2017 Rapido 10000 dfh on a Fiat Engine,Intermittently Won't Start after stopping (1 Viewer)

[Steve and Denise]

What dealer was that @zac I should get a spare ordered as my wife nearly always locks me out.

 

[zac]

What dealer was that @zac I should get a spare ordered as my wife nearly always locks me out.

Brownhills - Newark

 

[zac]

Well as predicted the issue happened again Sunday whilst coming back from the new Forest, after driving for a couple of hours we stopped at a fuel station, filled up went back in to start and nothing/nada/ziltch. What a royal pain in the a**, this time however i did a bit more troubleshooting, turned on the control panel and looked at the voltage of both batteries (hab/vehicle), hab showing 12.8v however the vehicle was showing 12.4v. Now with nothing else touched in the van i once again left it for a while and before i attempted to start it i checked the control panel. this time the vehicle battery was showing 12.8v and well you guessed it the thing started. How can a battery increase in voltage with nothing charging it and nothing else turned off?

For me this points to an issue somewhere with the vehicle battery, i have no idea what and at present i am getting no where with the dealer as when they had it a few weeks ago they said vehicle battery was ok.

How much is it for a new vehicle battery as i just might consider getting one myself and charging the dealer if this does indeed solve my issue?

i will need to get it fitted by NCC approved to make sure my warranty is not affected, this will i am sure add some cost to it.

Thoughts and suggestions welcome!

 

[Zains Pops]

I had exactly the same issue last year on my Transit. Intermittent starting. Turned the key sometimes life,sometimes nowt. The main dealer rebuilt the ignition switch for £500. Told me all was ok, it wasn't, eventually reached the stage where it wouldn't go at all. Recovered to same main dealer who traced a dodgy starter relay. Changed that £40. Been as good gold ever since.
So get them to check change the relays.

 

[Steve and Denise]

@zac The onboard displays are not that accurate on some vans it may pay you to get a multi meter and check the battery at the terminals then on the leads and so on even up to the starter solenoid even If you put a temp wire from the starter solenoid .

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[zac]

I had exactly the same issue last year on my Transit. Intermittent starting. Turned the key sometimes life,sometimes nowt. The min dealer rebuilt the ignition switch for £500. Told me all was ok, it wasn't, eventually reached the stage where it wouldn't go at all. Recoverers to same main dealer who traced a dodgy starter relay. Changed that £40. Been as good gold ever since.
So get them to check the relays.

I can understand that it is difficult to trace a fault like this but i cannot trust a MH that intermittently wont start, the dealer for me has not been helpful in either of the 2 issues i have with the MH. I have sent them an email to see what will now happen but my guess is nothing.

 

[zac]

@zac The onboard displays are not that accurate on some vans it may pay you to get a multi meter and check the battery at the terminals then on the leads and so on even up to the starter solenoid even If you put a temp wire from the starter solenoid .

I am afraid my skill set it limited here, i dont know what a solenoid even looks like. I could probably do the battery test though.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Have you got a local Fiat garage as I found Brownhills useless this sounds like a Fiat issue they cant fix simple things so will have no chance with your intermittent problem and also if you use a Fiat garage it will not affect any warranty.

 

[zac]

Have you got a local Fiat garage as I found Brownhills useless this sounds like a Fiat issue they cant fix simple things so will have no chance with your intermittent problem and also if you use a Fiat garage it will not affect any warranty.

Yes i have one in Southampton, I will have to call them to see how this plays out under warranty terms. i expect they will want to charge which for me is not right on a new vehicle.

 

[Steve and Denise]

A Fiat garage will not charge you for any warranty work and you should get good service we have a new Hymer and I am off to get a warranty job done at my local Fiat dealer later today.

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[Silver-Fox]

I am afraid my skill set it limited here, i dont know what a solenoid even looks like. I could probably do the battery test though.

My neighbour had issues with his car with an intermittent starting fault.
Battery was tested on more than one occasion by the main dealer and he was told all was good.
I told him to just change it and all was good after.

Think my approach would be to tell the dealer you bought from to change the battery and if they won't tell them you will go else where and send them any invoices for work carried out. Just maybe that will spur them into life.
After all its not a high end item and would eliminate any chance of that being the issue.

 

[zac]

My neighbour had issues with his car with an intermittent starting fault.
Battery was tested on more than one occasion by the main dealer and he was told all was good.
I told him to just change it and all was good after.

Think my approach would be to tell the dealer you bought from to change the battery and if they won't tell them you will go else where and send them any invoices for work carried out. Just maybe that will spur them into life.
After all its not a high end item and would eliminate any chance of that being the issue.

I agree, it will also save my vehicle having another 400 miles put on it. I will wait for their reply and then suggest it.

