Continued starting woes ... (1 Viewer)

[pappajohn]

Would stay away from the easy start/hairsparay option and get to the root of the problem. It sounds like a low compression or low cranking speed problem. Going down the start you bastard spray is like a drug once you get on you can’t get off

Yep.... That's why I said......

Occasional emergencies ONLY.
It doesn't do your engine any good using it as a regular starting aid.

 

[Spriddler]

When giving a statement to the copper after the firm's very troublesome Transit van had been nicked from my factory car park I told him that if they traced the thief I'd like to meet him. The plod cautioned me that any physical contact would be unlawful. I assured him that I wasn't intending to duff him up but just wanted to find out how he managed to start it.

 

[PeteH]

What Mileage on the engine?. Sounds to me, that you have exhausted all the external options.? Do you have any Blue/Black or even white? Smoke when it does start?. A Diesel engine is a "compression ignition" device. Worn Bores, Broken rings, worn/leaking valves etc; will reduce compression. That compression is esential to raise the Fuel/Air mixture to a temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite. With a cold engine that is even more essential, glow plugs assist, but are not the panacea. Improving the state of the Ancillaries, will increase chances, but are not the answer for a Worn Engine. If your Garage cannot find an answer, ask if they can do a Compression test?.

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[jockaneezer]

People always seem to decry easystart/ether sprays, saying it will wipe the lube from your bores and kill your engine. What they always fail to realise is that in a lot of cases, there's already a problem and the engine is often on its last legs anyway. (Not saying this is true for your case !)
If the engine won't start because of poor compression due to mileage/abuse/worn bores, then squirting a bit of ether in isn't gonna kill it, but it might start it ?
A 2 second squirt, shared over a 3 litre volume will hardly take the bores back to bare metal, especially as there will be oil splashing about below the pistons and lubricating diesel is being squirted in via the injectors above the pistons.
Our old Unimog actually had a fitting on the intake to let you screw a can of ether onto and had a remote lever in the cab to let you give it a squirt for starting under Arctic conditions.

 

[27 TUG]

Hi have you changed the complete fuel filter and housing had this crack and suck in air over night on customers trucks and vans fuel runs back to tank try before you start it pump the button on the filter to get fuel back up then start it might help Andy

 

[Gromett]

I went through a similar situation to you. Over a period of years it gradually got worse and worse. Multiple garages failed to diagnose the issue.

Eventually Wildbill tracked it down to one injector seal, which was allowing diesel through back to the tank prevent the rails from building up enough pressure.


New injector for £138 and it starts immediately now.

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[Gromett]

People always seem to decry easystart/ether sprays, saying it will wipe the lube from your bores and kill your engine. What they always fail to realise is that in a lot of cases, there's already a problem and the engine is often on its last legs anyway. (Not saying this is true for your case !)
If the engine won't start because of poor compression due to mileage/abuse/worn bores, then squirting a bit of ether in isn't gonna kill it, but it might start it ?
A 2 second squirt, shared over a 3 litre volume will hardly take the bores back to bare metal, especially as there will be oil splashing about below the pistons and lubricating diesel is being squirted in via the injectors above the pistons.
Our old Unimog actually had a fitting on the intake to let you screw a can of ether onto and had a remote lever in the cab to let you give it a squirt for starting under Arctic conditions.

I don't think that is the reason it is not a good idea. I think it has a different combustion pressure so either fires early or late. I have used it twice and the noises from the engine certainly didn't sound healthy and not something I would want to do more than once.

Your unimog was an older engine? Newer engines are built to finer tolerances and are a bit more delicate than their old school cousins.

 

[RobWid]

Hi Thanks all for the wealth of suggestions - sorry I can’t respond to all but thanks.

Step one has been to explore the deodorant (ready to hand easy start) worked wonders ? Can anyone explain why this works?Eitherhanks again.

Step two will be to add another earth strap from the engine to chasis as suggested - changing the negative battery earth strap and gearbox to chassis strap bit help it turn noticeably faster.

Other suggestions - many have suggested the starter motor which was one of my suspects. But will want it testing so I’m not wasting money - pocket have been getting rapidly shallower recently with the only benefit that I’ve got to know my engine better ?.

Rob

 

[RobWid]

I don't think that is the reason it is not a good idea. I think it has a different combustion pressure so either fires early or late. I have used it twice and the noises from the engine certainly didn't sound healthy and not something I would want to do more than once.

Your unimog was an older engine? Newer engines are built to finer tolerances and are a bit more delicate than their old school cousins.

Thanks for this as wondering whether it was harmful even it it worked ... started right away but yes was rough for a moment.

... and the injector suggestion since the pressure on the fuel rail and injectors seem likely since the system doesn’t seem to allow fuel and so the engine to fire if the pressure is not correct.

