Did you buy a van off eBay from a Hire Company in Cambridgeshire? (1 Viewer)

[Ivory55]

So basically is it right that people have bought motorhomes to rent out through this rogue company, the rogue company have then sold the motorhomes which didn’t belong to them and the original owners did not know this?
Legally the original owners are the legal owners still?

I think that the rouge company brought the vans with a chatel mortgage but never disclosed or repaid it so the debt is still on it.

 

[Chris137]

So basically is it right that people have bought motorhomes to rent out through this rogue company, the rogue company have then sold the motorhomes which didn’t belong to them and the original owners did not know this?
Legally the original owners are the legal owners still?

Hi Paul. Loans were secured against the motorhomes but the investors did not "own" them. The company was within it's rights to sell the MHs but were required to repay loans or give alternative security. This didn't happen in many cases hence the legal actions.

 

[Abacist]

My take on this is as follows:-
1) The motorhome owner/investor who lent their Moho to the hire company secured their asset with a chattel mortgage (like a bank taking security over your house for lending you money)
2) the hire company earned revenue from the mohos but then sold them without good title and pocketed or spent the proceeds on themselves
3) Innocent purchasers bought the motorhomes but cannot get good title from someone selling it fraudulently without good title
4) The original owners find out that they have been defrauded so claim back the motorhome based on their chattel mortgage and the fact that they are the true owner.
5) Innocent buyers only recourse is against the people to whom they paid the money thinking they were buying a van when the person selling it did not have good title.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Abacist]

Innocent defrauded buyers should sue the directors of the company they bought from, petition for their bankruptcy, apply to have the directors struck off, report to administrator/liquidator etc having taken proper legal advice and on satisfactory evidence return the Moho to the true owner to avoid further costs in legal fees, depreciation etc. You have effectively bought a stolen vehicle!
The law needs changing with greater consumer protection and a tightening up do that chattel mortgages can be searched for by HPI et al!

 

[Sapper520]

Innocent defrauded buyers should sue the directors of the company they bought from, petition for their bankruptcy, apply to have the directors struck off, report to administrator/liquidator etc having taken proper legal advice and on satisfactory evidence return the Moho to the true owner to avoid further costs in legal fees, depreciation etc. You have effectively bought a stolen vehicle!
The law needs changing with greater consumer protection and a tightening up do that chattel mortgages can be searched for by HPI et al!

Pinning down some of these people is almost impossible. My son tried taking a plumbing company to court over poor work on a complete bathroom. This was a company from a Trade Recommended website!

As soon as the company got the legal papers from him they went into liquidation. Within a month they were up and running under a different company name. Unless you’ve got deep pockets you have to consider cutting your losses. Son was out of pocket by nearly £10k.
These Company Directors know how to side step the law.

 

[Chris137]

My take on this is as follows:-
1) The motorhome owner/investor who lent their Moho to the hire company secured their asset with a chattel mortgage (like a bank taking security over your house for lending you money)
2) the hire company earned revenue from the mohos but then sold them without good title and pocketed or spent the proceeds on themselves
3) Innocent purchasers bought the motorhomes but cannot get good title from someone selling it fraudulently without good title
4) The original owners find out that they have been defrauded so claim back the motorhome based on their chattel mortgage and the fact that they are the true owner.
5) Innocent buyers only recourse is against the people to whom they paid the money thinking they were buying a van when the person selling it did not have good title.

That’s pretty much it except the investors don’t own the MHs any more that your mortgage company owns your home. Unbeatable Hire had the right to sell and as a ‘mercantile agent’ gave clean title. The internal records of who was repaid and what security was provided was conveniently lost. The police are investigating fraud cases against the company but I don’t expect there will be any criminal charges against the Directors. The Police have also confirmed that none of the Motorhomes were sold illegally.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Brains]

It sounds to me like the bottom line is:

For the next few years, don't buy a second hand Chausson except possibly from a major dealer (big enough to be able to take the hit if it turn out bad.)

I seem to remember seeing an incomplete list of the registration numbers of many of the vehicles
(Plates can of course be changed, but it would be a start)

 

[Janine]

Presumably, as this has been going on for a while, some of the dodgy motorhomes will have been traded in to dealers by their unsuspecting owners.

Would the people who then bought a van in good faith from the dealer have some recompense as the dealer would not have done due diligence?

