Brake Buddy, A-Frame, HGV Licence (1 Viewer)

[GeorgeTelford]

Sorry this was a reply to Jim re me getting a motorhome

we really should stick top the topic in hand.....

Yes circumstances changed, but things are definately looking up and hopefully I will be on the road again by next year............

 

[mercuryarv]

A Frames Legal?

Hi George, I would have to say I still cannot agree with you, or even the office you quote, however I will check it out. The Brake Buddy uses a wireless system with breakaway protection, therefore this complies with the letter of the law. In respect of the braking system, Norr Bremse have a system which uses electronic control of the trailer brakes, we have tested this at the VOSA GVTS and they accept it as being compliant. It has also been used for many years in the USA for tag axle braking and also trailer braking. It is electro Mechanical in operation and you will also find a lot of 5th wheels use it also.

However I do not know everything and laws do change from time to time, as such I will do a little more research and fact finding/checking to ensure I know what is true. If I am wrong I apologise, and should stop using the system myself. We actually tow a Rover 115 Diesel behind our own RV, but this uses an American system with a Blackhawk plug in unit. Great system as it takes 60 seconds to fit and even less to disconnect. It needed a little modification and fabrication for the first fit, but it was worth the effort (well it was worth our engineers effort I should say) for the ease and security. Happy journeys you all. Simon @ www.mercuryarv.com

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi George, I would have to say I still cannot agree with you, or even the office you quote, however I will check it out. The Brake Buddy uses a wireless system with breakaway protection, therefore this complies with the letter of the law. In respect of the braking system, Norr Bremse have a system which uses electronic control of the trailer brakes, we have tested this at the VOSA GVTS and they accept it as being compliant. It has also been used for many years in the USA for tag axle braking and also trailer braking. It is electro Mechanical in operation and you will also find a lot of 5th wheels use it also.

However I do not know everything and laws do change from time to time, as such I will do a little more research and fact finding/checking to ensure I know what is true. If I am wrong I apologise, and should stop using the system myself. We actually tow a Rover 115 Diesel behind our own RV, but this uses an American system with a Blackhawk plug in unit. Great system as it takes 60 seconds to fit and even less to disconnect. It needed a little modification and fabrication for the first fit, but it was worth the effort (well it was worth our engineers effort I should say) for the ease and security. Happy journeys you all. Simon @ www.mercuryarv.com

Hi Simon

The relevent legisalation clearly states that braking via electronic means is not legal, ergo the nrake buddy is ilegal, ring Catharine she will confirm.

The Knorr Bremse system is air brakes with an electronic system for improving the braking, it is not an electronic brake transmission system (which is ilegal throughout the eu) Link Removed

Have a look around the Knorr Bremse brake system.

in America electronic braking is legal, they have several systems both hardwired and wireless, unfortunately they are not legal throughout the EU.

Some people dont understand how air brakes can be legal, the answer is that they default to braking mechanically, only the removal of braking force is done by the air system. ie if the air fails the brakes get applied and you cannot then release the brakes until you fix the air system.

Also some buses have electromagnetic brakes, but in this case they are supplementory to the mechanical ones.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[mercuryarv]

Hi Simon

The relevent legisalation clearly states that braking via electronic means is not legal, ergo the nrake buddy is ilegal, ring Catharine she will confirm.

The Knorr Bremse system is air brakes with an electronic system for improving the braking, it is not an electronic brake transmission system (which is ilegal throughout the eu) Link Removed

Have a look around the Knorr Bremse brake system.

in America electronic braking is legal, they have several systems both hardwired and wireless, unfortunately they are not legal throughout the EU.

Some people dont understand how air brakes can be legal, the answer is that they default to braking mechanically, only the removal of braking force is done by the air system. ie if the air fails the brakes get applied and you cannot then release the brakes until you fix the air system.

Also some buses have electromagnetic brakes, but in this case they are supplementory to the mechanical ones.

