2030 no new diesel vans. What's your plan? (2 Viewers)

[Gromett]

But a one hour stop every 200 miles is not such an inconvenience

Not sure where this hour stop after 200 miles comes from. Most vans you top up to 80% or so and this takes 20-30 minutes not an hour.

You don't fill up to 100% because it actually takes you longer for the journey. Once the battery is at 80% ish the charge rate slows right down.

 

[Glas Robin]

Again, hardly progress. I can do 500 miles on a tank and then refill for another 500 miles in about five minutes.

Depends on how you define progress. No pollution and quieter, smooth, more reliable drive.

I have NEVER done 500 miles in one stint without stopping for half an hour for food/drink/toilet break.

3 hours is about right for a stop for most sensible drivers 4 at the outside on a longer leg of a journey.

Totally agree - except there is only no pollution if the charding source is from a renewable energy. Thankfully this is increasingly the case.

My question is what we are going to cook with in the van when we have to stop burning gas as also environmentally undesirable as we should be leaving the carbon sunk underground? I'm not sure an electric BBQ is going to be much fun...

 

[tonyidle]

Again, hardly progress. I can do 500 miles on a tank and then refill for another 500 miles in about five minutes.

It isn't, at this stage, going to compete with a tank of fuel or the speed with which it can be re-filled. Even when EVs have reached their full potential there is no reason to assume that driving, and long journeys, will be as they are now. Or that they should be. I've done the long trips on two and four wheels but I wouldn't suggest that driving for over 4 hours at a stretch is safe or desirable.

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[62272]

In answer to the thread; wait and see what happens… a lot can happen in 9 years!

 

[deleted79651]

In answer to the thread; wait and see what happens… a lot can happen in 9 years!

And even more can be deferred/cancelled ... In an even shorter period, too ... Few political donations ahead of the next GE, scare story about job losses/damage to the economy/moving the pollution upstream and old gits moaning how they're being priced out of their only enjoyment that they fought 2 World Wars to defend ...

Steve

 

[gus-lopez]

But be assured that we will have adffordable electric tractors,

There aren't any 'affordable' tractors now. To start farming you need to be a multi millionaire

3 hours is about right for a stop for most sensible drivers 4 at the outside on a longer leg of a journey.

so why do hgv's have a minimum driving time of 4,5hours?

but I wouldn't suggest that driving for over 4 hours at a stretch is safe or desirable.

As above if on a journey you can't stop after 3hours.
You cannot drive for less than the 4,5hours as then you would not get your maximum daily driving hours into the alloted daily time period.

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[scally]

I'll be 93 so probably wont care.
Bit selfish that thought

 

[Gromett]

so why do hgv's have a minimum driving time of 4,5hours?

It is 45 minute break after no more than 4.5 hours. They are not told they HAVE to drive for 4.5Hours. This is an upper limit and it seems about right to me.

 

[Michael Rennison]

Hydrogen conversion maybe?

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[joe and sue]

Technology changes.

1920s.

View attachment 523924

1930s
View attachment 523928

There's perhaps 10 years development between those two tractors. Add another 10 years and you're into Grey Fergies and a proper 3 point hitch which fundamentally revolutionised agriculture and feeding the world.

We are at the early stages of usable EVs just now. But be assured that we will have adffordable electric tractors, HGVs and Mohos in the near future. There are already electric trucks and tractors. They will just get bigger and more powerful and more usable.

History tells us that there is only one-way traffic in technological development (better, faster, smaller, cheaper) - and in the people saying today "it'll never happen, it'll never work, it'll never be affordable" etc, I hear echoes of people 100 years ago complaining they needed to refuel their ICE multiple times a day, when their horse needed feeding once.

The major common item with these tractors is the "Internal Combustion Engine"

 

[Glas Robin]

The major common item with these tractors is the "Internal Combustion Engine"

Yes - but the other common theme is the development of the new/replacement technology. EVs today are unrecognisable from what was available 10 years ago. And the EVs of 2031 will also be massively improved.

ICEs using carbon-intensive fuels are on the way out, and rightly so.

 

[glenn2926]

Depends on how you define progress. No pollution and quieter, smooth, more reliable drive.

I have NEVER done 500 miles in one stint without stopping for half an hour for food/drink/toilet break.

3 hours is about right for a stop for most sensible drivers 4 at the outside on a longer leg of a journey.