 

[Insider]

Why is it just Chausson motorhomes? Given that is a simple answer(or not) shouldn’t Chausson get involved legally to protect their brand, if only to stop the same c&#t from doing it again as this must be having an affect on 2nd hand prices, esp now with the publicity.

I bought an autocruise in 2019 and brought it back to Ireland. I do wonder what the approach would be if it were one of the Chattel specials.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Maluisarot]

Be cautious when buying a second hand Chausson. Why?

For the next few years, don't buy a second hand Chausson except possibly from a major dealer (big enough to be able to take the hit if it turn out bad.

I think this could be a damaging approach to the second hand market for all used chausson motorhomes. Not every single one that came out the factory was bought by unbeatable so the majority of there won't be affected by this diabolical problem. If everyone stops buying Chausson the to***rs that ran unbeatable have made even more people a victim of their actions.

Unbeatable didn't exclusively operate chausson units. Other manufacturers VIN numbers appear within the chattel mortgages listed at companies House. Should we encourage people to not buy those to and bring down the entire used motorhome market?

In summary of what I've heard on radio 4:
1)Investors gave money to Unbeatable. These investors were largely individuals who wanted to buy a motorhome but were encouraged to invest as it saved them having to maintain, store, insure, tax and MOT nor suffer any depreciation but could instead recieve money back and use one for free [already sounding too good to be true]. Some even invested more than one motorhome. A few companies also used it as an imbest opportunity.

2)This money was to be used by unbeatable to buy a a brand new motorhome.

3)A chattel mortgage was provided by unbeatable to the investor and told them if anything ever went wrong, they could claim the asset listed. Ie, the vehicle with the corresponding VIN listed on the chattel mortgage

4) Investors would benefit 10% interest per year, a portion each booking and their full investment back at the end of thee years. They'd also be able to use it for a few weeks of the year for free [which may sound too good to be true, right?]

5)Unbeatable had sold some of these motorhomes to private buyers as second hand units before they went bust. They were entitled to do this. However, they were supposed to provide the investors with an updated chattel mortgage listing a VIN number relating to one of the vehicles unbeatable still owned. They did not to this

6) unbeatable went bust [unsurprisingly given their business plan centered about continually borrowing on depreciating assets] the interest payments stopped going to the investors who then went to the administrators to claim the motorhome listed on their chattel mortgage only to be told it couldn't be found/had been sold/was stolen/lost in a fire.

7) The investors then got their solicitors to obtain the private buyers details from the DVLA and contacted them to make a claim on behalf of their client stating they were the real owners.

[shady side note]unbeatable had reported none of these thefts to the police. Some of the investors money was used to buy used motorhomes. Some vehicles had more than one chattel mortgage applied and given to different investors who now have to Scrabble between themselves for it.

Beyond this I don't know much more. I hope the innocent buyers win a court case and get to keep what they'd bought in good faith.

Although I empathise with the investors, having not being provided with everything Unbeatable had offered, I think they should realise that every investment carries risk and therefore they may get back less than what they put it [it's literally stated on every investment advertisment]. They also recieved their interest and booking payments whilst unbeatable were in operation.

I can't even begin to fathom how the directors of Unbeatable have been allowed to start up another company doing the exact same thing having defrauded millions of pounds out of people and the victims of their slimy actions have been so far reaching. How is that justice?

 

[Sapper520]

I can understand how the poor victims of this, from when it first started, got caught out.

However, a quick search on the internet by a potential investor today would throw up numerous articles about this poor practice.

It defers belief that people don’t research anything……it’s not hard to do today.

 

[Chris137]

I can understand how the poor victims of this, from when it first started, got caught out.

However, a quick search on the internet by a potential investor today would throw up numerous articles about this poor practice.

It defers belief that people don’t research anything……it’s not hard to do today.

Yes, research will show you these scams exist but not if the vehicle you want to buy is affected (not all but most were Chaussons). The solicitor on the BBC programme said finding out if your vehicle is affected by a Chattel Mortgages is virtually impossible as it doesn't show on any of the usual HPI checks etc you'd do before buying any vehicle. Even dealers and finance companies have been caught out by this and they are experts in the industry.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Mrsambulancekidd]

Yes, research will show you these scams exist but not if the vehicle you want to buy is affected (not all but most were Chaussons). The solicitor on the BBC programme said finding out if your vehicle is affected by a Chattel Mortgages is virtually impossible as it doesn't show on any of the usual HPI checks etc you'd do before buying any vehicle. Even dealers and finance companies have been caught out by this and they are experts in the industry.