 

[Bobby22]

Have you had the engine earth strap replaced. Even a cleaned up one might not work.

Your voltage drop could be caused by the earth strap heating from the engine and not getting the same contact.

I once drove 150 miles in a Citroen Relay stopped for a minute and it would not start.
The RAC chap sorted the earth strap and no problem afterwards. Van was less than 1 year old.

 

[zac]

Have you had the engine earth strap replaced. Even a cleaned up one might not work.

Your voltage drop could be caused by the earth strap heating from the engine and not getting the same contact.

I once drove 150 miles in a Citroen Relay stopped for a minute and it would not start.
The RAC chap sorted the earth strap and no problem afterwards. Van was less than 1 year old.

As far as i am aware the checks have only been around the battery from the dealer.

 

[Bobby22]

As far as i am aware the checks have only been around the battery from the dealer.

A simple check, once it happens again, is to put a jump lead from the earth terminal of the battery to a decent earth on the engine. Try and start, if it starts its the earth strap. No cost elimination!

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[MitchandJenny]

Hi Zac.
For what it costs I personally would buy a new engine earth strap and fit it yourself after cleaning both attachment points.
Re-check the battery connections and for £10 buy a starter relay (it's just a pull out and re-fit relay)
You have then eliminated a few of the points suggested here.
Also, have you got a multimeter ?? You can buy one for a tenner and they are invaluable.
You don't have to be a "techy" to use one.
Just set the dial to what you want to measure e.g. Continuity, D.C voltage and even mains A.C. voltage.
Intermittent faults are the owner and Vehicle tech's worst nightmare.
I wish you well with your problem and remember, it will all be worth it when you solve it...
Mitch.

 

[PhilG]

Starter relay or the exciter wire onto the solenoid.. if its battery I would expect a click from the starter motor, if its the exciter wire on the solenoid with a poor contact, the motor doesn't do anything because there is nothing from the solenoid to tell it to. Had this on my Iveco 7.5 tonner, and 3.5 tonner and more cars than I care to mention, the usual way this plays out is that people change the starter motor, which means the rusty/ poor contact of the small wire is disturbed, and when you put the new one on , it goes , so everyone goes ' it was the starter motor' when it really wasn't. On most solenoids its a small wire onto a single spade connector.

 

[sallylillian]

It's not anything to do with the intelligent charging they now fit on these engines. We had to get ours switched off at the Iveco dealer. Basically the alternator only charges when under load. So if you have been traveling for a couple of hours and prior had been on EHU or have solar I would expect much higher voltages when you stop if intelligent charging was switched off in the ECU. Then when stopped maybe solar feeds the engine bat?

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

From the symptoms and history IMV it can only be related to heat causing a poor contact on either the starter motor solenoid or the relay that feeds it.
Changing the relay is easy and cheap.
To test properly it will need driving as I suggested before to get it really hot and then park in a suitable place to test.
When operating the key the small wire to the starter motor needs checking to see if battery voltage is present. This can be checked at the starter or the fuse box where the relay is. If battery voltage present then it is a faulty starter motor. If not then the relay is likely the problem.
Any auto electrician should be able to test this in minutes once you can replicate the fault

 

[TinaLes]

This must be so frustrating for you, its frustrating for us just reading it! Firstly as you cant do the suggested tests yourself, then as suggested a good auto sparky would know where to start, and yes that would be checking all earthing connections, feeds to solenoid from ignition key switch to activate the starter motor ect, ect.
If it were mine, and as its so new and still under warranty, I would not hesitate in taking it straight to a Fiat professional garage, and no where else, not even Brownhills!
As with many cases when searching for this fault, having taken off all the earthing connections both main and secondary and cleaning them, refastening them under torque, the problem can dissapear.

The lower current side of things, i.e the starter relay, the feed from the ignition switch to the solenoid, can be done and checked after all the high current demand contacts have been cleaned and secured tightly with a large ring spanner or socket.
I have read of many cases where the main engine earthing strap was at fault on Fiat Ducatos (the one from the chassis to the engine) so this is the first check I would do after of course the battery terminals.
I know you are probably suffering from info overload by now, and I do feel your frustration, which I now know is part of being a moho owner.

So, just take it to Fiat Professional, let them sort it out, it will be something simple you bet, they just haven't found it yet!

PS: we are having The Growler & Tracker fitted amongst other stuff at Vanbitz, after we pick up the new van, I feel confident that its not those items that are affecting your starting issues.

