Can I justify lithium, really? (1 Viewer)

[BigDean]

I have spent many months on this and am still not convinced that lithium is worth it FOR ME.

I think I fully understand the different technologies, so this is my summary:

I am going to install 300w + of solar.

I can’t think of anything I need 230v for, so no need for an inverter. (I am installing a large underslung gas tank for the fridge and rarely have the heating on).

We will only be “off grid” for a week at a time before going to a campsite/aire for a night or 2 to fill/empty/charge etc.

So my plan for electric is that 2 batteries and a Poweroak as a backup/portable will suffice.

Disregarding weight and cost as they are known factors, from what I see is this:

AGM will discharge to 50%. Yes, lithium will go down to maybe 0, but in the real world you wouldn’t routinely want to risk below say 25%. So the benefit is 1/4.

I may go to cold areas which causes issues with Lithium charging. I know batteries are now coming out with built in heating but not yet in general circulation without spending thousands.

Then the number of cycles. Yes, lithium will give you thousands whereas AGM will be hundreds; but given I change my motorhome every 3-5 years, AGM will probably outlast my ownership.

Now, I think I have researched this subject, but there are many much more experienced people in here, so wait in anticipation for your thoughts

Thanks
BigDean.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Interesting analysis. Common sense as well

I would add that I could take the Lithium and the bits with me when I sell the van and use them in the next, re-installing (reconnecting) the old kit and getting a lead battery.

Not sure I get the cold argument though as the batteries are effectively inside the van and certainly in a warmer place when the van is in use

 

[cmcardle75]

I have spent many months on this and am still not convinced that lithium is worth it FOR ME.

I think I fully understand the different technologies, so this is my summary:

I am going to install 300w + of solar.

I can’t think of anything I need 230v for, so no need for an inverter. (I am installing a large underslung gas tank for the fridge and rarely have the heating on).

We will only be “off grid” for a week at a time before going to a campsite/aire for a night or 2 to fill/empty/charge etc.

So my plan for electric is that 2 batteries and a Poweroak as a backup/portable will suffice.

Disregarding weight and cost as they are known factors, from what I see is this:

AGM will discharge to 50%. Yes, lithium will go down to maybe 0, but in the real world you wouldn’t routinely want to risk below say 25%. So the benefit is 1/4.

I may go to cold areas which causes issues with Lithium charging. I know batteries are now coming out with built in heating but not yet in general circulation without spending thousands.

Then the number of cycles. Yes, lithium will give you thousands whereas AGM will be hundreds; but given I change my motorhome every 3-5 years, AGM will probably outlast my ownership.

Now, I think I have researched this subject, but there are many much more experienced people in here, so wait in anticipation for your thoughts

Thanks
BigDean.

Everyone needs to do their own calculation. However, I found that with 300Ah of Lithium for £1200 and with an existing B2B, I could feasibly last a week without solar (or even driving), which saved me £600 and lots of installation hassle, and £125 on a smart shunt. Also, solar's pretty useless in winter, so would allow way longer off grid.

So comparison in my case, the lithium costs £200 more overall than fitting solar, and gives me 3 times the effective capacity, which is enough for me to wild camp for a week in winter. The B2B will effectively make this infinite, as I don't stay still. The bluetooth BMS will tell me if I've gone overboard on usage and I can plan in an EHU for a night to reset.

My battery is installed in the heated habitable area (lithium safer for this than lead acid as no gassing). Thus, there should be no problems charging in cold weather.

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[Minxy]

From your usage you don't need lithium IMV so why not go for gel, much better discharge rate than lead or AGM and have a longer lifespan too.

 

[Two on Tour]

Our lithium is in the hab area under the seating and as DuxDeluxe says, keeps warm enough while we are using our van and for when we are not, the battery is kept from going below 5c by the heat mat it sits on which is controlled by a £10 Chinese digital thermostat.

 

[BigDean]

Interesting analysis. Common sense as well

I would add that I could take the Lithium and the bits with me when I sell the van and use them in the next, re-installing (reconnecting) the old kit and getting a lead battery.

