Beware of what you wish for - Canary Islands (15 Viewers)

[Northernraider]

Assuming those "millions" consider material wealth/ownership important in their lives...

I do, but only where it allows me to pursue my interests, outside of that, I have no interest in other people's wealth

I agree we're heading for a crash, but only because the modern penchant for green-eyed-monster-ism is driving us into the arms of communism/marxism...

No I'd say greed is pushing is that way.

It's always greed.

I'm amazed that in this day and age there are still people who think it's poor people that have created the worlds issues and not the wealthy.

It's quite astounding .

 

[Northernraider]

The bit that makes me laugh about this situation in the canaries is the contradiction. The locals are protesting about all the hotels and the houses being built for holiday let's etc pushing up the prices. I've also seen posts on Instagram about the supermarket chains , mercadona etc increasing prices because wealthier tourists are willing to pay the increased prices etc. And I get that .

What I don't get is the government thinking the answer is to stop all inclusive type holidays and to encourage tourists who will spend more money in the local restaurants and bars .....which will effectively push up the prices and again will make it unaffordable for locals.

As usual the problem is never helped by government it's nearly always made worse. And its always ALWAYS swung to make sure they make more money.

Tourism is their biggest earner.


The latest one I read told brits to go elsewhere and wants to encourage more Americans. Because that will fix the problems the locals have in the canaries

 

[Coolcats]

Correct me if I'm wrong but what do the banks then do with that money? Don't they lend it out to people to make lives better? ie mortgages, business loans etc?

Are you a Banker or trader ? Banks steal money from people, I recall our mortgage being 15% plus how did that make peoples life better I recall interest rate hikes meant people went bust but the Banks did not loose they never do. In ice land post 2008 Bankers were sent to jail but not here and many other countries

 

[The Wino]

The bit that makes me laugh about this situation in the canaries is the contradiction. The locals are protesting about all the hotels and the houses being built for holiday let's etc pushing up the prices. I've also seen posts on Instagram about the supermarket chains , mercadona etc increasing prices because wealthier tourists are willing to pay the increased prices etc. And I get that .

What I don't get is the government thinking the answer is to stop all inclusive type holidays and to encourage tourists who will spend more money in the local restaurants and bars .....which will effectively push up the prices and again will make it unaffordable for locals.

As usual the problem is never helped by government it's nearly always made worse. And its always ALWAYS swung to make sure they make more money.

Tourism is their biggest earner.


The latest one I read told brits to go elsewhere and wants to encourage more Americans. Because that will fix the problems the locals have in the canaries

I can actually see the point of encouraging hotels that aren't all inclusive. In an all inclusive hotel the jobs created in the local area are largely going to be in low paid positions with the emphasis being on efficiency in providing food and drinks at the lowest cost with the profits being most likely taken off the island. If they spend their money in the local bars etc it's likely to employ more people and the profits from the buisness are more likely to be retained on the island. If you're going to have a certain amount of tourists the biggest benefit to the local economy is going to be if those tourists spend more and more in local businesses.

 

[EssexBoy]

Are you a Banker or trader ? Banks steal money from people, I recall our mortgage being 15% plus how did that make peoples life better I recall interest rate hikes meant people went bust but the Banks did not loose they never do. In ice land post 2008 Bankers were sent to jail but not here and many other countries

No.. I'm in IT...

Should we get rid of computers because some scammer exist?
Should we get rid of motorhomes because some people drop their black waste inappropriately?

Wasn't it the socialist Labour government that set the 15% interest rate? Should we get rid of Labour then?

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[The Wino]

No.. I'm in IT...

Should we get rid of computers because some scammer exist?
Should we get rid of motorhomes because some people drop their black waste inappropriately?

Wasn't it the socialist Labour government that set the 15% interest rate? Should we get rid of Labour then?

The interest rates aren't set in isolation from the rest of the economy any government at times of high inflation needs to use interest rates as one of the ways of trying to control inflation in fact with the b of e now setting rates independently it's not the government that decides. That isn't to say that the government in charge of allowing inflation to rise isn't responsible in part at least in general of course they blame outside forces for poor economic performance but claim the credit if outside forces create a successful economy whichever flavour the politicians are.

 

[EssexBoy]

No I'd say greed is pushing is that way.

