A Frame towing in France

[Simonnsj]

Hi All

Just thought I would post a quickie to say we used our A Frame towing system in France for the first time and I am pleased to say we did not experience any problems.

I was somewhat apprehensive as I know it is somewhat of a grey area in France. We travelled just south of Bergerac mainly using the N roads but also a couple of the toll roads too. To be honest we only saw a couple of Gendarmes whilst towing and they didn't give us a second glance. We spotted one other A Frame which was a UK registered MH but didn't get a chance to speak to the owners to ask about their experiences.

We stayed at a wonderful adult only campsite (5 pitches only) run by a lovely Dutch couple, Cees and Birgit - it is called Moulin Brule, Agnac, Lot-et-Garonne and it is located within a few KM's of Eymet - we would highly recommend this site to anyone wanting a bit of peace and quiet - www.campingmoulinbrule.com for anyone who may be interested.

Thanks.

Simon

 

[pelican]

I know someone who sleeps in those white coverall suits whilst staying in hotels

 

[Bill-H]

I take all the potential hassle out of it and stick my car on an Assems lightweight 2 wheeled trailer when in Europe and until recently when I sold it, used the car as a Toad in the UK. Didn't bother having an A-frame fitted to my latest car.
I prefer towing it on the trailer tbh.

 

[Brains]

Jeeso ...I wasted time reading all of that only to discover it has sod all to do with towing a car with a motorhome. AND the accident would have happened even if the guy wasn't towing a bleedin trailer.


Way to go off point lol.

Not off point at all.

It was a motorhome sized vehicle towing a trailer that had a minor accident (speed was thought to be about 8mph) that unfortunately had major implications.
In a different time and place it could be a motorhome towing a TOAD and it was a bus load of kids on a mountain road.

The Police looked into every possible option, we spent at least two days in court discussing the trailer and the van.
End result, in this case, it was decided that the driver was 100% at fault and no fault with the vehicle or trailer or any other environmental or external issues.

So what do YOU think he got?

 

[ChrisL]

What i took from it was don't take the bus when going for a haircut. Sadly these kinds of accidents happen regardless of towing a trailer or an A frame. Trucks have lost control on hills and killed people, as have buses. The onus is on all of us is to drive responsibly and to keep our vehicles roadworthy regardless of what combination of vehicles we are driving.

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[Northernraider]

Not off point at all.

It was a motorhome sized vehicle towing a trailer that had a minor accident (speed was thought to be about 8mph) that unfortunately had major implications.
In a different time and place it could be a motorhome towing a TOAD and it was a bus load of kids on a mountain road.

The Police looked into every possible option, we spent at least two days in court discussing the trailer and the van.
End result, in this case, it was decided that the driver was 100% at fault and no fault with the vehicle or trailer or any other environmental or external issues.

So what do YOU think he got?

If my granny had wheels she'd be a bike



As I said it's completely unrelated to towing a car on an a frame

You could however possibly relate it to towing a car on a trailer

But even then the trailer wasn't the cause of that accident so really I've no interest in what he got as its a pointless comparison and really as the op hasn't had an accident I dint see the point of posting it on here.

If we all lived worrying about stuff that could happen no one would do anything whatsoever.

 

[Brains]

What i took from it was don't take the bus when going for a haircut. Sadly these kinds of accidents happen regardless of towing a trailer or an A frame. Trucks have lost control on hills and killed people, as have buses. The onus is on all of us is to drive responsibly and to keep our vehicles roadworthy regardless of what combination of vehicles we are driving.

Correct

So imagine it had been a TOAD, in Spain.

If you estimate what the UK driver got in the UK with a legal vehicle.
What do you think the same driver, in the same vehicle would have got if the trailer had been a TOAD ?

 

[ChrisL]

Correct

So imagine it had been a TOAD, in Spain.

If you estimate what the UK driver got in the UK with a legal vehicle.
What do you think the same driver, in the same vehicle would have got if the trailer had been a TOAD ?

I've no idea what he would have got in Spain, and whether he had an A frame or a trailer is irrelevant because he either pressed the wrong pedal or fell asleep or both. Unless the cause of the accident was an A frame incorrectly attached or similar it has nothing to do with it.
To be honest I think you've picked a poor analogy. But if it's any conciliation I wouldn't use an A frame in Europe, because I like a quiet life and don't want the hassle of possibly having to deal with foreign police and a foreign legal system, it's their country and their rules.

