A frame towing (2 Viewers)

[Charlie]

Our toad is also specifically covered; I made sure of that. Now my risks to others and self are covered, for the rest of it simply do as Charlie does. Accept the risk and take the risk. If pulled, the only person that will suffer is the risk taker themself, so what is the problem? As far as A frames are concerned, I will do what I want, how I want and when I want as long as it does not impact on others. We are all old enough and mature enough to make our own decisions about things; and yes, we know that they aren't legal in Spain, probably France and Germany as well, but I tell you what? We don't actually care...... it is our problem and getting a teensy bit fed up with effectively being lectured about the evils of A framing.....

Well said...

 

[CUJIMI]

Just to add my two pennorth I was on a site in Portugal with my a frame when I read the last load of frighteners about travelling in Spain with an a frame. Talk about Spanish police with guns and somali pirates. I subsequently travelled through Spain Portugal and France passed a few police cars etc. And received nothing but smiles. My friend who went on to Benidorm with his A Frame came off the motorway and passed a number of police cars and motorbike police and they never even gave him a second glance.

I believe it's up to the individual to take the risk if they want. I don't quite understand the vitriol against A Frames. Even at a 300 euro fine it's cheaper than hiring a car for a couple of weeks so I would be tempted to go again and no I dont drink drive or break the speed limit.

 

[Sunsets Unlimited.]

i am a bit confused I have been informed repeatedly that I cannot use an a frame in Spain but I am here at the Lincoln show and have talked to six people who use one and have done for lots of time and never had a problem in Spain one even stopping to ask police for directions can I or can't I use a a frame will I or will not be stopped do I just take a chance does the declaration ofCE conformity make any difference ?

Jordano,

No it doesn't.!!

Pauline and myself have "A framed" twice whilst travelling through Spain to Portugal and twice we have been stopped by the Guarda Seville. The first time was by two guys on motor cycles. They new very little of EU law in this matter when challenged by our English paperwork, even though they referred to their Spanish Bible. At the end of a pigeon English conversation, they wanted to impose an on the spot fine for an offence which they could not determine of 80 euro. We had the crack with them and they accepted 40 euro. They did give us an official print-out receipt from their on board computer. As we parted company, I said to one of the guys, "No cervasa, A.??" They smiled and we departed, still with the Matiz on tow. The second time we were stopped by the Garda Seville, it was by two guys in a marked car . We pulled over, pigeon English conversation, they told us, "A Frame towing" in Spain is an offence, and it was an on the spot fine. You've guessed it,,, they tried for 80 euro,, we paid them 40 euro which was receipted just as the other guys had done. Before they would leave, we had to uncouple the Matiz and stow the "A frame". Pauline then drove about 100 clicks to Santanda.

It doesn't matter what paperwork you can produce on EU legislation, the Spanish police say it is an offence to "A Frame" in their country and they will impose an on the spot fine and insist you uncouple the car from the towing vehicle. The Portuguese police don't seem to have a problem.!

The experience of being stopped by the police whilst "A Framing" in Spain wasn't a bad experience, but It did cost us 80 euro in total over the two trips. Me thinks that is cheap against going down solo and hiring a car at your destination. Take a chance, they will only fine you. They cant hang you for it. If you do get stopped, be nice to them and smile, negotiate the price backward and see where it gets you. Your OK so long as your companion can drive. Its quite an experience.!! Be a devil.!! We only live once. Forget the James Bond song, its not true.!!
Regards

Mike.
SunsetsUnlimited.

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[gus-lopez]

so the vienna convention rules dont apply in spain , is that what your trying to say?

They can only apply to things which are covered by national rules. A frames aren't , they are just accepted in the UK at present.

Additionally what @Billy23 didn't mention is that under one of Rajoys laws The Ley de Mudanza, known colloquially as the "citizen gagging law" , you now have to deposit 900€ to appeal any fine . This includes vehicular ones. You get it back if you win. But it might only buy you a packet of fags in a dozen years time.

 

[Sunsets Unlimited.]

"Any Spanish legalities"

Hmmmm

Smells like typical salesman BS to me.

Ask him for the specific laws and exactly how his product complies.

As has been said already whatever nonsense he cons you into believing won't get you anywhere when the Trafficos decide to fine you. You will be paying them if you want to continue your journey.

I agree.

Spanish do not accept EU Legislation in this matter. Ask the CC to pick this up and they will tell you to go away in slow jerky movements. They Know its a lost cause.!!

Pay and go in Spain. That's the sorry truth.

Mike.
SunsetsUnlimited.

