Brake Buddy, A-Frame, HGV Licence

[ukrv]

Come on then, let's get these out of the way now so we can all move on sooner rather than later.

Your views on the legality of :-

1) Brake Buddies

2) A-Frame use for everyday towing

3) HGV Licence not needed for 7.5+ ton RVs


Thanks
Paul

PS If we do it now, we can all forget about it next week

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Paul

1) Ilegal under EU and UK Law
2) Ilegal under EU and UK Law
3) Only case ever taken to court was dropped, I spoke to DPP and they could not tell me under what law he was being prosecuted, If you ring now they will tell you that the case is filed with Wolverhampton DPP.

 

[johnsandywhite]

:Confused: I thought that 'A' frame towing was a slightly GREY area in that no one had yet been prosecuted just like the driving of? :Confused:

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi John

No a grey area is where a law is open to different interpretations, with regard to A Frames the law is very clear.

The law behind driving of motorhomes over 7.5 Tonnes is harder to quantify

 

[Wobby]

How come then the people who use A frames are not being prosecuted, or don't the police know
Wobby

 

[ukrv]

OK, that's that done then - shall we move on now :thumb:

Paul
:Rofl2:

 

[scotjimland]

OK, that's that done then - shall we move on now :thumb:

Paul
:Rofl2:

Link Removed

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Wobby

Better things to do? Maybe they dont know the law, ask your average plod and he probably wont even know that its ilegal.

 

[justme AKA Grath]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is only legal for recovery and up to a certain speed

 

[Geo]

Heres my two Pennies worth
Ilegal
Ilegal
Ilegal based on the wording of a current uk licence ie ANY vehicle
as I uunderstood it years ago it was possible to drive a motor home over 7.5 ton as
these fell into what I belive is best descibed as unclassified and were deemed to be car rated for tax MOT etc and by default a car licence seemed to do it for the authorities in those days, however the current type of licence is not open to interpritaion
yes Graham recovery only at 20mph and 40 mph depending on road type
Geo

 

[smithies]

A google of " A Frame " then follow threads the Dept of transport says they are legal.?? Dollies can be used with a limited speed 20 to 40mph....Still I use an A Frame and have for 3 Years....Still think its "Grey".......

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Geo

Ilegal based on the wording of a current uk licence ie ANY vehicle

Yes According to current UK licence wording, but this must be backed up by a RT Act, In several discussion's with DVLA and their legal dept they could not point to a Road traffic act that supported the ANY vehicle part, though this is changing as they slowly turn over to EU law staring from Jan 97 licences, all previous acts specified HGV and I have confirmed with Construction and Use Marsham that a Motorhome cannot be construed as a goods vehicle (unless it actually is a goods vehicle too) note that Construction and Use Marsham are named in the Acts as final arbitors of vehicle classification.

Pre 97 Licence would be extremely easy to prove, post 97 Licence may be harder they have subtely changed the wording however they have NOT listed it as a change from previous RT Acts

 

[Geo]

Hi George
An Interesting interpretation George, I feel you may have coverd this subject before, I base that comment on potted history quoted by others, I have only been into MH for about 18 months, and have not had the privelage of seeing all the posts on it, how do insurance companies view the situation, would you personaly drive over 7.5 ton on an ordinary car licence,
Geo

 

[johnsandywhite]

An Interesting interpretation George,

:Confused: That is the BIG problem with rules and regulations. They are open to a vast range of INTERPRETATION. oh:

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Geo

They state you must have a valid licence for the vehicle driven......

Yes I would/have, do I think everyone should? thats a difficult question, some people who have licences that according to the law means they can drive any size motorhome, I would not personally trust driving any kind of van.

Personally I think everyone should get training to drive larger vehicles, but here we are only discussing the law as it stands.

Consider this, at present a car licence allows you to drive a minibus this can be any size up to 44 tonnes (as long as it has the requisite number/type of axles) this still only requires a class IV MOT the same as a car.

The Law is a total mess...........