Hi George, You may well be correct, so rather than challenge, I will check. We run and operate buses and coaches as well as import/sell RV's, and one of the later coaches has electronic tag axle brakes, and yes you are correct in that it also has a Telma Electro retarder, not a brake as it will not bring the vehcile to a rest. The Brake Buddy is also operated by air, and with the break away I would have though complied with the section of the law. But I MAY WELL BE WRONG, I have been wrong before (ever heard that from a lady anyone?) Kindest regards, Simon @ www.mercuryarv.com

 

[dazzer]

Well this is all exciting stuff isnt it???

However the question still remains unanswered. Has anyone ever been sucessfully prosecuted in the UK for towing a car 4 wheels down behind a motorhome using an A frame or/and a brake buddy type braking system??:Angry:

It seems to me that if no-one has been prosecuted this is rather a pointless debate and the police obviously dont care so why should we bother???oh:

I will still be towing my Jeep behind the RV on a Falcon 2 tow system and brake buddy until i get stopped and sucessfully prosecuted!!!

Keep i it boys its like watching tennis!!!!

 

[johnsandywhite]

It seems to me that if no-one has been prosecuted this is rather a pointless debate and the police obviously dont care so why should we bother???oh:

I suppose it's a better topic and more relevant than Gassing?



















Unless of course it Gassing Batteries?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Geo]

Cant wait for the headlines


A Framer Gassed Whilst Towing

 

[johnsandywhite]

Cant wait for the headlines


A Framer Gassed Whilst Towing

Because of his Batteries?

 

[dazzer]

Because of his Batteries?

Or maybe it was his air brakes??? But then again he wouldnt have air brakes cos hes using a brake buddy!!!!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[justme AKA Grath]

Sorry this was a reply to Jim re me getting a motorhome

we really should stick top the topic in hand.....

Yes circumstances changed, but things are definately looking up and hopefully I will be on the road again by next year............

Hi George,
You will then be able to enjoy again and get out and about instead of just talking about it:thumb::Cool:
Good luck with the search:thumb:

 

[mercuryarv]

Update On A Frame Use

Hi George, I would have to say I still cannot agree with you, or even the office you quote, however I will check it out. The Brake Buddy uses a wireless system with breakaway protection, therefore this complies with the letter of the law. In respect of the braking system, Norr Bremse have a system which uses electronic control of the trailer brakes, we have tested this at the VOSA GVTS and they accept it as being compliant. It has also been used for many years in the USA for tag axle braking and also trailer braking. It is electro Mechanical in operation and you will also find a lot of 5th wheels use it also.

However I do not know everything and laws do change from time to time, as such I will do a little more research and fact finding/checking to ensure I know what is true. If I am wrong I apologise, and should stop using the system myself. We actually tow a Rover 115 Diesel behind our own RV, but this uses an American system with a Blackhawk plug in unit. Great system as it takes 60 seconds to fit and even less to disconnect. It needed a little modification and fabrication for the first fit, but it was worth the effort (well it was worth our engineers effort I should say) for the ease and security. Happy journeys you all. Simon @ www.mercuryarv.com

Well I said I would do some research and come back with a definative answer rather than argue a point I could not prove beyond reasonable doubt, so here it is. In essence it says what I had thought was true, and it comes from the DoT so we have to accept it. You will also note there is a link to EU law as well. I will still be using my Blackhawk USA towing system and also A frames, it is so called 'Dollies' that are called into question from this. Good luck all of you and at least I feel a little better now the research has proved worthwhile. Happy reading and printing off to keep with you, just in case you were to need it one day. Kindest regards, Simon @ www.mercuryarv.com

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel: 0870 600 5522
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk
Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop
Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:
Link Removed

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.


Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport

 

[GeorgeTelford]

So the correct answer is that Aframes are ilegal, basically the leeter says it would be legal if it meets certain requiremments, the very requirements that I have pointed out that it doesnt meet already ( I cannot understand how you seem to think that this letter says you are legal )

You are using a brake buddy which is ilegal under the regs quoted.

You cannot reverse under control, which is ilegal under the regs quoted.

You cannot meet the braking system requirements ( on several different levels ) under the regs quoted.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[RockieRV]

So this is what you get then??

A Frame Test Case

 

[Geo]

125 Years for using an A frame
The judge later said, if a car had been attached it would have been double
Geo

 

[dazzer]

Still no answer from anyone if there has been a prosecution for using an A frame/brake buddy. oh:

I assume no one has ever been "done" or George would no doubt be quoting us chapter and verse and giving us all the gory details!!

Looks like the car is still getting towed then!!!!:thumb:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[fordy]

Still no answer from anyone if there has been a prosecution for using an A frame/brake buddy. oh:

I assume no one has ever been "done" or George would no doubt be quoting us chapter and verse and giving us all the gory details!!

Looks like the car is still getting towed then!!!!:thumb:

Well that's you me and the other 1000's of motor-homers still towing then plus how comes the insurance companies cover us for the tow car ? if its not legal

FORDY

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi There

Fordy because they do not understand that its ilegal? They love collecting free cash, and nothing's better than collect premiums of people they already know have lied to them (safe in the knowledge that come claim time they can use your perfidious behaviour to not pay out) They do this in the case of those motorhomers that have inquired about fulltime insurance, realised they cannot get it and then use false info to insure the vehicle (using sisters address etc)

Is there any volunteer from the people that believe its ok, to meet me with a traffic policeman/vosa inspector, who will have clued up on the law about it and see what happens? (I can "see" you all hiding away to the back already)

So come on any volunteers from the I'm certain its legal brigade?

The simple reality is that reading the law tells you that its ilegal, regardless of whethor anyone as been prosecuted YET.

 

[dazzer]

The simple reality is that reading the law tells you that its ilegal, regardless of whethor anyone as been prosecuted YET.

Hi George

So what your saying is this (and I have no reason to dispute your obviously well researched information)

A frames are illegal
Brake buddies are illegal
Towing a less than 750kg car without brakes is illegal

But and this is the most important part of all this no one has EVER been prosecuted for breaking any of the above laws. Is that about the size of it??

You are also well versed in the "ins & outs" of license requirements and driving big RVs.

Ive read somewhere that you would be happy to drive any size of RV on your car license in the knowledge that NO-ONE HAS EVER BEEN PROSECUTED for doing so.

Ive also read somehwere that you would not tow a car on an A frame. Why then would you drive a 9 tonne RV but not tow a car on an A frame??oh:

I dont dispute that the law is the law but a law that is not upheld is nothing more than writing in the law books.

There are many 1000s of people who tow cars behind motorhomes, im sure that some of these have been unfortunate enough to have accidents and im sure that if an insurance company refused to pay out we would have heard about it!!!

Again it comes down to "the law is an ass" laws that are not implemented for whatever reason may as well not exist.

There are hundreds of times/places that policemen and VOSA officials could pull over motorhomes towing cars on A frames (lorry checkpoints, weigh bridges on the side of A roads etc etc), but they never do, surely this speaks volumes.

Anyway im not wanting to "pick a fight" about it, just pointing out that im sure you are correct in what you say, but as no-one really cares about it,:thumb: whats the point in worrying??

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GeorgeTelford]

But and this is the most important part of all this no one has EVER been prosecuted for breaking any of the above laws. Is that about the size of it??

Yes

You are also well versed in the "ins & outs" of license requirements and driving big RVs.

Ive read somewhere that you would be happy to drive any size of RV on your car license in the knowledge that NO-ONE HAS EVER BEEN PROSECUTED for doing so.