It's always greed.

I'm amazed that in this day and age there are still people who think it's poor people that have created the worlds issues and not the wealthy.

It's quite astounding .

Agreed... greed is not good generally...

What I don't believe is the cause and effect assumption that because someone has more money than someone else, then that's why the world is going to hell in a handcart...

I mean, if that we the case, anyone with say £100k in the bank, a gas guzzling vehicle, a polluting diesel, that seeks out opportunities not to pay for their accommodation, contributes little to local economies, blights local beauty spots with their parking and enslaves multiple animals for their own amusement would surely be called greedy, right?

To avoid doubt, I'm joking...

 

[EssexBoy]

The interest rates aren't set in isolation from the rest of the economy any government at times of high inflation needs to use interest rates as one of the ways of trying to control inflation in fact with the b of e now setting rates independently it's not the government that decides. That isn't to say that the government in charge of allowing inflation to rise isn't responsible in part at least in general of course they blame outside forces for poor economic performance but claim the credit if outside forces create a successful economy whichever flavour the politicians are.

To be fair, we were discussing mortgages and loans ability to make life better, not government fiscal policy's infinite capability to make life worse...

I'll be eternally grateful for one set of my grandparents decision to get a mortgage and struggle to pay it for all their lives, so my parents (and then me) could benefit from their legacy

 

[The Wino]

To be fair, we were discussing mortgages and loans ability to make life better, not government fiscal policy's infinite capability to make life worse...

I'll be eternally grateful for one set of my grandparents decision to get a mortgage and struggle to pay it for all their lives, so my parents (and then me) could benefit from their legacy

We had the opposite experience started with nowt! Mortgages and loans can make life better if you use them sensibly but like any form of borrowing can also make things terrible and I don't see banks as benevolent institutions. Without banks though what are the options either saving until you can afford to buy something ( it would take a while to save to buy a house!) or a private loan probably on poor terms unless from a relative. It could well be that without banks property would still be owned by a very few people and a lot live in tied property and effectively slave labour

 

[Peavy]

mercadona etc increasing prices because wealthier tourists are willing to pay the increased prices

I do not think that's true. I have no connection with the company, but prices have gone up like everywhere else due to inflation etc., not because of tourism.

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[The Wino]

I do not think that's true. I have no connection with the company, but prices have gone up like everywhere else due to inflation etc., not because of tourism.

I'm not so sure Sainsbury's over here seem to have pricing for fuel dependent on the area the three supermarkets in Leicester with petrol stations often have different prices. I'm pretty sure other companies do the same the price will to an extent depend on what they can sell it at

 

[Northernraider]

I can actually see the point of encouraging hotels that aren't all inclusive. In an all inclusive hotel the jobs created in the local area are largely going to be in low paid positions with the emphasis being on efficiency in providing food and drinks at the lowest cost with the profits being most likely taken off the island. If they spend their money in the local bars etc it's likely to employ more people and the profits from the buisness are more likely to be retained on the island. If you're going to have a certain amount of tourists the biggest benefit to the local economy is going to be if those tourists spend more and more in local businesses.

And the staff will still be paid minimum wage .. only the business owner will benefit

 

[The Wino]

And the staff will still be paid minimum wage .. only the business owner will benefit

Yes but the business owners ( presumably if it's not all inclusive likely to be smaller local bars and restaurants) are more likely to be on the island and when they spend it it's likely a lot will go into the local economy. If it's a multiple hotel selling all inclusive to a UK tour operator the majority of the profit will probably go off the island.
It's the same here there are still a lot of locally owned pubs, cafés and restaurants but there's a big recently owned Wetherspoons I suspect that the profits from there do a lot less for the local economy than spending in the smaller locally owned places.

 

[Northernraider]

Agreed... greed is not good generally...

What I don't believe is the cause and effect assumption that because someone has more money than someone else, then that's why the world is going to hell in a handcart...

I mean, if that we the case, anyone with say £100k in the bank, a gas guzzling vehicle, a polluting diesel, that seeks out opportunities not to pay for their accommodation, contributes little to local economies, blights local beauty spots with their parking and enslaves multiple animals for their own amusement would surely be called greedy, right?

To avoid doubt, I'm joking...