PS thats only for licencing on the Brake buddies and A frame it is absolutely clearly ilegal

 

[Geo]

Mmmmmmmmmm re the licence, I don't think I personally would chance it

thats only for licencing on the Brake buddies and A frame it is absolutely clearly ilegal

On that subject I have read a lot, I do use one with cable operated brakes ,but choose to use a brake buddy in preference, for the record, I agree they don,t appear to comply with UK trailor regs
Geo

 

[GeorgeTelford]

A google of " A Frame " then follow threads the Dept of transport says they are legal.?? Dollies can be used with a limited speed 20 to 40mph....Still I use an A Frame and have for 3 Years....Still think its "Grey".......

Hi Smithies

Sorry I missed your post, no I dont thinks its a grey area at all, its completely ilegal to transport a vehicle about in this way, its only legal for recovery here is the missing and very criucial line.......


"An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety."

 

[johnsandywhite]

Perhaps this might help:-

Link Removed

 

[justme AKA Grath]

But Guys, is not a trailer better as you can reverse it and control where it goes?

 

[Xoxoc]

But Guys, is not a trailer better as you can reverse it and control where it goes?

A trailer can certainly be reversed much more easily than a car on an a-frame.

 

[dazzer]

Ok so no-one has ever been prosecuted for driving a big motorhome on a car license. But what about A frames ??

 

[scotjimland]

But Guys, is not a trailer better as you can reverse it and control where it goes?

Yes, it's better until your on a site with limited space to park the trailer.. this is where the A frame (legal or not) wins hands down. Also, if for whatever reason you have to un hitch to maneuver, a car with an A frame is much easier to move than a trailer.

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Ok so no-one has ever been prosecuted for driving a big motorhome on a car license. But what about A frames ??

Hi Dazzer

Those are 2 different things entirely, in the case of driving the motorhome its not ilegal (see thread about it for full details) and in the case of A frames it is clearly ilegal under EU and UK construction and use law.

 

[Geo]

For the record mine has both breakaway and overrun cable operated brakes George, I will try and capture a pic tomorrow, I do however as previously stated use a Brake buddy, I feel it works better than the cable set up but thats not the point of this discussion

Personaly feel there has been a divide in regulation circles and what has happened is in fact the A frame as legistated for is in fact not used for towing behind a motorhome ie the recovery type does not have a direct conection with the broken down vehicle other than chains around the wishbones, weras the ones used predominantly are a fixed item to the towed car, the term A frame should prehaps not be applied to these devises, rather trailor hitch/adapter as that, in truth is what it is
Have I found a way round it ???its not an A frame officer, its a hitch adapte. anyone got the number for the pattent office
Geo

 

[woodyold]

recovery frames attatch to the towed vehicle in a different way ,sometimes lifting the front wheels off the road and are not braked. Anyway lets drop the subject it will never go away , if you want to use a braked a frame use one , in this country anyway.

 

[mercuryarv]

A Frames, Brake Buddy, Hgv Licence

Hi all, Let me add a little fuel or thought to the fire. A frames are legal to use on the highway, the normal towing limit applies providing you have the 60MPH sticker on the car the same as a trailer has to. All the other sections of the law apply in respect of towing. If the vehicle that is being towed is over 750kgs, it will need to be braked. Quickly moving onto the Brake Buddy, this qualifies as a means of braking. To ensure you look at the logic behind this, next time you see a truck on the highway which is referred to as 'Wagon & Drag' this is an A frame coupling, most now are also using electronically controlled braking, so if it meets Contruction & Use regs, it is fine for you.

Finally, the subject of HGV licences. A motorhome is NOT a HGV, when we import and register a motorhome, it is registered as a MOTOR CARAVAN. On a point of law, a HGV is a vehicle which is made or adapted to carry goods for hire or reward, an American Motorhome is clearly NOT. In addition, when taken for annual MoT, it requires a class 4 MoT or if fitted with a tag axle, a class 7 MoT, it also does not require a speed limiter nor does it require a tachograph, as such it is NOT an HGV.