 

[Jonno1103]

That is not the point.
The wobble box or trailer is legal.

A TOAD on a A frame is at the very least questionable in most (all?) of the EU and actually listed as illegal in some countries such as Spain.

If we're heading to the point of total scrutiny... a UK trailer isn't particularly legal in France either as they're not subject to the mot styled 'controle technique' and if it's over 750kg requires it's own registration documents. There is no facility in the UK for such things.

Caravans need their own registration documents too. Again, we don't have them... UK caravans are only registered with CRiS... which the EU don't recognise.

The EU doesn't explicitly ban the use of A frames as they're not included in their type approval regs like they are for trailers, tow bars and vehicles neither is there any law in any EU country which states they are illegal either... The laws are about type approval, the 2014 braking regs and recovery stuff.

Crucially it's also about having electronic rather than manual braking fitted to the tow car.

Essentially a modern A frame which allows 50% or more braking of the four wheels which can't be controlled by the motorhome driver & has lights, indicators etc transforms the tow car into a category A2 trailer, it's not for recovery. This is recognised in the UK so - by law, should be recognised in most European countries as the combination is UK registered and invariably the owner is on holiday and not a national or any other type of resident.

There is a huge amount made of this in both the print & digital media when in reality even when or if (as it's not very often) owners are stopped in France, Germany etc once the set up is checked they go on their merry way. Even in Spain, the first time the owner is pulled over they'll invariably receive a fine, they won't however be instructed to uncouple the tow car & on being pulled over a 2nd time will be waived on once the receipt of the fine is produced.

 

[DDJC]

If we're heading to the point of total scrutiny... a UK trailer isn't particularly legal in France either as they're not subject to the mot styled 'controle technique' and if it's over 750kg requires it's own registration documents. There is no facility in the UK for such things.

Caravans need their own registration documents too. Again, we don't have them... UK caravans are only registered with CRiS... which the EU don't recognise.

The EU doesn't explicitly ban the use of A frames as they're not included in their type approval regs like they are for trailers, tow bars and vehicles neither is there any law in any EU country which states they are illegal either... The laws are about type approval, the 2014 braking regs and recovery stuff.

Crucially it's also about having electronic rather than manual braking fitted to the tow car.

Essentially a modern A frame which allows 50% or more braking of the four wheels which can't be controlled by the motorhome driver & has lights, indicators etc transforms the tow car into a category A2 trailer, it's not for recovery. This is recognised in the UK so - by law, should be recognised in most European countries as the combination is UK registered and invariably the owner is on holiday and not a national or any other type of resident.

There is a huge amount made of this in both the print & digital media when in reality even when or if (as it's not very often) owners are stopped in France, Germany etc once the set up is checked they go on their merry way. Even in Spain, the first time the owner is pulled over they'll invariably receive a fine, they won't however be instructed to uncouple the tow car & on being pulled over a 2nd time will be waived on once the receipt of the fine is produced.

I think that you are slightly wrong.

Towing a trailer or caravan is legal in the UK (without a UK equivalent of controle technique), which by virtue of the Vienna agreement means that a British car pulling a trailer is is legal in France (and EU).

However, towing a car on an A Frame is not actually legal in UK. It is a fine legal point, but A Frames are simply neither legal nor illegal. The Dept of Transport has never made a binding ruling on them. This means that, as they are not explicitly legal, they can not be included in the Vienna agreement.

A Frames legality is clear in France. Only breakdown vehicles can tow a car with all four wheels on the tarmac.

This is not up for question. If you use an A Frame in the EU, you are not legal. What then kicks in is whether the Gendarme, Polizei or Carabinieri can be arsed to pull you over. I have seen an A Frame pulled over in France and Italy, but I have also seen them sail past the local rozzers, unmolested.

Its a risk I won't take, so our A Frame was scrapped and we got a trailer.

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[Fdhadi]

I've no idea what he would have got in Spain, and whether he had an A frame or a trailer is irrelevant because he either pressed the wrong pedal or fell asleep or both. Unless the cause of the accident was an A frame incorrectly attached or similar it has nothing to do with it.
To be honest I think you've picked a poor analogy. But if it's any conciliation I wouldn't use an A frame in Europe, because I like a quiet life and don't want the hassle of possibly having to deal with foreign police and a foreign legal system, it's their country and their rules.