Not sure I get the cold argument though as the batteries are effectively inside the van and certainly in a warmer place when the van is in use

I agree about moving it to the next motorhome, and that's how I justify many upgrades to the other half, but in reality, it is a pain in the butt, and last time, just did a deal to leave it "as is" and have all new on the new unit.

Fair point on the temp when occupied, but monitoring this winter when on the drive, the current battery was commonly below 5 degrees, so even with solar and Lithium, I would have to leave hooked up the whole time, just in case the temp drops and there is not enough solar power.

That actually starts another question about the motorhome when not in use. We have a NE237 controller which is intelligent with regards charging, so just leave on 24/7. Once I have solar, would I be better leaving the solar to keep the batteries charged which of course is the "cycling" every day, or permanently on EHU which should keep them at the "float" (?) charge?

Thanks.

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[BigDean]

From your usage you don't need lithium IMV so why not go for gel, much better discharge rate than lead or AGM and have a longer lifespan too.

Ah, gel. I havent looked into that. Will have a search on the forum

 

[Two on Tour]

Lithium batteries charge cycle is bulk followed by absorption and no float, which they don't like.

 

[cmcardle75]

I agree about moving it to the next motorhome, and that's how I justify many upgrades to the other half, but in reality, it is a pain in the butt, and last time, just did a deal to leave it "as is" and have all new on the new unit.

Fair point on the temp when occupied, but monitoring this winter when on the drive, the current battery was commonly below 5 degrees, so even with solar and Lithium, I would have to leave hooked up the whole time, just in case the temp drops and there is not enough solar power.

That actually starts another question about the motorhome when not in use. We have a NE237 controller which is intelligent with regards charging, so just leave on 24/7. Once I have solar, would I be better leaving the solar to keep the batteries charged which of course is the "cycling" every day, or permanently on EHU which should keep them at the "float" (?) charge?

Thanks.

Remember, unlike lead acid, a LiFePO4 doesn't require a float. Indeed, a float charge will cause long term damage, although a lower "power supply" voltage can be acceptable.

For long term storage, charge to about 60% and isolate to prevent any charging or loading. This will provide better longevity than keeping on charge (even a reduced PSU voltage). It will last many months, if not years, if so isolated. Wire your solar or mains charger to keep your cab battery topped up without relying on transferring via the leisure battery.

You do need to check your BMS doesn't cause long term parasitic load and remember to fully charge the day before you set off on your travels.

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[poppycamper]

I have lithium and would not be without it.
One critism I have, is it the cost of lithiums that are also putting you off them.. if so you mention a Poweroak as backup.. without googling them I don't know what weight and cost of them but I would not think they would be cheap or particularly small and light weight.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

That actually starts another question about the motorhome when not in use. We have a NE237 controller which is intelligent with regards charging, so just leave on 24/7. Once I have solar, would I be better leaving the solar to keep the batteries charged which of course is the "cycling" every day, or permanently on EHU which should keep them at the "float" (?) charge?

I have a vanbitz installation which according to the app that comes with it simply keeps everything nicely controlled (leisure and engine) from the solar, even in the winter in storage. Used the van first time last week for MOT and everything nicely charged after three months of non use. I trust Vanbitz expertise and knowledge to do it all properly so that nothing is damaged.

P.S. Ducks don't "do" electrickery

 

[cmcardle75]

That actually starts another question about the motorhome when not in use. We have a NE237 controller which is intelligent with regards charging, so just leave on 24/7. Once I have solar, would I be better leaving the solar to keep the batteries charged which of course is the "cycling" every day, or permanently on EHU which should keep them at the "float" (?) charge?

Best will be a mains charger with a "storage" voltage even lower than float, such a Victron Bluesmart IP22. This will substantially reduce sulphation and water loss from the cells. However, if you don't have access to mains, the solar will do the job, at the expense of slightly increased wear on the battery. You may have trouble December to February if your parasitic loads exceed what can be replaced during the solar cycle. If repeated daily, this can cause significant wear on the battery even if the battery bank doesn't drop below 50%.