Two final points, when you check the DVLA website, please check the disclaimer at the end of the webpages, you will note that it states you should check the facts with a solicitor as this is not legal advice. The last point is, the DVLA do NOT make the law, only Parliment can do that, then there is the rest of the due process to follow thereafter before it will appear on the statute books as a law, it never has been passed as a law. Personally, I think people should have a test to drive a Motorhome bigger than a certain size, the weight is un important, however that is not the law. I have a HGV and a PSV, but at one time I was in the Fire Service and used to instruct people to drive Emergency Appliances, and some of those were crap drivers, but at least I could weed those out, the law as it stands will let anyone drive a motorhome, however crap they are, not a perfect system, but it is what we have. It would be worth anyone at least getting some instruction if you do not have a vocational licence, you do not have to take the test, but some instruction would be helpful. Why not contact your local Fire Service and ask if the need some retained crew, chances are they may even offer you a HGV test and you could be doing something really worthwhile for you and your community.........sorry did that sound like an advert for the Fire Service? Yes it was, but from me. Hope that helps someone out there anyway. Kindest regards, Simon at www.mercuryarv.com

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Have I found a way round it ???its not an A frame officer, its a hitch adapte. anyone got the number for the pattent office
Geo

Hi Geo

lol nice try, in truth no it still doesnt conform to the regulations.

Can you reach the handbrake while standing beside the trailer? No? then its ilegal

Over-run braking now thats interesting.

Can it be reversed under control? no? then its ilegal

(sorry if this gets a bit repetative, but most of the so called solutions fail on the same grounds)

 

[Geo]

Can you reach the handbrake while standing beside the trailer

Yes it has a Handbrake lever, although why i need to reach it standing at the side eludes me, you cant do that with a normal trailer, if you mean standing at the side of the hitch Yes I can.

Can it be reversed under control

Now you can answer that for me, on our way back from Kent we stopped at a motorway services for a short break and parked so that i would not need to reverse,Unfortunately no one told the two eastern block drivers that and i was hemmed in.
I successfully reversed much to my amazement the Legnth of two artics in a straight line and then just to impress the on lookers i applied a little left lock and the car went in the right direction, but to be honest i couldn't see that it had, till it appeared in my side mirror of the RV, so was it reversed under control?? is there a minimum distance or specific maneuver to complete,
I intent at some point to apply the steering lock in the straight ahead position and try a full reverse maneuver, I am convinced that it will be possible, getting out to apply the lock before reversing is in my opinion no different to applying the lever on some caravans to prevent the brakes being applied when reversing

Simon I sooooooooooooooooooooo want to belive you
Geo

 

[GeorgeTelford]

A frames are legal to use on the highway, the normal towing limit applies providing you have the 60MPH sticker on the car the same as a trailer has to. All the other sections of the law apply in respect of towing. If the vehicle that is being towed is over 750kgs, it will need to be braked. Quickly moving onto the Brake Buddy, this qualifies as a means of braking. To ensure you look at the logic behind this, next time you see a truck on the highway which is referred to as 'Wagon & Drag' this is an A frame coupling, most now are also using electronically controlled braking, so if it meets Contruction & Use regs, it is fine for you.

Hi Mercury

the A frame is not legal I can quote chapter and verse on the regs for this.

even if a vahicle is below 750KG if brakes are fitted they must be operational, if you would like to verify this ring Marsham construction and speak to

Catharine Parton,
Vehicle Standards and Engineering,
Department for Transport,
2/04, Great Minster House,
76 Marsham Street, London SW1P 4DR.

Telephone 020 7944 2114

For the legality of Brake buddy which also does not meet construction and use, ask Catharine on the same call, you could of course read the legislation linked to above.

Regarding wagon and drag as you call it, the braking is mechanical and as such legal

 

[scotjimland]

Apologies for going off topic George, but I was curious if you will ever buy another motorhome ? I recall you were in the process of converting a coach but understand that you sold it.

Jim