a trickle charge to the starter battery. A cable from that can go into the starter battery junction on the back of th EBL or to block 2 (?) on the front that supplies the fridge on 12 v

The EBL101 is one of the EBL models that has a starter battery connection on pin 2 of the 3-way solar connection. Pin 1 can be used as the common negative connection.

You are right that the EBL max is 15-20 A . Udo Lang at Schaudt suggests that if you want to have more current from the controller ( max 30A) you can run 15A through the solar input and 15A through the auxillary charger input.

Doubling up these connections to pass more power is common practice. For example, on the EBL101, the 'Spare 3' circuit can be fused at 25A. Its positive is pins 2 & 3 of the 12-way (Block 5), and the negative is Pins 7 & 8. Sargent distribution boxes have the battery and fridge connections as doubled-up spade connectors.

As Udo Lang says, Pin 3 of the 3-way (Solar) connector and Pin 2 of the 2-way Auxiliary charger connector (labelled Zusatz Ladegerat) can be both used together as the positive feed to the leisure battery. Pin 1 of both connectors should be used as the negative feed. With 350W of panel flat on the roof, you'll be lucky to get much more than 25A anyway.

Wired in this way, the solar amps will be accounted for by the EBL/Control Panel, but will only show only as the total amps flowing into or out of the battery, not as a separate solar contribution.

 

[paddymcc]

The EBL101 is one of the EBL models that has a starter battery connection on pin 2 of the 3-way solar connection. Pin 1 can be used as the common negative connection.

Thanks autorouter, I mis remembered which block it was on the EBL. After I posted that about the fridge connector I had second thoughts so was going to look it up on the EBL wiring diagram. Thanks for correcting that.

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[JohnZeus]

Wow, great response from everyone which I really appreciate. I'll have to go over all this in detail to make sure I understand completely before starting or ordering the bits. If I have any questions then I'll add them.
I really am amazed at the response and really appreciate it. Awesome.

 

[Guigsy]

You also need to open the yellow occupancy joiner clip, normally zip tied to the side of the seat.

Is this the seatbelt pre-tensioner connector? Isn't it a good idea to disconnect the main cab battery while playing with that to avoid airbag warning lights on the dash?

 

[autorouter]

The Votronic has another connector next to the AES one to supply a trickle charge to the starter battery. A cable from that can go into the starter battery junction on the back of th EBL or to block 2 (?) on the front that supplies the fridge on 12 v

You are right that this is what you have to do on some EBL models, where Pin 2 of the 3-way solar connection (Block 6) is not connected to the starter battery. The EBL99 for example.

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[BouncyBoatFolk]

Is this the seatbelt pre-tensioner connector? Isn't it a good idea to disconnect the main cab battery while playing with that to avoid airbag warning lights on the dash?

Hands up, I didn't disconnect the battery, but I seem to have been lucky with no dash warnings showing. Good shout though.
Mike

 

[Guigsy]

Hands up, I didn't disconnect the battery, but I seem to have been lucky with no dash warnings showing. Good shout though.
Mike

I didn't either... I was also fine. But I gather it's a bad idea.

 

[JohnZeus]

I've digested and read not only your comments above but also all the relevant links you've provided. I'm keen to get this right so I will be putting together a summary of what you've all said so that it's clear in my mind and on paper. I'll get to it in the next few days and then look forward to the replies and corrections.
Again, thanks

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[JohnZeus]

OK, so I've drawn a simple wiring diagram attached from solar panels to controller to EBL 101. Please excuse the simplification.

My questions are
Are they all correct?

Benefits of Option 3 are that it contains the 3rd wire for the Starter Battery from the solar controller,
although,
If I look at the EBL 101 circuit diagram it seems that the Starter Battery (SB) will still be charged if the Leisure Batteries (LB) are fully charged in Option 1 and

In general
The Refrigerator seems to work from the SB in 12V mode is this correct when the engine is running, or from the 240 supply if connected.
and
with Option 3 this means, I think, that the refrigerator would work, in part, from the solar if all batteries were full (I have an AES Fridge)? Is that correct with no other wiring required??
But
In Option 1 or 2 this would not be correct some sort of other wiring would be required?
If so what, where, how?


thanks, I bet I've missed something haven't I!!!!!
John

 

[JohnZeus]

Sorry Update on above, by the way I joined MotorhomeFun paid up member!!!