I’m with you on this one Chris but mainly because the majority of Europe is so Motorhome friendly I don’t feel the need to take the Toad, unlike the UK

 

[Fdhadi]

Tell you what, I'll let you make up your own mind.
Here is a press report of a broadly similar case here I was involved with the court.

The "truck" was a Ford Transit, 3.8t/6.7m flatbed van (same size/weight as many motorhomes) was towing a trailer, which due to the weight contributed to the accident.
However the Police checked the trailer to the enth degree and it was found to be completely legal.

He admitted his guilt, I have removed the sentence from the text.
What do YOU think he got ?

• A fine (If so, how much?)
• A driving ban (if so, for how long?)
• A few months inside (if so, for how long?)
• A few years inside (if so, for how long?)

And how much more would he have been punished if the trailer was found to be illegal ?


Death of Logan Finch, 14, in Blackheath crash
22nd February

Frederick Mansfield drove his truck into a bus stop, killing Logan Finch

A truck driver has been jailed after he crashed into a bus stop in Blackheath, killing a 14-year-old boy.

Logan Finch was waiting for the 321 bus on Eltham Road with his aunt and cousins on December 21, 2021, when a truck driven by 43-year-old Frederick Mansfield veered onto the pavement.

Logan was tragically pronounced dead at the scene after he was pinned between the truck and the bus stop, while his aunt Rachel Poole was left with serious injuries.

Mansfield, who was not injured in the crash, appeared at Woolwich Crown Court today (February 22) where he was
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx for causing death by dangerous driving.

Natalie Roach, Logan’s mum, told the court: “Logan was a bright, energetic, playful and considerate young man, loving life and his family.

“There was so much love from people who knew Logan. He was everyone’s favourite person. Not a bad word could be said about Logan.”

During a trial, Mansfield had blamed a previously undiagnosed sleep condition for Logan’s death, as he claimed he had drifted off seconds before the crash.

But Natalie criticised Mansfield for pleading not guilty to causing Logan’s death and forcing them to endure an agonising trial.

“As a parent, we teach our children right and wrong. To be honest, Frederick Mansfield hasn’t done what is right,” she said.

‘On his way to get a haircut’

Logan was on his way to have a haircut in Eltham on the day of the crash. He was with his aunt, two of his cousins and a friend.

At 3.33pm the group were waiting at the bus stop near the junction with Kidbrooke Park Road when the tragedy took place.

Describing the incident, prosecutor Rupert Kent said: “Without any warning at all the defendant’s vehicle moved straight at this group. It came at them at some speed.

“It initially collided with a lamp post. It then collided with the bus stop causing some damage to it and in the process it hit Logan, it hit Rachel and it hit Rachel’s nine-year-old son.”

When the vehicle came to a rest it had pinned Logan against the bus stop, causing fatal injuries.

He was pronounced dead at the scene at 4.02pm.

Ms Poole was thrown to the ground and sustained serious injuries to her legs and chest. Her nine-year-old son escaped without serious injury.

Logan Finch was waiting at a bus stop on Eltham Road when he was killed by dangerous driving

Ten minutes after the crash had taken place, Mansfield was spoken to by police.

Bodyworn footage showed Mansfield telling an officer “I just put my foot on the wrong pedal” and “that was my fault mate”.

But when he was spoken to by another officer 45 minutes later Mansfield said: “I’m not going to lie, it’s a bit blurry. I must have either blacked out or fallen asleep.

“I was going up towards the bus stop and that boy was in front of us and just...”

He told officers he had never blacked out before.

Prosecutor Mr Kent described Mansfield's explanations as a “developing narrative”.

When he was formally interviewed the following day he said he couldn’t remember how it happened but he thought he might have blacked out and pressed the wrong pedal.

When Mansfield was interviewed again five months later he issued a prepared statement telling police that the crash was caused by his previously undiagnosed sleep apnoea.

Mansfield denied causing death and serious injury by dangerous driving, but on January 16 this year a jury found him guilty.

‘Logan will never be forgotten’

Reading a victim impact statement at Mansfield’s sentencing hearing, Logan's mum Natalie said her son was a bright and playful teenager.

She said: "To have my son taken by someone else’s actions hurts me everyday.

“He had a beautiful sister who was two years old when he died. She talks about him all the time.