Look I have never said that all wealth is bad , nor have I said all property ownership is bad. Excess is bad, greed is bad . And it gets worse year on year , societal conditioning ensures it.

But let's face it the world is lost it really is. .. sure it may struggle on through my lifetime but at somepoint it's going to implode and not because of climate change or any other nonsensical bs the media spouts but because there is at some point going to be mass civil war worldwide .. and to be honest I'm not entirely convinced that isn't the plan with governments.

I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories as such but there's no denying that a reset is required , some people still believe that slavery was abolished lol but it wasn't really it was just modernised , nowadays the majority of the working class are kept on or just above the breadline, they've been manipulated in to owning property etc that stops them from being able to just leave bad employment, technology has replaced many jobs in the pursuit of more profit.


But anyway I'm not really wanting to get in to all that ... I chose my lifestyle to try and escape it as much as I can , I live modestly within my means ,I withdraw more and more away from society , if there was someplace I could escape to where I could survive on my own away from everyone I would lol.

 

[Northernraider]

Yes but the business owners ( presumably if it's not all inclusive likely to be smaller local bars and restaurants) are more likely to be on the island and when they spend it it's likely a lot will go into the local economy. If it's a multiple hotel selling all inclusive to a UK tour operator the majority of the profit will probably go off the island.
It's the same here there are still a lot of locally owned pubs, cafés and restaurants but there's a big recently owned Wetherspoons I suspect that the profits from there do a lot less for the local economy than spending in the smaller locally owned places.

Sorry but I don't believe in that concept . That's the general belief that folk have been saying for decades and all the while the gap between the haves and the have nots has got wider and wider.

Everything society has been doing for at least the last 60 years has been wrong , that's why the difference nowadays between what someone earns and their ability to have a roof over their heads is a lot bigger than it was 50/60 years ago and we have far more billionaires etc.

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[The Wino]

Look I have never said that all wealth is bad , nor have I said all property ownership is bad. Excess is bad, greed is bad . And it gets worse year on year , societal conditioning ensures it.

But let's face it the world is lost it really is. .. sure it may struggle on through my lifetime but at somepoint it's going to implode and not because of climate change or any other nonsensical bs the media spouts but because there is at some point going to be mass civil war worldwide .. and to be honest I'm not entirely convinced that isn't the plan with governments.

I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories as such but there's no denying that a reset is required , some people still believe that slavery was abolished lol but it wasn't really it was just modernised , nowadays the majority of the working class are kept on or just above the breadline, they've been manipulated in to owning property etc that stops them from being able to just leave bad employment, technology has replaced many jobs in the pursuit of more profit.


But anyway I'm not really wanting to get in to all that ... I chose my lifestyle to try and escape it as much as I can , I live modestly within my means ,I withdraw more and more away from society , if there was someplace I could escape to where I could survive on my own away from everyone I would lol.

Whilst I think there is still a really big divide between the haves and have nots I don't think a worldwide civil war will errupt and if it did at the end of it the poor will be even poorer. I think almost everyone these days has a better standard of living than when I was a teenager with better health and longer life expectancy too. If there's discontent it's because people see others with more in the UK on a world scale were very lucky.

 

[The Wino]

Sorry but I don't believe in that concept . That's the general belief that folk have been saying for decades and all the while the gap between the haves and the have nots has got wider and wider.

Everything society has been doing for at least the last 60 years has been wrong , that's why the difference nowadays between what someone earns and their ability to have a roof over their heads is a lot bigger than it was 50/60 years ago and we have far more billionaires etc.

Isn't distributing spending between smaller local businesses rather than it all being in large publicly owned ones exactly that going back to the way buisness was done with the drive towards large business being one of the drivers of inequality?

 

[Northernraider]

Isn't distributing spending between smaller local businesses rather than it all being in large publicly owned ones exactly that going back to the way buisness was done with the drive towards large business being one of the drivers of inequality?

If there was more of a profit sharing idea going on then yes I'd agree with you but many small businesses main goal is to be a bigger business. So they do the Same thing they maximise profit, pay minimum wage and hope to either retire early or expand the business. I'd prefer to see them be happy with a reasonable profit and a decent standard of living and their staff to be paid more so they too can have a decent standard of living.

But let's face it that is not how it works . Those big businesses started off small once too and they just grew and grew at the expense of their staff..