Thanks Paddy
Both Votronic MPPT units have connections available to :
a) AES fridge, I was told by Paddy that this could be connected to the S+ on the fridge, is there somewhere on the EBL that would do the same job? Maybe Autorouter said if I made the connection to Pin 2 on BL6 for the SB then this would also supply the fridge?
b)Starter Battery via 5A fuse to trickle charge it, can connect this to front pin 2 on BL6 or back of EBL.

I still don't understand the monitoring units, what do I need to know, charge into the Votronic unit? charge to batteries? Batteries condition?

John

 

[Lenny HB]

In drg 3 you have effectly paralleled the leisure and starter battery you must not do that.
You need to connect the starter battery output to pin 2 on block 6.
The connections on the EBL are just connections to the batteries except the leisure battery is connect via the internal shunt but that is only relavant if you have control panel that shows current.
The EBL only charges the starter battery when on EHU.

The S+ connection is only avaliable at the fridge, refer to my eairler post you may need to fit a relay.

Monitoring, the Votronic or Schaudt units just show current & power from the solar and battery voltage.

The Victron units don't show the solar but show the battery voltage, current, percentage charge, amp hours used & more, which is much more useful.

Sceenshot from my BMV.

Screenshot of history

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[autorouter]

That connection of the LRM1218 isn't correct. You should not join the leisure battery and starter battery connections with a direct connection.

There are separate outputs for the leisure battery and starter battery from the LRM1218. There's a bit of electronics inside the LRM to safely keep them separate and control the current flows. I think the LRM1218 comes with a suitable cable, and also a small 4-way data cable to connect to the control panel so the display gives all the information.

You can do a similar thing with the Votronic. If you get the Duo, it has a starter battery output that can go to pin 2 of the 3-way connector.

 

[JohnZeus]

Great.
Ok, so I'm going to get a Votronic Unit., see updated diagram for my understanding for my EBL101, pin 2 on BL6 is connected through to starter battery in wiring diagram, so, I've drawn as suggested.

In terms of Battery monitoring It looks like the Victron 712 is best, do you agree?
What's the best way to wire it so that I can monitor the performance of a 2 battery Leisure system and the starter battery?

Lastly do you recommend anyone to buy the Votronic and Vitron. I've got a price for the votronic from a guy call Charlie Lun in New Zealand, bizarrely, that seems a pretty good price (cheaper than in the UK anyway)

John

 

[Burgo]

a Schaudt MP 20-T control panel (I haven't got an English manual for this).

You can easily download it from Schaudt's website. Can't send the link, as its a "one use only" link so you just need to diy. All the manuals are on there and most in English, French etc as well as German.

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[autorouter]

In terms of Battery monitoring It looks like the Victron 712 is best, do you agree?
What's the best way to wire it so that I can monitor the performance of a 2 battery Leisure system and the starter battery?

Sorry to say this after all these efforts, but if you're going to fit a BMV 712 there's not much point in sending the solar amps through the EBL. Also I've just seen a picture of the MP 20-T and it doesn't look like there's any State-Of-Charge (Amp-hour) indicator on it anywhere. Might as well wire the solar power directly to the leisure battery

The BMV712 has a 'shunt' (technically a sense resistor) that is wired into the main negative battery feed so that all the amps pass through it. A small wire goes to the battery positive, which measures the battery voltage and provides the tiny amount of power required for the BMV electronics. There is a data wire that goes to a display unit, which can be located wherever is convenient. The 1 in the '712' means it has Bluetooth capability built-in, so you can download an app to display the info on your smartphone.

If you like smartphone apps you could look at the Victron SmartShunt, which is very similar to the BMV 712 but has no display - the info shows on the smartphone app only. Saves the bother of routing the wire and mounting the display, if you're going to mostly use the smartphone app anyway. The BMV 712 and SmartShunt have a connection for either monitoring the starter battery voltage or connecting a temperature sensor for the battery. Note that it only measures the voltage of the starter battery, not the amps or state of charge.