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[BigDean]

I have lithium and would not be without it.
One critism I have, is it the cost of lithiums that are also putting you off them.. if so you mention a Poweroak as backup.. without googling them I don't know what weight and cost of them but I would not think they would be cheap or particularly small and light weight.

The cost or weight isn't an issue (within reason. Not going to spend £1200 per 100ah battery, but £600 per battery is fine). I have a poweroak anyway as I use that in my camper/dayvan.

 

[BigDean]

Best will be a mains charger with a "storage" voltage even lower than float, such a Victron Bluesmart IP22. This will substantially reduce sulphation and water loss from the cells. However, if you don't have access to mains, the solar will do the job, at the expense of slightly increased wear on the battery. You may have trouble December to February if your parasitic loads exceed what can be replaced during the solar cycle. If repeated daily, this can cause significant wear on the battery even if the battery bank doesn't drop below 50%.

Thats what I thought, so better being on EHU full time in winter.

 

[cmcardle75]

The cost or weight isn't an issue (within reason. Not going to spend £1200 per 100ah battery, but £600 per battery is fine). I have a poweroak anyway as I use that in my camper/dayvan.

Well I'm paying less than £1200 for 300Ah, which totally transformed the calculation for me.

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[poppycamper]

The cost or weight isn't an issue (within reason. Not going to spend £1200 per 100ah battery, but £600 per battery is fine). I have a poweroak anyway as I use that in my camper/dayvan.

Trust £1200 per 100ah is for lithium... you will find that they are MUCH cheaper than that now...
Take your point that you already have Poweroak.

 

[BigDean]

Trust £1200 per 100ah is for lithium... you will find that they are MUCH cheaper than that now...
Take your point that you already have Poweroak.

I appreciate that. Just to get a "brand" with heating is still expensive.

 

[BigDean]

Well I'm paying less than £1200 for 300Ah, which totally transformed the calculation for me.

Which brand did you go for?

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[Pausim]

I may go to cold areas which causes issues with Lithium charging. I know batteries are now coming out with built in heating but not yet in general circulation without spending thousands.

If you are going to get your batteries cold it may be worth adding to your list of considerations that lead acid battery performance drops off significantly when it is cold. Battery capacity is generally measured at 25°C. A 100Ah battery at 25°C is only about 80Ah at 0°C.

Lead acid battery charging in cold weather - Victron Energy

This blog covers lead acid battery charging at low temperatures. A later blog will deal with lithium batteries. Charging lead acid batteries in cold (and indeed hot) weather needs special consideration, primarily due to the fact a higher charge voltage is required at low temperatures and a lower...

www.victronenergy.com

A 100Ah LiFePO4 battery at 0°C will still deliver 90 to 95Ah.

Lithium Battery Cold Temperature Performance

When it comes to battery operation, how they perform in cold weather must be taken into account as it can be harmful to the lifespan of your battery. In this Tech Tuesday, we look at how lithium batteries perform in cold temperatures - in comparison to lead-acid – and how RELiON solved some of...

relionbattery.com

Lithium batteries charge cycle is bulk followed by absorption and no float, which they don't like.

LiFePO4 batteries only need a bulk charge but a float charge (which they don’t need) is usually about 13.8V and it will not harm them.

 

[pappajohn]

Consider GEL rather than AGM.
Similar/same charge requirements ans GEL will far outlast AGM.
Even major car manufacturers are dumping AGM as inadequate for auto stop/start systems.

 

[BigDean]

Consider GEL rather than AGM.
Similar/same charge requirements ans GEL will far outlast AGM.
Even major car manufacturers are dumping AGM as inadequate for auto stop/start systems.

Thanks for that.

My VW camper is an EFB+ starter battery, which I believe is the same characteristics as AGM, and is rubbish. Doesn't last a week if not in use..... My driveway looks like electricians spaghetti!

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[cmcardle75]

Which brand did you go for?

I went for the Roamer batteries 300Ah with Bluetooth BMS. They currently have a discount for pre-orders for dispatch in a month's time. So I can't say whether I can recommend it yet.