I do think you are being very unfair to all truck drivers by saying driving for more than three hours isn’t sensible. They, we drive for 4.5 hours then have to stop for 45 mins.
How you, just a bloke on a motorhome forum can think the experts in road transport that came up with these figures is wrong I don’t know.
The 4.5 hours quoted it EU hours. Many trucks are being driven on U.K. domestic hours which are longer. Again you probably think you know better.
Just because you don’t have the capability to drive further doesn’t mean others can’t do it.
Really it’s not just how long YOU think people should drive it’s the fact that with current vehicles it’s easily doable. With battery vehicles it’s not doable. Now to me progress means better than whatever came before. Your love for battery cars has clearly clouded your thoughts on progress. Battery cars are just not as good or as flexible as real cars and for the foreseeable future do not look being progression from where cars are now. Can’t go as far and take longer to refuel, that is not progress.

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[glenn2926]

Not sure where this hour stop after 200 miles comes from. Most vans you top up to 80% or so and this takes 20-30 minutes not an hour.

You don't fill up to 100% because it actually takes you longer for the journey. Once the battery is at 80% ish the charge rate slows right down.

Why would anyone only fill their fuel tank to 80%. That just ridiculous.

 

[Odd job]

As yet there are no plans for hgv's to be electric as the technology does not exist, so diesel will be with us until 2040, by then the electric tech will be much better than anything around now. I hope

 

[Gromett]

I do think you are being very unfair to all truck drivers by saying driving for more than three hours isn’t sensible. They, we drive for 4.5 hours then have to stop for 45 mins.
How you, just a bloke on a motorhome forum can think the experts in road transport that came up with these figures is wrong I don’t know.
The 4.5 hours quoted it EU hours. Many trucks are being driven on U.K. domestic hours which are longer. Again you probably think you know better.
Just because you don’t have the capability to drive further doesn’t mean others can’t do it.
Really it’s not just how long YOU think people should drive it’s the fact that with current vehicles it’s easily doable. With battery vehicles it’s not doable. Now to me progress means better than whatever came before. Your love for battery cars has clearly clouded your thoughts on progress. Battery cars are just not as good or as flexible as real cars and for the foreseeable future do not look being progression from where cars are now. Can’t go as far and take longer to refuel, that is not progress.

It is my opinion. I am not saying truck drivers shouldn't drive for 4.5 hours. They are professional drivers and do it regularly and are accustomed to it. Us mere mortals are not generally accustomed to such long hours. I say 3 hours is about right for most sensible drivers, not that all drivers should only do 3 hours.
Driving 20 minutes or 1 hour each day on a normal basis does not prepare you to do 4.5 hours across the continent where you are driving on the opposite side of the road and with many unusual things to deal with. Doing 3 hours for most legs of the journey and 4 hours max seems sensible to me. People who want to be able to do 500 miles in one sprint, spend 5 minutes filling up and doing another 500 miles are not only crazy but they are dangerous.

PS: UK domestic hours are only applied in limited circumstance and certainly not to long distance trucking, we still have to abide by EU driving regulation as they have been transferred into UK law and have not yet been rescinded.

PPS: I do have my CPC and drivers card (tacho). Did both my C1 test and C training. My CPC training involved a unit on drivers hours and other regulations. I don't profess to be an expert on truck driving however as I am patently not. But that does not mean I can't have an opinion.

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[Gromett]

As yet there are no plans for hgv's to be electric as the technology does not exist, so diesel will be with us until 2040, by then the electric tech will be much better than anything around now. I hope

There are plans and in fact some real trucks already running on batteries. Tesla's Semi truck 600 mile range class 8 is going into limited production later this year...
Others are doing short and medium range HGV's.

It will probably happen a lot quicker than people think.

 

[Ivory55]

It is 45 minute break after no more than 4.5 hours. They are not told they HAVE to drive for 4.5Hours. This is an upper limit and it seems about right to me.

45 min after 4.5 driving time, but after 6hrs WTD.

 

[Gromett]

45 min after 4.5 driving time, but after 6hrs WTD.

WTD directive is for weekly working hours. Nothing to do with drivers hours.

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[SpeedyDux]

These are the spec of the Arrival electric van. https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2021/arrival-electric-van/
Electric vans can be driven on a standard car licence up to 4.25 tons, which is why using an ali chassis and composite panels on the short range it has a payload of nearly 2 tons.

The interesting bit from the specs is the weight of the battery, to go from 67kwh to 139kwh increases the kerb weight by 360kg so roughly speaking the 67kwh battery weighs 350kg for roughly a 100 mile range. To increase the range to what a petrol van could do (500miles) would mean the batteries would weigh somewhere around 1750kg.

