240v Charging Lithium Batteries

[Zepp]

I’ve being doing alright for power off hook up so far but we have had a couple of days of heavy cloud cover .

I thought lets go onto hookup for a couple of days to give everything a boost and top up , now the fun begins .

The site hook up is six amps we have been on 4 amp hook up and never had this problem before I have 3 x 100a lithium batteries and the original Carthago 240 charger unit

We had the compressor fridge freezer in the garage plugged into the 12v the TV was on 12v nothing else was on 12v apart from the display panel

On the 240v side the charger was running topping up the batteries , the fridge was also on 240 and we had a 240 extension lead so we could plug our phones into the usb slots it has a little blue power light on it

All of a sudden I see the little blue power button going on and off on the extension lead and then I heard something like a relay going on and off from the battery area then the 240power goes off

It had tripped the breaker in the motorhome and the trip on the bollard also it tripped the the main breaker for our group of bollards.

So I put the fridge on gas thinking we were pulling to much power and it tripped again I went and got the owner to reset everything


I’m starting to think the batteries are asking for too much power ( we have the smart BMV Victron battery monitor )it was showing around 12 to 13a on the current and the batteries were showing 100% full

Before I plugged the hook up lead back in I switched the freezer in the garage to 240 that was the only thing running from 240 apart from the charging unit .

We watched quite a bit of TV last night and we charged phones etc and it tripped again and just before it went off I saw the little blue light start flashing again on the extension lead and heard the clicking sound from batteries

I’ve switched the 240 charger off and everything is ok so far , since we had the lithium batteries fitted I have noticed the 240 charger is always running flat out while we are on hooked up not a 100% sure I did not think it did that on the gel batteries

Never had this problem before when we have been on hook up with the new lithium batteries


Do you thing the 240v charging unit is not up to doing the job or it could be on the way out ?

I’ve got a feeling it could be the site electric’s not liking the power i am pulling for the charging unit


I’m still on hook up now the solar panels are charging the batteries the fridge is running ok on 240v also compressor fridge in garage is on 240v .The 240v charger is still switch off I do not want to turn the 240charger back on because its not just my electric it trips out any thoughts


Please don’t tell me it’s the compressor fridge i refuse to drink warm beer lol



Thankyou in advance for any help

 

[Steve and Denise]

Is your van fitted with Cbe charger 1x22amp or 2x 16 amp

 

[Zepp]

Is your van fitted with Cbe charger 1x22amp or 2x 16 amp

To tell you the truth I’ve got no idea but I will have a look

Thankyou

 

[Steve and Denise]

Just had a quick look at the spec of the 22amp unit and at 230v the max draw would be very low ie 320w

 

[Zepp]

This is the charger I’ve took a picture the wind is so strong here today I can’t keep the garage door open

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lenny HB]

If it was 22 amps it would only draw 0.092 amps at 240v plus a bit for efficency losses, and 32 amps would only be 1.6 amps.

All modern chargers are switch mode I'm wondering if it is producing some spikes on the mains which is causing the problems.

Like you say on a lead acid battery once the battery starts to take a charge the current reduces its probably never been designed to run flat out continuously.

Probably worth checking the temperature of the charger and monitoring it.

 

[Raul]

The first thing I can think of tripping is the surge start of the 230v compressor. The charger is way undersized for 300ah Li AND loads at one time. You draw to much 12v than the charger can deliver. The batteries being your biggest load for the charger. The relay may be a undervoltage protection for the charger.

 

[Zepp]

I think you are right Lenny regarding the spikes aI think it is running hot

I’m a bit reluctant to switch it back on as I can’t access the trip switches for the aire and it’s not just my power that’s going off

Lynne has just been using the toaster on 240 we also put the heating on 240 without a problem

I might have to look at changing the charger to a one designed to charge lithium

Thankyou as always

 

[Zepp]

The first thing I can think of tripping is the surge start of the 230v compressor. The charger is way undersized for 300ah Li AND loads at one time. You draw to much 12v than the charger can deliver. The batteries being your biggest load for the charger. The relay may be a undervoltage protection for the charger.