You beat me to it.

 

[Chris137]

Presumably, as this has been going on for a while, some of the dodgy motorhomes will have been traded in to dealers by their unsuspecting owners.

Would the people who then bought a van in good faith from the dealer have some recompense as the dealer would not have done due diligence?

Yes, but you can only claim against the dealer if the investor goes to court and wins possession of the van. In the meantime you are in limbo and whilst you are still free you use it, you will be reluctant to spend any £££ on it with this hanging over your head.

 

[125BEER]

Driving back from Dorset yesterday saw a "Chausson" on a recovery truck unfortunate in any circumstance.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Chris137]

I think this could be a damaging approach to the second hand market for all used chausson motorhomes. Not every single one that came out the factory was bought by unbeatable so the majority of there won't be affected by this diabolical problem. If everyone stops buying Chausson the to***rs that ran unbeatable have made even more people a victim of their actions.

Unbeatable didn't exclusively operate chausson units. Other manufacturers VIN numbers appear within the chattel mortgages listed at companies House. Should we encourage people to not buy those to and bring down the entire used motorhome market?

In summary of what I've heard on radio 4:
1)Investors gave money to Unbeatable. These investors were largely individuals who wanted to buy a motorhome but were encouraged to invest as it saved them having to maintain, store, insure, tax and MOT nor suffer any depreciation but could instead recieve money back and use one for free [already sounding too good to be true]. Some even invested more than one motorhome. A few companies also used it as an imbest opportunity.

2)This money was to be used by unbeatable to buy a a brand new motorhome.

3)A chattel mortgage was provided by unbeatable to the investor and told them if anything ever went wrong, they could claim the asset listed. Ie, the vehicle with the corresponding VIN listed on the chattel mortgage

4) Investors would benefit 10% interest per year, a portion each booking and their full investment back at the end of thee years. They'd also be able to use it for a few weeks of the year for free [which may sound too good to be true, right?]

5)Unbeatable had sold some of these motorhomes to private buyers as second hand units before they went bust. They were entitled to do this. However, they were supposed to provide the investors with an updated chattel mortgage listing a VIN number relating to one of the vehicles unbeatable still owned. They did not to this

6) unbeatable went bust [unsurprisingly given their business plan centered about continually borrowing on depreciating assets] the interest payments stopped going to the investors who then went to the administrators to claim the motorhome listed on their chattel mortgage only to be told it couldn't be found/had been sold/was stolen/lost in a fire.

7) The investors then got their solicitors to obtain the private buyers details from the DVLA and contacted them to make a claim on behalf of their client stating they were the real owners.

[shady side note]unbeatable had reported none of these thefts to the police. Some of the investors money was used to buy used motorhomes. Some vehicles had more than one chattel mortgage applied and given to different investors who now have to Scrabble between themselves for it.

Beyond this I don't know much more. I hope the innocent buyers win a court case and get to keep what they'd bought in good faith.

Although I empathise with the investors, having not being provided with everything Unbeatable had offered, I think they should realise that every investment carries risk and therefore they may get back less than what they put it [it's literally stated on every investment advertisment]. They also recieved their interest and booking payments whilst unbeatable were in operation.

I can't even begin to fathom how the directors of Unbeatable have been allowed to start up another company doing the exact same thing having defrauded millions of pounds out of people and the victims of their slimy actions have been so far reaching. How is that justice?

Great synopsis.The Financial Services Bill commits the Government to look at the Goods Mortgages issue, within their review of consumer protection which it is due to start this month. Whether this will be in time to help the current buyers I don't know, but if introduced should at least help future buyers.

 

[Sapper520]

Yes, research will show you these scams exist but not if the vehicle you want to buy is affected (not all but most were Chaussons). The solicitor on the BBC programme said finding out if your vehicle is affected by a Chattel Mortgages is virtually impossible as it doesn't show on any of the usual HPI checks etc you'd do before buying any vehicle. Even dealers and finance companies have been caught out by this and they are experts in the industry.

It’s a legal nightmare I know.

My main point was that research produces the links to dodgy connected companies.

 

[Chris137]

Yes, b

It’s a legal nightmare I know.

My main point was that research produces the links to dodgy connected companies.

Yes, only if you are buying direct from a "dodgy" company. Otherwise it is hard to find out if the van was ever owned by the dodgy companies.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Sapper520]

Yes, b

Yes, only if you are buying direct from a "dodgy" company. Otherwise it is hard to find out if the van was ever owned by the dodgy companies.