Battery size	67kWh	89kWh	111kWh	139kWh
Driving range	112 miles	149 miles	180 miles	211 miles
Gross vehicle weight	4,250kg
Kerb weight	2,275kg	2,395kg	2,515kg	2,635kg
Max payload	1,975kg	1,855kg	1,735kg	1,615kg

It looks like the Green lobby doesn't like the idea of electric vans and wants deliveries to be made by bike instead.

If they get their way it's back to tenting, all camping gear to be transported via electric cargo bike.

Cargo bikes deliver faster and cleaner than vans, study finds

Home deliveries are soaring and cargo bikes cut congestion and pollution in cities, researchers say

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gromett]

It looks like the Green lobby doesn't like the idea of electric vans and wants deliveries to be made by bike instead.

If they get their way it's back to tenting, all camping gear to be transported via electric cargo bike.

Cargo bikes deliver faster and cleaner than vans, study finds

Home deliveries are soaring and cargo bikes cut congestion and pollution in cities, researchers say

www.theguardian.com

It is for city centre deliveries and it was the results of a study. It does actually make sense. Rather than a van going round in central london taking up huge parking spots or double parking to make 6 deliveries an hour on average.
Have a smaller cargo bike and deliver 10 per hour on average.

This is not the green lobby wanting everyone to use cargo bikes for everything. It is a study to see if there were any benefits to cargo bikes in city centres only.

UPS and others are already using them in the US.

 

[SpeedyDux]

It is for city centre deliveries and it was the results of a study. It does actually make sense. Rather than a van going round in central london taking up huge parking spots or double parking to make 6 deliveries an hour on average.
Have a smaller cargo bike and deliver 10 per hour on average.

This is not the green lobby wanting everyone to use cargo bikes for everything. It is a study to see if there were any benefits to cargo bikes in city centres only.

UPS and others are already using them in the US.

View attachment 524105

At least the UPS version could be converted into a micro camper.

PS The post to which you responded was intended as a teeny weeny wind-up.

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[Ivory55]

WTD directive is for weekly working hours. Nothing to do with drivers hours.

So you’re saying that wtd is nothing to do with a drivers working day ?

 

[Gromett]

So you’re saying that wtd is nothing to do with a drivers working day ?

No I am saying WTD has nothing to do with the drivers maximum allowed driving hours with respect to the 4.5 hour limit.

Obviously there are interactions with the WTD if the driver has other jobs or duties. But that is not what we are discussing here I didn't think.

I said 3 hours is a reasonable limit for most normal people with 4 hours being what I would personally class an upper limit for safe driving for normal people.
glenn2926 then came back at me about truck drivers being allowed to do 4.5 hours.

I think my point has been pretty clear and we going off into the weeds now.

To be clear a truck driver cannot do more than 4.5 Hours driving in one stint (except in limited circumstances) I don't really care about UK driving limits or WTD as it has no impact on the point i was making about 3-4 hours for a normal person.

 

[Odd job]

No I am saying WTD has nothing to do with the drivers maximum allowed driving hours with respect to the 4.5 hour limit.

Obviously there are interactions with the WTD if the driver has other jobs or duties. But that is not what we are discussing here I didn't think.

I said 3 hours is a reasonable limit for most normal people with 4 hours being what I would personally class an upper limit for safe driving for normal people.
glenn2926 then came back at me about truck drivers being allowed to do 4.5 hours.

I think my point has been pretty clear and we going off into the weeds now.

To be clear a truck driver cannot do more than 4.5 Hours driving in one stint (except in limited circumstances) I don't really care about UK driving limits or WTD as it has no impact on the point i was making about 3-4 hours for a normal person.

I never timed the length of driving stints but I drove from the south of France to Winchester, stopping only for fuel and the ferry, it took me almost a week to get over it, so I would be happy with a 3 to 4 hour limit, as long as the charging time was about 20 minutes.

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[peter991]

In 2030 we will drive electric cars.

 

[Ivory55]

No I am saying WTD has nothing to do with the drivers maximum allowed driving hours with respect to the 4.5 hour limit.

Obviously there are interactions with the WTD if the driver has other jobs or duties. But that is not what we are discussing here I didn't think.

I said 3 hours is a reasonable limit for most normal people with 4 hours being what I would personally class an upper limit for safe driving for normal people.
glenn2926 then came back at me about truck drivers being allowed to do 4.5 hours.