 

[Benjii]

My experience towing an iq in Spain was they do not stop you on the motorways to Andalusia, but on the ordinary roads the police are now required to fund themselves, which means that particularly short tunnels and you haven't got your lights on is a good spot to monitor, we got caught and the police said that as we were paying a fine for lights he would not fine us for the A frame but it must be seperated before carrying on our journey. Three miles up the road he overtook us I think to see if we had reconnected.

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[Benjii]

Going through Mont Blanc tunnel they make you decouple, probably to make you pay for two vehicles.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Spanish do not accept EU Legislation in this matter.

There is no EU wide traffic legislation or policy for them to accept.

It is down to individual countries to legislate and apply their own law.

I know the Vienna Convention is often incorrectly offered up as supporting the case but it doesn't for two reasons:

1. The UK has never signed it.

2. People usually misinterpret it as saying that if something, in this case towing a vehicle on an A-frame, is legal in your home country it is legal for you to do it across the EU. It says nothing of the kind and it's not even an EU convention, it's an international one.

 

[Billy23]

I am surprised that this "A" frame thing always goes on for soooo long.

The bottom line is: In Spain it is against the law.
When I read the posts, I get the idea that some folk seem to be saying that, they think it is not a good law, so they will carry on regardless. I do not have a problem with that as it is the same the world over, if you are rich enough to pay the fines or charges, then so what.

It is only a problem to people that cannot afford to pay out money to effectively say sod the law I will not take any notice.

Rich person........Poorer person.......Its the same all over the world. Your money, your choice! Until of course somebody else, cheats a law that you cannot afford too, then all hell breaks loose.

I wish you all, "A" framers or not, a very happy and enjoyable weekend

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[Sunsets Unlimited.]

There is no EU wide traffic legislation or policy for them to accept.

It is down to individual countries to legislate and apply their own law.

I know the Vienna Convention is often incorrectly offered up as supporting the case but it doesn't for two reasons:

1. The UK has never signed it.

2. People usually misinterpret it as saying that if something, in this case towing a vehicle on an A-frame, is legal in your home country it is legal for you to do it across the EU. It says nothing of the kind and it's not even an EU convention, it's an international one.

As I have often found out,, There is always somebody who knows more than one does.!! Thanks for that Nick,nic.! Mike. SunsetsUnlimited.

 

[spitfire]

Why would any UK resident consider it is acceptable to break the law of another country but condem EU residents of another country for doing the same in the UK! Quoting a previous thread of Polish not reregistering their vehicles !

 

[Jerry Scarr]

i am a bit confused I have been informed repeatedly that I cannot use an a frame in Spain but I am here at the Lincoln show and have talked to six people who use one and have done for lots of time and never had a problem in Spain one even stopping to ask police for directions can I or can't I use a a frame will I or will not be stopped do I just take a chance does the declaration ofCE conformity make any difference ?

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[Speve]

I'll have to get more popcorn in this is going on longer than expected love it

 

[Sunsets Unlimited.]

You would be taking a huge risk in Spain, better make sure there are two drivers

Cant help meself.!! Now that is sound advise from one who knows and has the Tshirt. Mike. SunsetsUnlimited.

 

[Jerry Scarr]

I had our VW Up converted by Car A Tow south coast and have the documentation of EEC conformity with regards to continental towing in various languages and would not hesitate to show it to Spanish Police if stopped. The main point being missed here is that when you connect the car by an
A frame to the motor home, then attach the braking cable A frame to car brake pedal, then the lighting system Powered from the Motor Home, MH number plate covering rear car number plate and a hanging sign "Car On Tow". the car is no longer a CAR, it is not self propelled, it is now a 4 WHEELED BRAKED TRAILER..... If I were stopped I would argue the case road side. If I appeared to be losing I would take the officers details, photo graph them, split the car and partner drive it and at destination make a formal complaint to Police and take from there via my MP on return. I am a former mechanic and consider a car strapped on a 2 wheeled trailer behind a Motor home to be sheer madness. and if the Spanish insist on this then they are courting danger . One tyre blow out at say 50 mph the trailer would be liable to flip damaging car and motor home. and who else?? When towing I have my MH ride system set to 2 bar which means we are totally stable when passing articulated lorries even if they are pulling Tilts , Tautliners or Boxes. Or if vehicles are passing us.
Safety first and common sense.... trailers are a danger on the road and pain to store on camp sites too. Where it usually is Caravan and car or Motor Home and car.

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[Speve]

And on it goes people don't seem to want the truth about legalities do they? Oh well I've restocked now so carry on

 

[Scudajoh]

Naomi and I have had a house in Spain for 13 years. We were resident until 2 years ago. This is our rig Bailey autograph 745 with 5 metre twin axle braked trailer and fiat 500. Rear markers as 12 meters plus. This is the only safe way to tow in Spain behind your MH as it is illegal to tow anther vehicle on the road as mentioned above. We are in Spain at the moment.