“Logan will never be forgotten”.

She added: “I don’t understand how Frederick Mansfield pleaded not guilty to my son’s death. I pray and hope he gets the sentence he deserves.”

Logan’s dad, David Finch, described the pain he felt when he was told that his son had passed away.

“I remember that call like it was yesterday, my heart sunk. Hearing those words, we’re sorry but your son is dead, I will never forget,” he said.

“We live close to the area where it happened, we’re reminded of it and knowing that my son took his last breath without me there.”

David continued: “It wasn’t like he was running across the road to catch a bus, he was waiting at a place where he should have been safe. It makes it more difficult to understand why.

“We will never see him graduate and be that proud family. We will never see him get married and have a happy family. We never got to say goodbye. We never got a chance to hold his hand and say everything is okay.”

Rachel Poole, Logan’s aunt, has been left needing to use a wheelchair since the accident.

She told the court: “I am in my early 40s but I feel like I am in my 80s. My children have suffered because I have not been able to be the mother I used to be.”

Addressing Mansfield, Ms Poole said: “The driver of the lorry pleaded not guilty. It was a cowardly act. He should have owned up to what he’s done.

“Instead, we’ve had to relive the trauma over and over again for the past two years, then we’ve had to sit in the trial and hear it again.”

Seven years

Nicholas Cotter, representing Mansfield in court, said: “When he set out that day to go home, he wasn’t planning to not pay full attention or to fall asleep. He was not planning on harming anyone.”

He told the court that the guilt will stay with his client for the rest of his life.

Mansfield, from Hythe, is a father of two and is the operations director of an events company.

On the day of the crash he had been driving back to Kent from Central London.

Sentencing Mansfield, Judge Jonathan Mann KC said: “There’s no question that you didn’t set out to do anything bad to anybody that day.”

But he said that people who get behind the wheel of such large vehicles must drive responsibly.

“Those that do so bare a higher responsibility to be sensitive to the world around them as they drive. To be sensitive to the state of their vehicle and their own state,” he said.

“Because a failure to notice the world around them, or a failure to notice feeling tired, can have huge consequences.”

Addressing the cause of the crash, Judge Mann said: “It’s not clear what caused you to be distracted or not to be cognisant of what was going on – it was either distraction, or more likely, that you drifted off to sleep.”

He added: “I think the truth was said yourself 11 minutes after the accident, when you told a police officer ‘It’s my fault, I put my foot on the wrong pedal.”

Was he wearing a seatbelt do you know.

 

[Jonno1103]

I think that you are slightly wrong.

Towing a trailer or caravan is legal in the UK (without a UK equivalent of controle technique), which by virtue of the Vienna agreement means that a British car pulling a trailer is is legal in France (and EU).

However, towing a car on an A Frame is not actually legal in UK. It is a fine legal point, but A Frames are simply neither legal nor illegal. The Dept of Transport has never made a binding ruling on them. This means that, as they are not explicitly legal, they can not be included in the Vienna agreement.

A Frames legality is clear in France. Only breakdown vehicles can tow a car with all four wheels on the tarmac.

This is not up for question. If you use an A Frame in the EU, you are not legal. What then kicks in is whether the Gendarme, Polizei or Carabinieri can be arsed to pull you over. I have seen an A Frame pulled over in France and Italy, but I have also seen them sail past the local rozzers, unmolested.

Its a risk I won't take, so our A Frame was scrapped and we got a trailer.

As said, an electronically controlled A Frame in the UK means the frame & tow car are classed as a Cat A2 trailer... it's braked, it has directional indicators, illuminated reg plate, rear lights, brake lights & fog light - as a singularity the A Frame no longer exists as it's homologated into the car powered by the tractor vehicle battery & ECU. They use 13 pins rather than 7.

You then need to look at the regs determining wheelbase.

A Frames specifically designed for recovery are illegal as breakdown services in Europe are licenced and paid for by the respective regions or private toll road owners - the don't want 3rd parties doing the same job but as discussed modern A frames for leisure use aren't designed or built for this purpose.

In Germany the police will demand the tow car is driven only IF the brakes are mechanically controlled, they will allow it to be used if they are controlled electronically. This is the big difference and why many owners using aging A frames are caught out whilst those with modern designs aren't.

It's all in the wording. A bit like when drivers are done for 'exceeding the limits of the road conditions' rather than speeding... the latter can be argued, the former can't.