But is this was the case - eg starting conditions not being met why will it jump start off another car -effectively running off the charge from their alternator but equally not keen on a second battery?

I’m puzzled.

Rob

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[Wildbill]

Thanks for this as wondering whether it was harmful even it it worked ... started right away but yes was rough for a moment.

... and the injector suggestion since the pressure on the fuel rail and injectors seem likely since the system doesn’t seem to allow fuel and so the engine to fire if the pressure is not correct.

But is this was the case - eg starting conditions not being met why will it jump start off another car -effectively running off the charge from their alternator but equally not keen on a second battery?

I’m puzzled.

Rob

Easy start washes away the carbon cussing a older engine to lose compression washing the boors and valve seats those cusing lost compression this is where the addiction myth comes from the more you use it the more it want's as the boors get more and more washed as the rings lose carbon
bill

 

[Wildbill]

Hi Thanks all for the wealth of suggestions - sorry I can’t respond to all but thanks.

Step one has been to explore the deodorant (ready to hand easy start) worked wonders ? Can anyone explain why this works?Eitherhanks again.

Step two will be to add another earth strap from the engine to chasis as suggested - changing the negative battery earth strap and gearbox to chassis strap bit help it turn noticeably faster.

Other suggestions - many have suggested the starter motor which was one of my suspects. But will want it testing so I’m not wasting money - pocket have been getting rapidly shallower recently with the only benefit that I’ve got to know my engine better ?.

Rob

Check the bruses on the starter motor if you are good mech way a good strip down and cleen with brake and clutch cleaner can make all the difference
just cleaning up the earth points both on the straps and ignition system most electrical problems are earth problems
a leek down test on the injectors would be a good idea
bill

 

[Gromett]

... and the injector suggestion since the pressure on the fuel rail and injectors seem likely since the system doesn’t seem to allow fuel and so the engine to fire if the pressure is not correct.

But is this was the case - eg starting conditions not being met why will it jump start off another car -effectively running off the charge from their alternator but equally not keen on a second battery?

A battery voltage will drop when under load. However when jump starting the other alternator is likely to support the battery voltage allowing slightly faster turnover. This faster turnover may allow the pressure to build faster than it is being lost due to the leak.

I am not saying this is the cause. A drop test of the injectors is very simple to do. Wildbill showed me how. Disconnect the outlet pipe on each injector in turn and crank. If they all release diesel at the same rate then it is not likely the cause. However on mine, one injector was peeing diesel out much much faster.

It could also be the lift pump? If it is failing but still working, it might not be pumping enough fuel to start the engine but once the main pump is going it can support the engine running. Again voltage may be key.

I have a cigar lighter based voltage monitor and it is surprising how much the voltage drops when cranking.

I am only guessing here as I am not a mechanic, but I do have electrical quals/experience.

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[Wildbill]

Gromett did you get your springs done?
bill

 

[Gromett]

Gromett did you get your springs done?
bill

Not yet. too busy with work. Need to book a full day off to go to louth

 

[pappajohn]

Easy start washes away the carbon cussing a older engine to lose compression washing the boors and valve seats those cusing lost compression this is where the addiction myth comes from the more you use it the more it want's as the boors get more and more washed as the rings lose carbon
bill

How much are you putting in Bill.
If you spray the equivalent amount used per start into a small container it would barely be enough to wet the container.
You yourself know it was common practice to add a couple of gallons of petrol (a damned good solvent) to a trucks diesel tank in winter to stop gelling.
That petrol also went into the engine, every time it was started and all the time it was running, and as a solvent it would wash the bores and break up carbon if a quick spray of ether does.
Either is a gas, under pressure its a liquid like any other gas. Once you spray the easy start the pressure is gone so by the time it gets to the cylinder its a gas again.... How can a gas wash lube from cylinders

In my opinion it becomes addictive is because it makes starting easy, you then try without and struggle to start so out comes the ether. Next time it won't start, out comes the ether..... Next time don't bother trying, use the ether.
You just convinced yourself because you used it a few times with success it won't start without it.

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[Macca1954]

How much are you putting in Bill.
If you spray the equivalent amount used per start into a small container it would barely be enough to wet the container.
You yourself know it was common practice to add a couple of gallons of petrol (a damned good solvent) to a trucks diesel tank in winter to stop gelling.
That petrol also went into the engine, every time it was started and all the time it was running, and as a solvent it would wash the bores and break up carbon if a quick spray of ether does.
Either is a gas, under pressure its a liquid like any other gas. Once you spray the easy start the pressure is gone so by the time it gets to the cylinder its a gas again.... How can a gas wash lube from cylinders

In my opinion it becomes addictive is because it makes starting easy, you then try without and struggle to start so out comes the ether. Next time it won't start, out comes the ether..... Next time don't bother trying, use the ether.
You just convinced yourself because you used it a few times with success it won't start without it.