 

[Billy23]

I had our VW Up converted by Car A Tow south coast and have the documentation of EEC conformity with regards to continental towing in various languages and would not hesitate to show it to Spanish Police if stopped. The main point being missed here is that when you connect the car by an
A frame to the motor home, then attach the braking cable A frame to car brake pedal, then the lighting system Powered from the Motor Home, MH number plate covering rear car number plate and a hanging sign "Car On Tow". the car is no longer a CAR, it is not self propelled, it is now a 4 WHEELED BRAKED TRAILER..... If I were stopped I would argue the case road side. If I appeared to be losing I would take the officers details, photo graph them, split the car and partner drive it and at destination make a formal complaint to Police and take from there via my MP on return. I am a former mechanic and consider a car strapped on a 2 wheeled trailer behind a Motor home to be sheer madness. and if the Spanish insist on this then they are courting danger . One tyre blow out at say 50 mph the trailer would be liable to flip damaging car and motor home. and who else?? When towing I have my MH ride system set to 2 bar which means we are totally stable when passing articulated lorries even if they are pulling Tilts , Tautliners or Boxes. Or if vehicles are passing us.
Safety first and common sense.... trailers are a danger on the road and pain to store on camp sites too. Where it usually is Caravan and car or Motor Home and car.

I have highlighted part of your post above, only to say that I don`t think that you quite understand Spanish police. I have spent lots of time at my house in Spain over the last 15 years and I have to say that the argument you put forward would not worry a Spanish policeman one jot and your English MP would listen and then....do nothing.

The Police officer will normally say......Read my lips......It is SPANISH LAW.

Having said that, I really do wish you the best of luck and if you win, please do us all a favour and post the details on here, that way we can put the "A" frame debate to bed and get back to more pressing matters like Gassing in France.

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[busby]

There's not a lot of difference in cost of buying a trailer. To buying an Aframe and all the kit that goes with it.
Buy a trailer it's not worth the hassle to Aframe.

It will be in Spain,,,BUSBY,,,

Not wishing to split hairs but I have it in writing from our insurers LV that we are entirely and comprehensively covered for the MH the Car and all risks whilst towing a car on an A frame behind our Motor home for all of Europe. I was insistent they wrote it all down specifically for me for the avoidance of doubt..

I am sure that when you show that to a Spanish Policeman he will be very sympathetic to you,,he will then give you a ticket and make you unhook your toad,,,BUSBY.

 

[vwalan]

I have highlighted part of your post above, only to say that I don`t think that you quite understand Spanish police. I have spent lots of time at my house in Spain over the last 15 years and I have to say that the argument you put forward would not worry a Spanish policeman one jot and your English MP would listen and then....do nothing.

The Police officer will normally say......Read my lips......It is SPANISH LAW.

Having said that, I really do wish you the best of luck and if you win, please do us all a favour and post the details on here, that way we can put the "A" frame debate to bed and get back to more pressing matters like Gassing in France.

heres one that caratow have been using for years Link Removed

i dont aframe in spain . have many years ago in the 80,s 90,s .
mind mine was an unbraked intertrade engineering a frame . attached with chains and had big bumper pads .
only for recovery . also used harvey frost tow boys over there again only for recovery.
must admit for pleasure the mini artic is the best way ,or a fifth wheeler. makes much more sense and complies easier.
but it makes interesting discussion .
mind i dont mind filling my own gas bottles .

 

[Billy23]

heres one that caratow have been using for years Link Removed

s .

Yes read the PDF, interesting. My only concern is that maybe things might have changed a tad in 20 years.

So, we cannot go to the gassing in France thread yet it seems.

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[Deleted member 29692]

I find it quite funny that the people who have bought A frames passionately believe, to the point of anger in some cases, that the meaningless pieces of paper given to them by the salesmen, who have lied to them, somehow override the law of a sovereign country.

I wonder how much of it is those people just not wanting to face up to the fact that they've been conned by a salesman?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

The main point being missed here is that when you connect the car by an
A frame to the motor home, then attach the braking cable A frame to car brake pedal, then the lighting system Powered from the Motor Home, MH number plate covering rear car number plate and a hanging sign "Car On Tow". the car is no longer a CAR, it is not self propelled, it is now a 4 WHEELED BRAKED TRAILER..

No.

It simply isn't that no matter what you've been told or what piece of paper you've been given.

It isn't even that under UK law never mind in the countries where your expensive device is explicitly covered by legislation as illegal.


EDIT: Good luck with the Trafficos by the way. Setting out to deliberately argue with them if they stop you is an interesting tactic that I don't believe has been tried before. Let us know how you get on and how long it takes you to get your vehicles back.

 

[vwalan]

No.

It simply isn't that no matter what you've been told or what piece of paper you've been given.