I think I understand what you are saying Raul and I agree I may have to look at changing the charger

Thankyou

 

[andy63]

Hi.. if you have 3 100ah lithium then they will be capable of taking a large current..and will certainly tax your mains charger in the picture above.. its rated at 16 amps and unless your lithium are fully charged that charger will be running flat out..lithium take a high current right up to nearly the end of their charge cycle and then very quickly reduce the charge
On the trips side of things ..is it the overload breaker that is coming out or the earth leakage trip..
Andy

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[andy63]

I might have to look at changing the charger to a one designed to charge lithium

Just remember that not all chargers are designed to run as a power pack and supply loads as well as charge the batteries..
I have done just as you suggest and installed a dedicated lithium charger...but its not designed to be running loads constantly..I switch it on manually when I'm hooked up and I'm not running loads on the 12v system..
The fitted mains charger I disconnected from the board and just connected it to charge the start battery rather than remove it..
So basically I'm off grid all the time even on hook up until I choose to switch on a mains charger..
Not really had enough use out of the van to know how it will go in the long term
But after a couple months like that with just solar and battery to battery use the mains charger ran for a couple hours at about 20 amps before shutting down ..which indicated the batteries were full again..
Andy

 

[Zepp]

Hi.. if you have 3 100ah lithium then they will be capable of taking a large current..and will certainly tax your mains charger in the picture above.. its rated at 16 amps and unless your lithium are fully charged that charger will be running flat out..lithium take a high current right up to nearly the end of their charge cycle and then very quickly reduce the charge
On the trips side of things ..is it the overload breaker that is coming out or the earth leakage trip..
Andy

HiI Andy
I agree the charger has been working flat out since we changed to lithium batteries

it’s the top yellow switch that trips and I get a couple of mins warning if I see the power going on on off

Since I’ve turned the charger off everything is running ok

Thank you

 

[bigtwin]

Have you ruled out a problem with the extension lead?

Ian

 

[Zepp]

Just remember that not all chargers are designed to run as a power pack and supply loads as well as charge the batteries..
I have done just as you suggest and installed a dedicated lithium charger...but its not designed to be running loads constantly..I switch it on manually when I'm hooked up and I'm not running loads on the 12v system..
The fitted mains charger I disconnected from the board and just connected it to charge the start battery rather than remove it..
So basically I'm off grid all the time even on hook up until I choose to switch on a mains charger..
Not really had enough use out of the van to know how it will go in the long term
But after a couple months like that with just solar and battery to battery use the mains charger ran for a couple hours at about 20 amps before shutting down ..which indicated the batteries were full again..
Andy

I am also new to lithium batteries and that’s some good advice it makes sense what you are saying

Everywhere we have been since getting the lithium batteries fitted the electric was part of the price so we always plugged in to save on gas etc

Thinking about it the batteries were always full due too the B2B charger when we got to a site /aire and we never had any problems

When we got here the electric was extra so we never took it we have been off hookup for 2 weeks and a 10 mile trip for gas last week



Looks like I will have to get a new charger and think how I use it


Thankyou

 

[Zepp]

Have you ruled out a problem with the extension lead?

Ian

It was not plugged in at one point

But Thankyou anything to do with motorhomes is a mystery lol

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Raul]

As it’s been running flat out, it may developed a intermittent fault or when full throttle. Definitely I would try to beef up the charging.
By the way, you can have 12v while charging no problem as long as batteries have some charge and your loads don’t deplete that. The charger will top up continuously replacing the use. All depends on the how big the buffer is, ie battery reserve.

 

[Lenny HB]

I think your 16 amp charger would struggle with a single 100 a/h Lithium let alone 3.
Votronic and Victron both do a range of high power chargers that are suitable. Votronic have a 60 amp one around £400.

 

[Zepp]

As it’s been running flat out, it may developed a intermittent fault or when full throttle. Definitely I would try to beef up the charging.
By the way, you can have 12v while charging no problem as long as batteries have some charge and your loads don’t deplete that. The charger will top up continuously replacing the use. All depends on the how big the buffer is, ie battery reserve.

The victron battery monitor was showing tha batteries were at 100% full but it was also showing they were pulling in power when it tripped ....we had nothing on 12v at the time

I need to get a new 240 charger can anyone recommend a one

Joking aside do you think it would be ok if I told Lynne I need another 3 batteries for the new charger to work lol

Thankyou again

 

[63720]

Why not run your motor to charge up the batteries, then try it on mains after?

 

[Zepp]

I think your 16 amp charger would struggle with a single 100 a/h Lithium let alone 3.
Votronic and Victron both do a range of high power chargers that are suiable Votronic have a 60 amp one around £400.

Thankyou Lenny I’ve just asked that question regards what charger

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Zepp]

Why not run your motor to charge up the batteries, then try it on mainssomewher

I’m not to keen on running the engine when I’m not driving

But Thankyou it’s worth considering

 

[Lenny HB]

Thankyou Lenny I’ve just asked that question regards what charger

This one looks good and I think they do a 5% for Fun & the clubs.