 

[Brains]

Was he wearing a seatbelt do you know.

Yes he was, but not classed as a 'material fact' (Relevant) with the accident.

 

[DDJC]

As said, an electronically controlled A Frame in the UK means the frame & tow car are classed as a Cat A2 trailer... it's braked, it has directional indicators, illuminated reg plate, rear lights, brake lights & fog light - as a singularity the A Frame no longer exists as it's homologated into the car powered by the tractor vehicle battery & ECU. They use 13 pins rather than 7.

You then need to look at the regs determining wheelbase.

A Frames specifically designed for recovery are illegal as breakdown services in Europe are licenced and paid for by the respective regions or private toll road owners - the don't want 3rd parties doing the same job but as discussed modern A frames for leisure use aren't designed or built for this purpose.

In Germany the police will demand the tow car is driven only IF the brakes are mechanically controlled, they will allow it to be used if they are controlled electronically. This is the big difference and why many owners using aging A frames are caught out whilst those with modern designs aren't.

It's all in the wording. A bit like when drivers are done for 'exceeding the limits of the road conditions' rather than speeding... the latter can be argued, the former can't.

OK, so you are arguing from the view that you say that the type of braking and lighting will effect whether or not the Deutsch rozzers would give you a ticket. That is something that I wouldn't want to rely on, as my German isn't up to it. And even if you were fluent enough to explain, there is nothing to stop the cop giving you a ticket anyway. Do you fancy arguing the toss on the autobahn? I certainly don't.

Re the above, I don't know if you are right, but I do know that in France, Italy & Spain, you are wrong. You cannot use an A Frame according to local law, AND you cannot plead the Vienna convention on using an A Frame as it is not legal in the UK. It really isn't. It falls into a category of neither legal nor illegal because no ruling has ever been made, that is at a level that would satisfy the Vienna convention.

The only EU nation I know where you can use one is Ireland, and that is because they have the same illegal/legal conundrum as the UK. I have read somewhere that the Belgians doesn't like them, but the Dutch aren't bothered overly.

Far easier to get a trailer and then you won't get stopped. But, live and let live. If you want to take the chance, go for it.

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[RustyRuss]

Just returning on the Dieppe-Newhaven ferry from France in our MoHo with Toyota Aygo Toad on the back. No issues with gendarmes as usual, this is our fifth trip to France with various versions of Aygo Toads, never been a problem.

Cheers!

Russ

 

[TCG]

Correct

So imagine it had been a TOAD, in Spain.

If you estimate what the UK driver got in the UK with a legal vehicle.
What do you think the same driver, in the same vehicle would have got if the trailer had been a TOAD ?

“So imagine” it wasn’t so Who cares.. look at my original post #9 I said I have been A framing twice a year for 10 year in FRANCE did not mention either Germany or Spain which I would not a frame as they are too strict

 

[offagen]

I find it strange, if not comical that, when someone (the OP) says he has just travelled down to the Dordogne region with a toad on an a-frame without any problems, there's a procession of contributors telling him he can't do it. He's just done it!! We all make our choices about what we do or don't do, and don't need opinionated others chiding us.

We travelled much in France with a toad with no problems at all. However, when Brexit arrived and the EU started acting like a woman scorned, we thought it best to keep a low profile and leave the toad at home. We've since made many trips of 4-6 weeks in France and, on our travels, have regularly seen A-frames in use: British, French and Dutch. We've chatted to some, none of whom had had any problems with French authorities. One had been stopped in Germany but, after demonstrating the braking and lighting systems to the police officers, we're waved on without issue.

We did see a toad behind an AutoTrail in Spain last year. Coincidentally they were on our outbound ferry and, two months later, also on our return ferry. We followed them to Zaragoza and they were ignored by authorities en-route.

The member with the doomsday scenario should take a good look at a professionally installed A-frame system to see that the chances of a car breaking away and careering off are just about nil. I will say, though, that we have TyrePal sensors on the toad's wheels so pressures and temperatures can be monitored in the MH cab and we are alerted to any potential issues (that could damage the car).

On a recent journey to Kent from Southport we followed our friends and watched their toad. It was totally stable for the whole journey. Far more stable than most trailers we've followed.

We'll be spending September in France with the toad, despite the doom-mongers.