It isn't even that under UK law never mind in the countries where your expensive device is explicitly covered by legislation as illegal.


EDIT: Good luck with the Trafficos by the way. Setting out to deliberately argue with them if they stop you is an interesting tactic that I don't believe has been tried before. Let us know how you get on and how long it takes you to get your vehicles back.

lots are prepared to argue it with the traffico or guardia . usually win .
i know some ex traffic police from uk that use aframes every year .
they have been stopped but never told to unhook or been fined .
hope they dont get into trouble now i have said that .hee hee .
police there or here arent law makers they are just there to see we dont break the law .
if your not prepared to argue and take it the whole way to the eu courts then dont use an a frame in spain .
mind you can be let off towing with a solid bar . so long as you look safe .
have fun .

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[Billy23]

lots are prepared to argue it with the traffico or guardia . usually win .
i know some ex traffic police from uk that use aframes every year .
they have been stopped but never told to unhook or been fined .
hope they dont get into trouble now i have said that .hee hee .
police there or here arent law makers they are just there to see we dont break the law .
if your not prepared to argue and take it the whole way to the eu courts then dont use an a frame in spain .
mind you can be let off towing with a solid bar . so long as you look safe .
have fun .

As you say, the police are there to see we don't break the law. That is correct, it is the law. No matter how many circles you form, you come back to the fact, it is against the law to tow any vehicle in Spain.

Dress it up as many times as you like but it still comes back to the same answer. Rich, then use an A frame, don't want to pay fine and the fight through the VERY slow Spanish courts, then don't use an A frame.

I have used all my popcorn now so I am going to have a beer, Goodnight.

 

[Larrynwin]

I find it quite funny that the people who have bought A frames passionately believe, to the point of anger in some cases, that the meaningless pieces of paper given to them by the salesmen, who have lied to them, somehow override the law of a sovereign country.

I wonder how much of it is those people just not wanting to face up to the fact that they've been conned by a salesman?

Not so about all a frame buyers, we bought our first one 8 years ago and still use our current one in "UK ONLY" being fully aware they are not legal in Europe.
The safest way to tow a car and never conned.

 

[DavidMarsh]

i am a bit confused I have been informed repeatedly that I cannot use an a frame in Spain but I am here at the Lincoln show and have talked to six people who use one and have done for lots of time and never had a problem in Spain one even stopping to ask police for directions can I or can't I use a a frame will I or will not be stopped do I just take a chance does the declaration ofCE conformity make any difference ?

I'm here in Spain right now and A Frames are illegal.

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[Charlie]

I'm here in Spain right now and A Frames are illegal.

We know they are illegal.... The debate was as far as I'm concerned at least is do I / we care given the percentage chance of getting nicked and fined ? It absolutely definitely wouldn't stop me . It may mean we travel elsewhere but undeterred entirely.

Regarding the legality in the UK it is completely legal. There are no laws that say otherwise so by default it must and is legal.

 

[gus-lopez]

I had our VW Up converted by Car A Tow south coast and have the documentation of EEC conformity with regards to continental towing in various languages and would not hesitate to show it to Spanish Police if stopped. The main point being missed here is that when you connect the car by an
A frame to the motor home, then attach the braking cable A frame to car brake pedal, then the lighting system Powered from the Motor Home, MH number plate covering rear car number plate and a hanging sign "Car On Tow". the car is no longer a CAR, it is not self propelled, it is now a 4 WHEELED BRAKED TRAILER..... If I were stopped I would argue the case road side. If I appeared to be losing I would take the officers details, photo graph them, split the car and partner drive it and at destination make a formal complaint to Police and take from there via my MP on return. I am a former mechanic and consider a car strapped on a 2 wheeled trailer behind a Motor home to be sheer madness. and if the Spanish insist on this then they are courting danger . One tyre blow out at say 50 mph the trailer would be liable to flip damaging car and motor home. and who else?? When towing I have my MH ride system set to 2 bar which means we are totally stable when passing articulated lorries even if they are pulling Tilts , Tautliners or Boxes. Or if vehicles are passing us.
Safety first and common sense.... trailers are a danger on the road and pain to store on camp sites too. Where it usually is Caravan and car or Motor Home and car.

You are quite right , you should only ever use a twin axle trailer.
P.S. You shouldn't be passing the said lorries as towing you are restricted to the same speed as them , especially over here , Spain,where you are in fact restricted to less than artics & white vans. PPS Could I be there when you "photograph "them ?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

There are no laws that say otherwise so by default it must and is legal.

Not actually the case in the UK.

Not specifically illegal does not mean legal by default.

Whatever is in question stays in a grey area of "not illegal" until tested by a court or specifically legislated on by the government.

"Not illegal" is not the same thing as "legal"

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