I think my point has been pretty clear and we going off into the weeds now.

To be clear a truck driver cannot do more than 4.5 Hours driving in one stint (except in limited circumstances) I don't really care about UK driving limits or WTD as it has no impact on the point i was making about 3-4 hours for a normal person.

What I mean is a driver can work for 6 hours before he has to stop, if they do 4.15 driving and 1.45 loading or driving a crane , it’s still 6 hrs before a break of any sort.

 

[glenn2926]

It is my opinion. I am not saying truck drivers shouldn't drive for 4.5 hours. They are professional drivers and do it regularly and are accustomed to it. Us mere mortals are not generally accustomed to such long hours. I say 3 hours is about right for most sensible drivers, not that all drivers should only do 3 hours.
Driving 20 minutes or 1 hour each day on a normal basis does not prepare you to do 4.5 hours across the continent where you are driving on the opposite side of the road and with many unusual things to deal with. Doing 3 hours for most legs of the journey and 4 hours max seems sensible to me. People who want to be able to do 500 miles in one sprint, spend 5 minutes filling up and doing another 500 miles are not only crazy but they are dangerous.

PS: UK domestic hours are only applied in limited circumstance and certainly not to long distance trucking, we still have to abide by EU driving regulation as they have been transferred into UK law and have not yet been rescinded.

PPS: I do have my CPC and drivers card (tacho). Did both my C1 test and C training. My CPC training involved a unit on drivers hours and other regulations. I don't profess to be an expert on truck driving however as I am patently not. But that does not mean I can't have an opinion.

We are as you rightly point out, all allowed our opinion. In my opinion if you are not safe to drive after only three hours then I suggest you either take further training or seriously consider whether the time has come for you to surrender your licence.
Or, as I strongly suspect, are you saying this to try to justify the laughably short range and long recharge times of your beloved battery cars?
Battery cars WILL be the future unfortunately but they need to be able to show the buyers that they are progress. That’s better vehicles than we currently have. If battery vehicles are not better they are not progress.

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[tonyidle]

We are as you rightly point out, all allowed our opinion. In my opinion if you are not safe to drive after only three hours then I suggest you either take further training or seriously consider whether the time has come for you to surrender your licence.
Or, as I strongly suspect, are you saying this to try to justify the laughably short range and long recharge times of your beloved battery cars?
Battery cars WILL be the future unfortunately but they need to be able to show the buyers that they are progress. That’s better vehicles than we currently have. If battery vehicles are not better they are not progress.

Moving away from the safety aspect - taking, say, a 30 minute break after 4 or so hours driving would inconvenience almost no-one IMO. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've driven for more than 5 hours in over 50 years on two, three, and four, wheels. It really doesn't matter that driving behaviour may need modification. The immediate benefits of electric cars are a quieter environment and a vast improvement in urban air quality. It is possible to argue about the effect on global warming but not the benefits I've mentioned. We're at the beginning of a change that will challenge those driven by the Industrial Revolution. Electric cars will only kick-off the changes we're facing.

 

[gus-lopez]

It is 45 minute break after no more than 4.5 hours. They are not told they HAVE to drive for 4.5Hours. This is an upper limit and it seems about right to me.

If you didn't drive for 4,5 hours you would not have a job.

about truck drivers being allowed to do 4.5 hours.

Yes but if on a journey you cannot stop early :The company or driver ,if self employed, needs all 9 or 10 driving hours. It would be like taking a 2 hour break after the first stint .You can't get the full driving hours in.

 

[glenn2926]

Moving away from the safety aspect - taking, say, a 30 minute break after 4 or so hours driving would inconvenience almost no-one IMO. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've driven for more than 5 hours in over 50 years on two, three, and four, wheels. It really doesn't matter that driving behaviour may need modification. The immediate benefits of electric cars are a quieter environment and a vast improvement in urban air quality. It is possible to argue about the effect on global warming but not the benefits I've mentioned. We're at the beginning of a change that will challenge those driven by the Industrial Revolution. Electric cars will only kick-off the changes we're facing.

The benefits you mention are only benefits to you. They are absolutely no benefit to me. I like the noise of the various different engine configurations and I very rarely, if ever go into urban ares where the air quality is bad.
The vehicles still ( and quite a few on here do not understand this) are not progress over the vehicles we’re driving today. Mine is over 14 years old and still travels further on a tank of fuel and refuels faster than a battery car that would cost me at least ten times the money. If you honestly think that’s progress then we see progress differently.

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