 

[Brains]

I find it strange, if not comical that, when someone (the OP) says he has just travelled down to the Dordogne region with a toad on an a-frame without any problems, there's a procession of contributors telling him he can't do it. He's just done it!! We all make our choices about what we do or don't do, and don't need opinionated others chiding us.

We travelled much in France with a toad with no problems at all. However, when Brexit arrived and the EU started acting like a woman scorned, we thought it best to keep a low profile and leave the toad at home. We've since made many trips of 4-6 weeks in France and, on our travels, have regularly seen A-frames in use: British, French and Dutch. We've chatted to some, none of whom had had any problems with French authorities. One had been stopped in Germany but, after demonstrating the braking and lighting systems to the police officers, we're waved on without issue.

We did see a toad behind an AutoTrail in Spain last year. Coincidentally they were on our outbound ferry and, two months later, also on our return ferry. We followed them to Zaragoza and they were ignored by authorities en-route.

The member with the doomsday scenario should take a good look at a professionally installed A-frame system to see that the chances of a car breaking away and careering off are just about nil. I will say, though, that we have TyrePal sensors on the toad's wheels so pressures and temperatures can be monitored in the MH cab and we are alerted to any potential issues (that could damage the car).

On a recent journey to Kent from Southport we followed our friends and watched their toad. It was totally stable for the whole journey. Far more stable than most trailers we've followed.

We'll be spending September in France with the toad, despite the doom-mongers.

.... which completely misses the point.

I don't think anyone, including the French/German/Spanish police is suggesting a TOAD is dangerous.
The issue is what the EU and local law says.

If it happens to be YOU that is involved with a very minor accident, that ends up having major repercussions.
Then is a similar situation with a TOAD on the back, you will be serving substantial time in a foreign prison.

See post #28:
Had that accident happened 5m before or after, I doubt the Police would even have been called and as only a few £100 pounds of damage done, there would not even have been an insurance claim.

As an aside, I see no one has yet estimated the punishment given to the case in post #28, where the vehicle and trailer (after a lot of investigation) was shown to be legal.

 

[pappajohn]

While A-frame towing is legal in the UK,

A frame towing is not legal in the UK....nor is it illegal.
There has never been a court precedence either way.
Until there is or an act of parliament is passed it will remain a grey area and tolerated.

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[offagen]

For heaven's sake Brains, give it a rest. Does anyone actually care what you think??

 

[Montezuma]

A frame towing is not legal in the UK....nor is it illegal.
There has never been a court precedence either way.
Until there is or an act of parliament is passed it will remain a grey area and tolerated.

Fairy Nuff.

The statement that I posted was an extract from a magical AI statement, via the good offices of the mighty Google.

So, I reckon we can blame AI for getting it wrong ?

AI is now everywhere, it may eventually take over the government. (That might be a good idea, eh?)

It is difficult to Google anything now without getting "The Word" from AI.

I thought it was meant to be cleverer than us, and know everything, . . . . . . . obviously not ?

 

[Jonno1103]

OK, so you are arguing from the view that you say that the type of braking and lighting will effect whether or not the Deutsch rozzers would give you a ticket. That is something that I wouldn't want to rely on, as my German isn't up to it. And even if you were fluent enough to explain, there is nothing to stop the cop giving you a ticket anyway. Do you fancy arguing the toss on the autobahn? I certainly don't.

Re the above, I don't know if you are right, but I do know that in France, Italy & Spain, you are wrong. You cannot use an A Frame according to local law, AND you cannot plead the Vienna convention on using an A Frame as it is not legal in the UK. It really isn't. It falls into a category of neither legal nor illegal because no ruling has ever been made, that is at a level that would satisfy the Vienna convention.

The only EU nation I know where you can use one is Ireland, and that is because they have the same illegal/legal conundrum as the UK. I have read somewhere that the Belgians doesn't like them, but the Dutch aren't bothered overly.

Far easier to get a trailer and then you won't get stopped. But, live and let live. If you want to take the chance, go for it.

I agree, a trailer is the easier option. Problem is not many go down this route for many reasons... tow cars are used at home and the A frame means no added storage for example.

The main quibble is that it's ONLY an A Frame when it's lying on the floor, once it's connected to the tow car it's classed as a trailer in the UK... it's homologated. Just ask the DfT, it then must conform to the UNECE regs for coupling & the UNECE regs for braking to include it's own brake assistance.