Roamer 320SMART3 - 12V 320Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Leisure Battery + Free Consultation

Buy the Roamer 320SMART3 and get a free electrical system design consultation worth £120. The Roamer 320SMART3 is a compact drop in 12V 320Ah LiFePO4 battery for install in a campervan, motorhome, boat or tiny house. Includes 250A continuous discharge, active balancing, Roamer BMS bluetooth app...

roamerbatteries.com

 

[BigDean]

I went for the Roamer batteries 300Ah with Bluetooth BMS. They currently have a discount for pre-orders for dispatch in a month's time. So I can't say whether I can recommend it yet.

Roamer 320SMART3 - 12V 320Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Leisure Battery + Free Consultation

Buy the Roamer 320SMART3 and get a free electrical system design consultation worth £120. The Roamer 320SMART3 is a compact drop in 12V 320Ah LiFePO4 battery for install in a campervan, motorhome, boat or tiny house. Includes 250A continuous discharge, active balancing, Roamer BMS bluetooth app...

roamerbatteries.com

That's the one I was just looking at. Saw on the T6 forums. I have emailed them to see if my existing charger would be suitable.

Thanks

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Most decent Lithium batteries will have a built in Battery Management system (BMS), which will control charging to prevent damage to the battery if it's too cold. The question is why you might need to be charging the battery when it's too cold as if it's inside the habitation area you'd be occupying and thus keeping warm when needing to charge alternatively the vans locked up and idle so you don't need to be putting a lot of energy in.

Reasons for installing lithium compared to lead acid, AGM or gel are going to come down to differing needs of how we expect to use our vehicles. Consider how much you drive around and would recharge from engine, how long you might be parked up and rely on solar alone to recharge or if you're likely to have ready available EHU. Charging systems in your vehicle of course need to have some compatibility but I suspect many over analyse the existing charger with afloat charging and temperature issues. Even on hook up, if you're concerned about the float, the charger can always be manually switched off leaving the rest of your powered electrics in the vehicle working and, if you were using 12 V stuff whilst on hook up your lithium is going to be sufficient for a number of hours before you then start to recharge it.

In my case space was the biggest issue rather than weight or even cost. I simply could not have had a battery bank of even two standard batteries. Lithium gave me the capacity I couldn't achieve in any other way. I will probably find out this summer how well 100W of solar and 120Ah lithium work when I do get the chance to be parked up for a few days in a row.

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[poppycamper]

An

Most decent Lithium batteries will have a built in Battery Management system (BMS), which will control charging to prevent damage to the battery if it's too cold. The question is why you might need to be charging the battery when it's too cold as if it's inside the habitation area you'd be occupying and thus keeping warm when needing to charge alternatively the vans locked up and idle so you don't need to be putting a lot of energy in.

Reasons for installing lithium compared to lead acid, AGM or gel are going to come down to differing needs of how we expect to use our vehicles. Consider how much you drive around and would recharge from engine, how long you might be parked up and rely on solar alone to recharge or if you're likely to have ready available EHU. Charging systems in your vehicle of course need to have some compatibility but I suspect many over analyse the existing charger with afloat charging and temperature issues. Even on hook up, if you're concerned about the float, the charger can always be manually switched off leaving the rest of your powered electrics in the vehicle working and, if you were using 12 V stuff whilst on hook up your lithium is going to be sufficient for a number of hours before you then start to recharge it.

In my case space was the biggest issue rather than weight or even cost. I simply could not have had a battery bank of even two standard batteries. Lithium gave me the capacity I couldn't achieve in any other way. I will probably find out this summer how well 100W of solar and 120Ah lithium work when I do get the chance to be parked up for a few days in a row.