Agreed. However, there are companies trading at the moment who it is easy to find the links to. Therefore, why even consider buying from them when the trail to them is all over the internet?

I not talking about the victims already in the pipeline, it’s trying to help people who could become victims.

Some simple checks about a trading company reveals lots of information.

 

[gus-lopez]

As soon as the company got the legal papers from him they went into liquidation.

Best to serve it on the owners of the company personally. That way they have no get out.

 

[Maluisarot]

Great synopsis.The Financial Services Bill commits the Government to look at the Goods Mortgages issue, within their review of consumer protection which it is due to start this month.

Cheers! Interesting to note I'll have to have a look into that.

The only thing that could change the law governing chattel mortgages I knew of was the proposed "Goods Mortgages Bill" which has only just had it's first reading in the House of Lords so is years away and has a lot of obstacles to navigate.

It's utterly stupid to think a law from 1878 hasn't been update to provide any consumer protection in these situations

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Sapper520]

Best to serve it on the owners of the company personally. That way they have no get out.

You’ve got to find them first. All Director details in my sons case were the company address or a C/O address. To track down and serve the paperwork was looked into and costs were expensive , but as I said, he decided to cut his losses.

 

[Simon Select]

This would seem to be a problem for all buyers, whether private or through dealers, because even the dealer could be conned when taking in a MH, so could not be sued if the owner of the MH through a chattel mortgage later turns up to reclaim it.

I wonder what dealers do to protect themselves? Do they have Title Insurance?

Maybe Simon - Alan Kerr would provide an answer to that question.

Geoff

Yeah it can be a problem. We have been lucky so far...
log book loans are another problem. You go to somewhere like cash converters take a loan out against your vehicle then part exchange it.
I can find out about chattel mortgages but it’s a pain in the ass quite frankly.
With regards to matey that has been told to walk away about 20 times that keeps challenging it, go and buy it. You obviously want it. I am sure the Funsters won’t say I told you so!
When a certain other dealer went pop i hpi’d and checked a load of vehicles for Funsters for weird finance policies on their vehicle.
I will do the same again. If you bought a Chausson from a Cambridge based firm PM me the details (Reg and Mileage) and I will look into it for you for free.
I am mentally flat out so please don’t kick off if it takes me more than 10 minutes!
Simon

 

[Simon Select]

I don’t know if it would fully work but if I was buying now I’d want the MD of a company to sign a personal statement to say there was no loans secured against the vehicle and it was his company’s sole ownership and free to sell. If they won’t sign walk away. If they do sign then it would be fraud if something were wrong which seem to have been the problem with previous deals that the company owners can disassociate themselves from the loans.

What if they actually had no knowledge of it?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Kannon Fodda]

What if they actually had no knowledge of it?

I don't know, and I did say that I wasn't sure if it would fully work, and perhaps the dealer with genuinely no knowledge would have a defence. I'm just looking for ways for the customer to gain some protection when the current system seems a bit broken.

I appreciate there are many many legitimate dealers, unfortunately one rogue is enough to put fear into many purchasers. If it is difficult for those in the trade to be sure they have good title to MH's then for the consumer, even worse. I recall threads where NE Camper were somehow securing stocking loans or not clearing them, against vehicles they had sold.

 

[SpeedyDux]

You’ve got to find them first. All Director details in my sons case were the company address or a C/O address. To track down and serve the paperwork was looked into and costs were expensive , but as I said, he decided to cut his losses.

Allowing Directors not to disclose the address where they live is a fairly recent change to Company law. I think we can thank the animal rights terrorists for that.

What if they actually had no knowledge of it?

I doubt if that helps in civil cases, but it might do if the dealer is prosecuted for fraud.

 

[Chris137]

History repeating itself??

Another Motorhome Investment Opportunity that looks to good to be true?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Sapper520]

River Motorhomes Ltd? Took 1 minute to find their website.

Starting point for anyone to do their digging…….they even use the word Chattel. Another clue to do some research.

 

[Sapper520]

Interesting fleet of hire vehicles……..just saying……not implying anything.

RIVER MOTORHOMES LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

RIVER MOTORHOMES LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

Been running since February 2020.

Directors names crop up for at least one other company registered in Romford Essex………there’s a trail to follow if buyers / investors are bothered to follow it.

 

[CazPaul]

Interesting fleet of hire vehicles……..just saying……not implying anything.

Plus the one they have for sale too.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}