Older brake cable or actuator fitted A frames are illegal, those with electronic & proportionate braking aren't. One of the main reasons why is that on severing, the tow car brakes are applied bringing the vehicle to a halt. In this scenario they are actually safer than trailers & caravans.

Been using a electronically braked A frame for years all across Europe & Scandinavia, we've been pulled 3 times. Twice we were allowed on our way after inspection & once fined in Spain - but we were allowed to stay coupled up.

 

[NorfolkRed]

As a matter of interest and not wanting to pour more petrol on any fires on this subject, if you used an A frame in Europe, and was unfortunate enough to have a traffic accident, does anybody think that the insurance company would use this as a loophole to get out of any possible claim.
Apologies if this has already been answered.

Mark.

 

[eddie]

As a matter of interest and not wanting to pour more petrol on any fires on this subject, if you used an A frame in Europe, and was unfortunate enough to have a traffic accident, does anybody think that the insurance company would use this as a loophole to get out of any possible claim.
Apologies if this has already been answered.

Mark.

Good question!

We insure our RV with Comfort and we have insured our Suzuki Ignis with Comfort and the A frame is a noted and chargeable "change to the vehicle"

When we spoke to Comfort about buying the Ignis and having the A Frame fitted they told us that they insure lots of "A Framed" cars and new exactly what was what.

By paying them to insure the RV and the towed car, and charging a additional small fee for the A Frame, I cannot see how they would try to refuse a claim.

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[NorfolkRed]

Good question!

We insure our RV with Comfort and we have insured our Suzuki Ignis with Comfort and the A frame is a noted and chargeable "change to the vehicle"

When we spoke to Comfort about buying the Ignis and having the A Frame fitted they told us that they insure lots of "A Framed" cars and new exactly what was what.

By paying them to insure the RV and the towed car, and charging a additional small fee for the A Frame, I cannot see how they would try to refuse a claim.

Eddie,

good answer, we also insured through them and went through the protocol of telling them we would be towing a car on a A Frame etc, but assumed probably wrongly this was for using UK roads and not abroad.
Just wondered if a insurance company could possibly use it as a loophole whilst driving with one in Europe where technically it is illegal.

Mark.

 

[David and Sally]

Eddie,

good answer, we also insured through them and went through the protocol of telling them we would be towing a car on a A Frame etc, but assumed probably wrongly this was for using UK roads and not abroad.
Just wondered if a insurance company could possibly use it as a loophole whilst driving with one in Europe where technically it is illegal.

Mark.

You bet they can and would. Any loophole that even a mouse can’t get through.

 

[bobnick]

Insurance compay's, brokers, underwriters will bend over backwards to find any little detail that allows them to reject a claim.
Insurance companys are not your friends.

 

[eddie]

Eddie,

good answer, we also insured through them and went through the protocol of telling them we would be towing a car on a A Frame etc, but assumed probably wrongly this was for using UK roads and not abroad.
Just wondered if a insurance company could possibly use it as a loophole whilst driving with one in Europe where technically it is illegal.

Mark.

Well, given that they have given us European breakdown and recovery on both the RV and the Car, a Green card for both vehicles, and the A frame is a listed and charged for as a "modification" I would happily challenge it

Also, having had a very serious accident in France in 2017 whilst towing a 27' RIB behind a Land Cruiser the only insurance that the authorities wanted to see was the "towing vehicle" as that covers whatever is being towed from a legal point of view, but only third party, additional insurance is sensible to protect the owner from loss

The car and the boat were written off, AVIVA who insured the car settling all the costs, and the boat insurance paid us for financial loss.

 

[NorfolkRed]

Eddie,

Thanks for that. Lets hope the situation never arises.

Mark.

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[BrochMike]

I find it strange, if not comical that, when someone (the OP) says he has just travelled down to the Dordogne region with a toad on an a-frame without any problems, there's a procession of contributors telling him he can't do it. He's just done it!!

I find it strange, if not comical, that 'getting away with it' is considered a defence!

But, your honour, I've stolen loads of stuff before and no-one caught me...

We all make our choices about what we do or don't do, and don't need opinionated others chiding us.

While there may be a few somewhat over-the-top reactions, that's not exactly a novelty on MHF.

And, as far as I can see, most of the 'opinionated others' are simply (and helpfully) clarifying the legal situation.