 

[autorouter]

You can easily download it from Schaudt's website. Can't send the link, as its a "one use only" link so you just need to diy. All the manuals are on there and most in English, French etc as well as German.

On the support page, enter 'MP 20' into the search box ('Suchen'). The page says that the manual for the MP 20-T is the same as the MP 20. It's not a very good search engine. 'MP 20T' without the hyphen doesn't find anything.

 

[huck999]

I did ours the easy way - New 40A mppt controller and 600w solar panels. Bypass the Schaudt and wire output of controller to leisure batteries via fuse. Leave original connection from Schauldt to allow charging from engine when travelling or when no sun. View panel on mppt shows state of play for the panels and the original dethleffs monitor panel shows leisure and engine battery charges.
It's a real pain getting the seat out (no problems with warnings though) but I found room for 2x110Ah (just).
Some schauldt manuals on here - https://www.manualslib.com/brand/schaudt/

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[JohnZeus]

Again thanks to everyone. I really like to plan all my work well before I start, hopefully, all the info you have provided has not only been of great use but also has made me think further and the monitor seems like a good idea
So, I'm after all that I will use:
Votronic MPP 350 with wiring as shown on my diagram, I like the idea of going through the EBL as I believe it then won't get it's nickers in a twist, but even if it wouldn't I'm still happy to do it as Udo Lang advised.
I will fit a monitor as I've no real idea of the condition of the batteries, so this will give me an idea.
The Victron SmartShunt sounds the best for me, I saw it on the Victron before Autorouter told me about it, but it's still good to get advice, I'll always have my phone so why not and then no real fitting problems as it the unit can be hidden.

All in all I want to make this system as removable as I can so that it can move with me if I ever change vans.

Final item to select is Solar panels.
Should I start a new thread?
I'll be measuring the space on the roof of the van in the next few days so I can get an idea of arrangement but if you have advice on type / supplier / etc that would be great. I've seen some reasonably priced Monocrystalline units at Sunshine solar
<Broken link removed>
is there any reason these wouldn't be a good buy?

 

[JohnZeus]

Also
I've downloaded the Schaudt MP 20-T manual, (so thanks for that) as you say not much to know about really and nothing for Solar.
I'm sorted with seat removal, very helpful, but need a friend with muscles to help, will do that soon and I can then get the leisure batteries out and charge them using my CTEK battery charger which has a conditioning function.

By the way I still can't figure how to monitor both leisure batteries and the starter battery, total 3 batteries with the Victron BMV ,
I think I will need a second BMV?

 

[JohnZeus]

Solar panel wise, is it better to have a many more smaller panels rather than a less number of larger ones.
Eg. 3 x100 watt panels rather than than 2 x150 in parallel of course?

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[autorouter]

if you link both batteries in parallel and monitor the negative feed, as most people do, the BMV won't monitor the two leisure batteries separately, it treats them as one big battery.

Linking in parallel forces the voltages of the two batteries to be the same, so there is no point in using the extra voltage measuring terminal to measure the leisure battery voltages in a parallel setup. It was designed for situations like a 24V setup with two batteries in series, where it can monitor the midpoint voltage between the two batteries. It finds a use in motorhomes to monitor the starter battery voltage.

If you really want to monitor each leisure battery separately, you'd need one BMV for each battery, then find a way to add the amp-hours of both batteries to give you the overall total. Possible, but a bit more than most motorhomers want.

Since you are not actively using the starter battery while parked, just keeping it topped up, then monitoring the voltage is usually sufficient for most people, rather than a separate BMV with a full amp-hour counting system which would to most people seem a bit OTT.

 

[autorouter]

Solar panel wise, is it better to have a many more smaller panels rather than a less number of larger ones.
Eg. 3 x100 watt panels rather than than 2 x150 in parallel of course?

On a motorhome roof, with existing obstructions like rooflights and aerials, it's a matter of what is the best fit. It's easier to work out what to do if the panels are all identical. And there's the obvious point of more fixings and more connectors = more grief.

 

[JohnZeus]

Yes, battery wise that makes sense to me.