Votronic 3125 Charger Pb 1250 SMT 3B

<h3><font><font>Product features</font></font></h3> <ul> <li><font><font>Charging program number adjustable: Gel, AGM, Acid, LiFePO4* (except ...

www.roadpro.co.uk

 

[andy63]

it’s the top yellow switch that trips and I get a couple of mins warning if I see the power going on on off

I'm afraid I'm not sure what I'm looking at on that picture of your consumer unit..
It looks like you have 3 circuts each with its own earth trip..maybe someone can confirm this..if its the breaker with the little button above it that's tripping then its likely an earth fault..and sounds like it might be your charger..
It's just if it's an earth trip it indicates a probable fault with your equipment as opposed to an overload..
Switching off the charger you have will save you possibly 1.5 amps max at your 230v..i can't remember the wattage of that unit..
but it may well have been overheated at some point by what yousay and have a fault.. the warning you are getting I can't explain.
Whatever charger you fit will likely run at full load if your batteries are down at all..
Good luck with whatever you do
Andy

 

[63720]

I’m not to keen on running the engine when I’m not driving

But Thankyou it’s worth considering

However you use it the site is limiting you to 6 amps and it would appear the charger is exceeded that. You need to reduce your load somehow, can you disconnect 2 batteries leaving one to charge and then alternate them.

 

[Lenny HB]

However you use it the site is limiting you to 6 amps and it would appear the charger is exceeded that. You need to reduce your load somehow, can you disconnect 2 batteries leaving one to charge and then alternate them.

No way the charger can get anywhere near that, it will be drawing less than 1 amp.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Zepp]

This one looks good and I think they do a 5% for Fun & the clubs.

Votronic 3125 Charger Pb 1250 SMT 3B

<h3><font><font>Product features</font></font></h3> <ul> <li><font><font>Charging program number adjustable: Gel, AGM, Acid, LiFePO4* (except ...

www.roadpro.co.uk

Thankyou Lenny it looks a nice bit of kit

 

[autorouter]

A charger is designed to run 'flat out' for several hours in the bulk stage of charging. It's the 'constant current' stage, and if it's a good quality one like Victron or CTEK it will run in this mode more or less indefinitely if necessary. There is no way that a 320W charger will trip a B13 circuit breaker as a normal part of its operation, so unless there is an intermittent short circuit, that's not the problem.

The top yellow 'switch' is an RCBO, which protects against overcurrent (B13) and earth leakage (003-A, = 30mA). I think it's an earth leakage fault somewhere. There's lots of possibilities, including damp/water leakage into the cables, mouse nibbles, capacitor leakage inside the charger for a start. Can you confirm that the yellow switch switches the charger?

 

[Zepp]

I'm afraid I'm not sure what I'm looking at on that picture of your consumer unit..
It looks like you have 3 circuts each with its own earth trip..maybe someone can confirm this..if its the breaker with the little button above it that's tripping then its likely an earth fault..and sounds like it might be your charger..
It's just if it's an earth trip it indicates a probable fault with your equipment as opposed to an overload..
Switching off the charger you have will save you possibly 1.5 amps max at your 230v..i can't remember the wattage of that unit..
but it may well have been overheated at some point by what yousay and have a fault.. the warning you are getting I can't explain.
Whatever charger you fit will likely run at full load if your batteries are down at all..
Good luck with whatever you do
Andy

Thankyou as always Andy I will have a look at it when this wind drops

I am thinking the same as you guys the charger is not up to doing the job and is over heating and causing a spike

Thankyou again

 

[Zepp]

A charger is designed to run 'flat out' for several hours in the bulk stage of charging. It's the 'constant current' stage, and if it's a good quality one like Victron or CTEK it will run in this mode more or less indefinitely if necessary. There is no way that a 320W charger will trip a B13 circuit breaker as a normal part of its operation, so unless there is an intermittent short circuit, that's not the problem.

The top yellow 'switch' is an RCBO, which protects against overcurrent (B13) and earth leakage (003-A, = 30mA). I think it's an earth leakage fault somewhere. There's lots of possibilities, including damp/water leakage into the cables, mouse nibbles, capacitor leakage inside the charger for a start. Can you confirm that the yellow switch switches the charger?

Hi
Thankyou for the reply I’m just going through the books now to confirm it’s the switch for the charger but they don’t make it easy

 

[Zepp]

A charger is designed to run 'flat out' for several hours in the bulk stage of charging. It's the 'constant current' stage, and if it's a good quality one like Victron or CTEK it will run in this mode more or less indefinitely if necessary. There is no way that a 320W charger will trip a B13 circuit breaker as a normal part of its operation, so unless there is an intermittent short circuit, that's not the problem.

The top yellow 'switch' is an RCBO, which protects against overcurrent (B13) and earth leakage (003-A, = 30mA). I think it's an earth leakage fault somewhere. There's lots of possibilities, including damp/water leakage into the cables, mouse nibbles, capacitor leakage inside the charger for a start. Can you confirm that the yellow switch switches the charger?

Hi
Thankyou for the reply I’m just going through the books now to confirm it’s the switch for the charger but they don’t make it eas

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}