 

[Northernraider]

Whilst I think there is still a really big divide between the haves and have nots I don't think a worldwide civil war will errupt and if it did at the end of it the poor will be even poorer. I think almost everyone these days has a better standard of living than when I was a teenager with better health and longer life expectancy too. If there's discontent it's because people see others with more in the UK on a world scale were very lucky.

There has to be another war soon whether its a civil one or an escalation of the Ukraine/Russian one .... or maybe the next round of covid.

Fact is there's just too many people.

But the thought that the poor end up poorer is one outcome the other is that they use their numbers to overpower the elite. That's always been the fear which is why we have the media to encourage divide . Because if people could see past that and actually stand together there would be many empires falling.


I'm just sorry I probably won't live to see it lol

 

[nicholsong]

There is a political element in this thread which I am surprised is being permitted to continue by Jim

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[Jim]

There is a political element in this thread which I am surprised is being permitted to continue by Jim

I don't read every post, if you see someone posting something that's against the rules here, then report it and that guarantees that at least I see it. No one has reported anything in this thread yet.

 

[Bleau’s]

I have a villa in the canaries the government are getting rich out of all licensed villa owners 20%tax and 7%vat on all income that is after booking agents 20% that is why owners are selling up the local businesses want to tourists not a town full of locals

 

[EssexBoy]

There is a political element in this thread which I am surprised is being permitted to continue by Jim

Really sorry, but must disagree... I'm not at all sure how a civilised discussion about real-life local & global social issues is political, let alone against the rules...

 

[nicholsong]

Well the previous post to yours mentioned the effects of the policies of the local government.

[EDIT: There are also several Capitalist and Anti-Capitalist views being expressed, which are often the bedrock of different political parties.

 

[Spriddler]

nowadays the majority of the working class are kept on or just above the breadline, they've been manipulated in to owning property etc that stops them from being able to just leave bad employment,

In the 70's and 80's when I was with an American blue chip consumer goods group mostly employing Ivy League 'whizz-kids' it was a firmly upheld yet unwritten policy not to promote anyone to a managerial position unless they had a partner, one or more children and a mortgage......oh, and no facial hair.

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[Northernraider]

Well the previous post to yours mentioned the effects of the policies of the local government.

This entire thread is political ? It's the

I do not think that's true. I have no connection with the company, but prices have gone up like everywhere else due to inflation etc., not because of tourism.

I didn't say I believed it to be true ...I'm saying that on a post I saw on Instagram the other day about mercadona the comment section was full of Spaniards claiming the store increased prices because tourists were willing to pay it as they found it cheaper than their own countries.

I only read the post because I happen to like the mercadona supermarket and when I'm in Spain it's my go to rather than lidl that I use pretty much everywhere else. I was surprised at the hundreds of comments from Spaniards hating on the tourists. Not sure if it's coming from the same bad publicity as the canaries etc ...who knows.


Prices definitely have increased Europe wide I've seen that myself , some places more than others but you'd be amazed at the amount of people out there who don't travel that think it only affects their country. Many brits also think only the UK has got more expensive.

 

[nicholsong]

This entire thread is political ? It's the

Tam

If you re-read my post #110 I said 'elements of', so not 'entire', as you wrote..

 

[Northernraider]

Tam

If you re-read my post #110 I said 'elements of', so not 'entire', as you wrote..

Yes but I think the entire topic is political. I mean it's basically the local residents against the government and the big businesses.


I've said it once or twice before but everything in life is political.

People who say they don't do politics must live in a bubble.


So should we just censor every discussion and topic?

What a lovely world that will be

 

[Yorick]

I have a villa in the canaries the government are getting rich out of all licensed villa owners 20%tax and 7%vat on all income that is after booking agents 20% that is why owners are selling up the local businesses want to tourists not a town full of locals

So you don't think you should pay tax?

You're getting rich off the tourists.

 

[Bleau’s]

So you don't think you should pay tax?

You're getting rich off the tourists.

After paying rates water electric cleaning gardening wifi security and accountancy we are lucky if we see 200euros per week so we are not getting rich for a 500-000 euro villa thinking of putting the cleaners out of work and shutting it up but for my use so no holiday makers to spend money in town .

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