No sorry mate totally disagree easy start is a killer use it regular will damage you’re motor. In the older days US older mechanics used to put a bit of petrol in the derv to stop the winter waxing. Those days are gone now

 

[pappajohn]

No sorry mate totally disagree easy start is a killer use it regular will damage you’re motor. In the older days US older mechanics used to put a bit of petrol in the derv to stop the winter waxing. Those days are gone now

We'll have to agree to disagree I think except I also said early on. . In the odd emergency situation only.
And those days have gone because the refineries HAD to include additives for winter diesel for the mass diesel engined car market.
It wouldn't have done the car industry any favours having their cars waxing in winter.

 

[cornish boy]

There are a huge number of industrial engines out there with Ether based starting aids for arctic conditions.
John Deere used to fit all the Waterloo block 6 cylinder engines with Ether start systems as standard.

The main difference is that a properly installed Ether start system uses jets to regulate the quantity of Ether, whereas EasyStart is completely un-regulated. If you hear the engine knocking when it starts up using EasyStart, you know are using way too much!

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[Macca1954]

We'll have to agree to disagree I think.
And those days have gone because the refineries HAD to include additives for winter diesel for the mass diesel engined car market.
It wouldn't have done the car industry any favours having their cars waxing in winter.

Yes you are correct dreaming agents are now added I remember the times when you could pay for anti waxing. Or a bit of petrol. Also remember the days of easy start all gone now if you’ve got to use it in this present day you’ve got a problem and need to deal with it. As long as its not a buggered old gardener

 

[RobWid]

A battery voltage will drop when under load. However when jump starting the other alternator is likely to support the battery voltage allowing slightly faster turnover. This faster turnover may allow the pressure to build faster than it is being lost due to the leak.

I am not saying this is the cause.

Hi Grommet

Thanks for all the advice seems you were spot on. Decided that whilst deodorant works wonders things still needed sorting properly and so the van is presently in Bristol at a garage that was recommended for specialising in fuel pump and injector issues. Anyway main problem was injector 1 which failed their leak test in a spectacular manner! They tested much as you described but with a fancy set of bottles. There is also a small leak on the high pressure fuel pump - just misting but have had to bite the bullet and get that rebuilt as well (wishing now I’d waited to get that cam belt changed).

Your in car voltage meter sounds much like mine - mines wired in to where the cigaret lighter was and I have to agree the indicated voltage drop is disturbing on starting.

Anyway I’ve learnt a lot through this and improved a number of areas electrically and soon fuel as well so time not wasted.

I’ve also learnt a few life saving tips such as the deodorant one?.

Sadly also through this learnt the limitations of my RAC break down cover.

Thankfully a tax return will cover the bill this time around - just need the van to behave for a few months and fly through the next MOT with no issues and then costs can average out.

Thanks again to everyone for their advice.

Rob

 

[Gromett]

Hi Grommet

Thanks for all the advice seems you were spot on. Decided that whilst deodorant works wonders things still needed sorting properly and so the van is presently in Bristol at a garage that was recommended for specialising in fuel pump and injector issues. Anyway main problem was injector 1 which failed their leak test in a spectacular manner! They tested much as you described but with a fancy set of bottles. There is also a small leak on the high pressure fuel pump - just misting but have had to bite the bullet and get that rebuilt as well (wishing now I’d waited to get that cam belt changed).

Your in car voltage meter sounds much like mine - mines wired in to where the cigaret lighter was and I have to agree the indicated voltage drop is disturbing on starting.

Anyway I’ve learnt a lot through this and improved a number of areas electrically and soon fuel as well so time not wasted.

I’ve also learnt a few life saving tips such as the deodorant one?.

Sadly also through this learnt the limitations of my RAC break down cover.

Thankfully a tax return will cover the bill this time around - just need the van to behave for a few months and fly through the next MOT with no issues and then costs can average out.

Thanks again to everyone for their advice.

Rob

Wow, not often I am right on mechanical things. I have to give credit to Wildbill who taught me everything I know

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[Gromett]

Decided that whilst deodorant works wonders

My bus broke down on the way back after picking it up from London. Got a diesel mechanic out to me. He came in his wifes car as his was in for it's MOT. He swore a little when he realised he didn't have any easy start with him. He dug around in his wifes car and came back with a jumbo sized tin of hair spray. That started the bus up straight away.

It is the propellent used which I believe is butane? that allows it to start.

In my case it was the diesel shut off valve that had a dodgy connection. He proved it was a fuel issue by using the hairspray then moved onto the fuel supply.