Other point not mentioned by anyone and was a big decider to me was the fact lithiums can be mounted on end or sides so I managed to fit 2 x 120 lithiums in same compartment I had a 160ah AGM

 

[busbuddy]

The techy/geeky side of me would love lithium and probably an efoy as well just because I could
But.....I dont use enough power to warrant it, even in nov/dec down in cornwall wild camping I cant get anywhere near halfway down my lead acid/solar combination
I think they are great but it's all down to personal requirements

 

[BigDean]

The techy/geeky side of me would love lithium and probably an efoy as well just because I could
But.....I dont use enough power to warrant it, even in nov/dec down in cornwall wild camping I cant get anywhere near halfway down my lead acid/solar combination
I think they are great but it's all down to personal requirements

I may be coming to the same conclusion. We have a 3 night trip booked at the end of April, so we will not plug in see how much power we actually use. I suspect it will be 1 way or the other. Hardly any, or will run out in a day......

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[Clive Mott]

Without losing any effective battery capacity our change to lithium saved 62kg of weight. When you are trying to squeeze back under that 3500kg limit that is mighty significant.

 

[poppycamper]

We are not particularly heavy leccy users and we don't have an inverter ( coffee out of a perfectly adequate cafetierre and Mrs Poppycamper has been told (not by me, you understand ) that her hair dryer won't work. We also only watch tv when weather is pish!!!
Also our style of vanning is without EHU and we dont have B2B but we do have solar and once we on a site we tend to stay there, we regularly stay on a THS for 2/3 weeks.
But we have gone lithium route...why?
Lots on here say, unless you are heavy users with an inverter then lithiums are pointless.... I disagree... it totally depends on your life style
As I said we don't watch much tv.. but if the weather is yuck we might do..
And there lies the rub.. loads o sunshine..sitting outside.. no telly-- batteries full... weather turns yuk-- no sunshine.. telly on..batteries empty. We have all seen it with lead batteries at 50% and telly dies because they cant handle the load telly demands. Not with lithium.
Remember I said once on site we stay on site and dont drive around to charge batteries ( sure there must be a some around who go for a drive to charge batteries with the excuse to visit places they not interested in seeing or even worse sit with engine running for an hour or so. Seen that in pub car park van next door only 6ft away engine starts at 7am. ) so my what may seem an expensive and extravegant 240ah of lithium power is not.
So to summarize IMV lithiums are not just for those who have inverters to power coffee machines/hoovers/ hair dryers/hair straighteners/hair curlers.and on and on. But also for the other half who only want to extend their off grid time and give them peace of mind and not be so dependant on Mrs Sunshine.

 

[BigDean]

We are not particularly heavy leccy users and we don't have an inverter ( coffee out of a perfectly adequate cafetierre and Mrs Poppycamper has been told (not by me, you understand ) that her hair dryer won't work. We also only watch tv when weather is pish!!!
Also our style of vanning is without EHU and we dont have B2B but we do have solar and once we on a site we tend to stay there, we regularly stay on a THS for 2/3 weeks.
But we have gone lithium route...why?
Lots on here say, unless you are heavy users with an inverter then lithiums are pointless.... I disagree... it totally depends on your life style
As I said we don't watch much tv.. but if the weather is yuck we might do..
And there lies the rub.. loads o sunshine..sitting outside.. no telly-- batteries full... weather turns yuk-- no sunshine.. telly on..batteries empty. We have all seen it with lead batteries at 50% and telly dies because they cant handle the load telly demands. Not with lithium.
Remember I said once on site we stay on site and dont drive around to charge batteries ( sure there must be a some around who go for a drive to charge batteries with the excuse to visit places they not interested in seeing or even worse sit with engine running for an hour or so. Seen that in pub car park van next door only 6ft away engine starts at 7am. ) so my what may seem an expensive and extravegant 240ah of lithium power is not.
So to summarize IMV lithiums are not just for those who have inverters to power coffee machines/hoovers/ hair dryers/hair straighteners/hair curlers.and on and on. But also for the other half who only want to extend their off grid time and not be dependant on Mrs Sunshine.

Thanks for your input. TV not an issue for us, but we will be monitoring when we are next away and make the decision based on our actual useage. I have installed a Victron Smartshunt and CerboGX to monitor the load and see what happens. Hoping that the Victron monitoring is the heaviest draw!

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