This is actually a misrepresentation of what I have said, its not because no-one has been prosecuted, its because the Law says I can (and a hell of a lot of research and back up from VOSA, Construction and Use Marsham, several Barristers, the legislation also does not forbid it. The only reason I even mention the lack of prosecution's is that I researched the only attempted prosecution and the Crown prosecution service could not say what law they were prosecuting under

Ive also read somewhere that you would not tow a car on an A frame.

Please do not make up alledged quotes, I have never said that I would not use an A Frame, I have merely said that it is ilegal

Why then would you drive a 9 tonne RV but not tow a car on an A frame??

Ilogical proposition, its like asking why would anyone want to be law abiding? one is legal and the other isnt, its that simple.

There are hundreds of times/places that policemen and VOSA officials could pull over motorhomes towing cars on A frames (lorry checkpoints, weigh bridges on the side of A roads etc etc), but they never do, surely this speaks volumes.

Nope, it justs shows lack of awareness

Anyway im not wanting to "pick a fight" about it, just pointing out that im sure you are correct in what you say, but as no-one really cares about it,:thumb: whats the point in worrying??

If you now accept that I am correct, then I assume you dont want to volunteer to get "pulled" on purpose? Obviously people care about it otherwise we wouldnt have so many posts.....

 

[fordy]

So the correct answer is that Aframes are ilegal, basically the leeter says it would be legal if it meets certain requiremments, the very requirements that I have pointed out that it doesnt meet already ( I cannot understand how you seem to think that this letter says you are legal )

You are using a brake buddy which is ilegal under the regs quoted.

You cannot reverse under control, which is ilegal under the regs quoted.

You cannot meet the braking system requirements ( on several different levels ) under the regs quoted.

I have just tried my tow adapter and i can reverse it as well as my trailer it has brakes and hand brake and brake-away so i must have the only legal one out there then as it was a one off made by an engineer there is no switch to select when i back up it its all auto and it conforms to all the regs maybe i should get a load of them made up ....

FORDY

 

[GeorgeTelford]

I have just tried my tow adapter and i can reverse it as well as my trailer it has brakes and hand brake and brake-away so i must have the only legal one out there then as it was a one off made by an engineer there is no switch to select when i back up it its all auto and it conforms to all the regs maybe i should get a load of them made up ....QUOTE]

Hi Fordy

The regs do not specify that you must be able to reverse the same as a trailer, obviously you could be really useless at reversing a trailer :Blush:

It is stated that it must be reversable under control, with the front wheels free to turn either way, how is it possible to reverse under control?

To get the idea if you have the space reverse a car without holding the stearing wheel it will be guesswork as to which way it will turn.

Question's

1. how does it operate the car brakes?
2. how does the over-run braking work?
3. how does the autoreverse work?

Excuse my not really just trusting you just saying this, so many times people have said "mines legal" and yet when you examine the evidence its not at all legal.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Hugh Jardon]

George

are you saying that you have never knowingly broken the law? even a little bit :Cool:

 

[GeorgeTelford]

George

are you saying that you have never knowingly broken the law? even a little bit :Cool:

Where have I said that? I have never even tried to imply it.

I strive for accurate information (even if I actually believe the law is wrong, as with licencing law, it should be like DVLA say's it is, but the law says differently)

 

[Geo]

with the front wheels free to turn either way

Hi george just a few more questions, I am not aware of any regs that state a trailor has to have steerable wheels free to turn, are you sure about that bit.

How does the auto reverse work

Again I am sure this, although desireable is not mandatory, many an older caravan has a device that prevents the overun brake being applied when reversing, and this is a flip over lever you have to manually apply, I made referance in a previous post that the same could be said about applying the steering lock to fix all 4 wheels prior to reversing

How do the brakes/overun work

I have to concede here that the cable acts on the foot brake pedal and it could be argued,in fact it proberbly will be, that it is applying the hydraulic system, ergo it is NOT fully mechanical:Blush:
comments please
Geo

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Geo

You are misreading my post, when on an A frame the front wheels of the towed car are free to turn, if you reverse they will turn in a random direction causing the car to "Jacknife".

The Autoreverse is Mandatory, it is clearly stated in the regs that the "trailer" must be capable of reversing automatically. Why you keep mentioning this "flip over lever thing" I do not know, on no trailer or caravan that I have towed over the last 25 years as there been any manual intervention required to reverse, I have never had to get out of the vehicle to flip a lever. the only flip lever I know of is the one that holds the handbrake in the event of a breakaway

here are a few random quotes of trailer law


Braked trailers must be fitted with a parking brake that operates on at least two road wheels on the same axle. At all times it must be capable of being maintained in operation by direct mechanical action without the use of hydraulic, electric or pneumatic systems – i.e. Operated by rod or cable action. The efficiency of the handbrake must also comply with EEC Directive 71/320/EEC; i.e. It must be capable of holding a stationary trailer on a gradient of at least 16% (1 in 6.25)
.

Braking requirements are prescribed in Regulations 15 and 16 of The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 as amended and essentially require a trailer with a maximum design laden weight of more 750 kg to be braked and allow an inertia (overrun) type braking system to be used up to a maximum permissible laden weight of 3500kg Note if below 750KG then it must be operational as per this section

Any braked trailers manufactured after April 1989 must be fitted with a hydraulically damped coupling and auto reverse brakes to give braking efficiencies required by EEC Directive 71/320 (ECE13)

In a nutshell still ilegal

 

[fordy]

I have just tried my tow adapter and i can reverse it as well as my trailer it has brakes and hand brake and brake-away so i must have the only legal one out there then as it was a one off made by an engineer there is no switch to select when i back up it its all auto and it conforms to all the regs maybe i should get a load of them made up ....QUOTE]

Hi Fordy

The regs do not specify that you must be able to reverse the same as a trailer, obviously you could be really useless at reversing a trailer :Blush:

It is stated that it must be reversable under control, with the front wheels free to turn either way, how is it possible to reverse under control?

To get the idea if you have the space reverse a car without holding the stearing wheel it will be guesswork as to which way it will turn.

Question's

1. how does it operate the car brakes?
2. how does the over-run braking work?
3. how does the autoreverse work?

Excuse my not really just trusting you just saying this, so many times people have said "mines legal" and yet when you examine the evidence its not at all legal.

Hi the brakes have a permanent fitted cable to the pedal and the towing coupler is from a caravan i believe, with auto reverse and has a brake away cable that applies the brake if it was to become disconnected from the tow van.
the wheels are locked so as not to turn indepently so that makes it very easy to reverse. and the car is only 750kg and i had a test on the brakes without the servo on and with more force on the pedal as would be applied by the trailer coupler it is within the legal limits on the brake tester.

but in what you are saying the law states this then means that most trailers and caravans are illegal, as all the trailers i have used you have to flip a plate over on the tow coupler to stop the brakes being applied when you reverse ?

FORDY

 

[fordy]

Any braked trailers manufactured after April 1989 must be fitted with a hydraulically damped coupling and auto reverse brakes to give braking efficiencies required by EEC Directive 71/320 (ECE13)

I just noticed this. so the answer is to buy a 1989 car then as it will become a trailer once attached to the frame as in law, and not need any brakes

FORDY

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Hugh Jardon]

i have not seen a flip plate for allowing reversing since i was a lad around 20+ years ago, i believe most/all modern trailers are automatic reversing hitchs

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Fordy

If brakes be fitted they must be working, end of story regardless of age.


This wheel locking is done manually I take it, ergo not auto and therefore not legal.

 

[fordy]

i have not seen a flip plate for allowing reversing since i was a lad around 20+ years ago, i believe most/all modern trailers are automatic reversing hitchs

I must say that the ones i use are not that modern but even with them you can still back up OK if its engaged and moved slowly..

FORDY

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}