So with that, book it into Fiat, and please let us all know what it was when fixed, as I am sure it will be.
Best wishes
TinaL,s, other half Les eer!, as bless her she wouldn't have a clue either on this lecky stuff

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[TheBig1]

@zac I have had very good service from Adams Morey the fiat professional garage in Southampton. They really know about the Fiat ducato and being fiat pro it keeps your warranty intact

 

[TinaLes]

@zac I have had very good service from Adams Morey the fiat professional garage in Southampton. They really know about the Fiat ducato and being fiat pro it keeps your warranty intact

I second that Zac, Phone them now and get it sorted, all the best, happy travels are just an earth fault away!

 

[Steve N Tracy]

Our 2017 Dethleff Comfort-matic the engine will not turn over unless your foot is on the brake.

 

[PeteH]

Modern Engine Management, especially with CANBUS wiring, is heavily reliant upon GOOD earthing, the current (amps) in the system are very tiny.

The first experience I had of this was an Early Astra, which would put up the engine management light on the dash. Young Tech, at the local Dealer, Cleaned the earthing straps. never happened again in the five years we had it.

 

[zac]

Hi Zac.
For what it costs I personally would buy a new engine earth strap and fit it yourself after cleaning both attachment points.
Re-check the battery connections and for £10 buy a starter relay (it's just a pull out and re-fit relay)
You have then eliminated a few of the points suggested here.
Also, have you got a multimeter ?? You can buy one for a tenner and they are invaluable.
You don't have to be a "techy" to use one.
Just set the dial to what you want to measure e.g. Continuity, D.C voltage and even mains A.C. voltage.
Intermittent faults are the owner and Vehicle tech's worst nightmare.
I wish you well with your problem and remember, it will all be worth it when you solve it...
Mitch.

Sorry for not responding sooner, I will take a look at the battery connections but do you know what starter relay i need as i have no idea what i am looking at? Also is the earth strap a specific one to fit that vehicle or is it a generic one?
I do have a multimeter but i can only work it with assistance from videos on the internet

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[zac]

It's not anything to do with the intelligent charging they now fit on these engines. We had to get ours switched off at the Iveco dealer. Basically the alternator only charges when under load. So if you have been traveling for a couple of hours and prior had been on EHU or have solar I would expect much higher voltages when you stop if intelligent charging was switched off in the ECU. Then when stopped maybe solar feeds the engine bat?

We have solar and a b2b thingy which was fitted by vanbitz and i think this charges both the vehicle and hab batteries although have no idea in what order.

 

[zac]

From the symptoms and history IMV it can only be related to heat causing a poor contact on either the starter motor solenoid or the relay that feeds it.
Changing the relay is easy and cheap.
To test properly it will need driving as I suggested before to get it really hot and then park in a suitable place to test.
When operating the key the small wire to the starter motor needs checking to see if battery voltage is present. This can be checked at the starter or the fuse box where the relay is. If battery voltage present then it is a faulty starter motor. If not then the relay is likely the problem.
Any auto electrician should be able to test this in minutes once you can replicate the fault

The issue here is that the fault is so intermitent that they dont get to see it by me just giving them the vehicle, when it does happen the recovery take so long to get to me that the issue then fixes itself before they arrive which has now happened twice. Catch 22.

 

[zac]

This must be so frustrating for you, its frustrating for us just reading it! Firstly as you cant do the suggested tests yourself, then as suggested a good auto sparky would know where to start, and yes that would be checking all earthing connections, feeds to solenoid from ignition key switch to activate the starter motor ect, ect.
If it were mine, and as its so new and still under warranty, I would not hesitate in taking it straight to a Fiat professional garage, and no where else, not even Brownhills!
As with many cases when searching for this fault, having taken off all the earthing connections both main and secondary and cleaning them, refastening them under torque, the problem can dissapear.

The lower current side of things, i.e the starter relay, the feed from the ignition switch to the solenoid, can be done and checked after all the high current demand contacts have been cleaned and secured tightly with a large ring spanner or socket.
I have read of many cases where the main engine earthing strap was at fault on Fiat Ducatos (the one from the chassis to the engine) so this is the first check I would do after of course the battery terminals.
I know you are probably suffering from info overload by now, and I do feel your frustration, which I now know is part of being a moho owner.

So, just take it to Fiat Professional, let them sort it out, it will be something simple you bet, they just haven't found it yet!

PS: we are having The Growler & Tracker fitted amongst other stuff at Vanbitz, after we pick up the new van, I feel confident that its not those items that are affecting your starting issues.

So with that, book it into Fiat, and please let us all know what it was when fixed, as I am sure it will be.
Best wishes
TinaL,s, other half Les eer!, as bless her she wouldn't have a clue either on this lecky stuff

I think this is what I am going to do to be honest as i just dont know what i am doing, i might do the simplest one i.e. change earth starp and that relay once i know what i need to get as this looks easy enough. After that if it goes again i will just book it in and hope for the best, i cant help but think it is related to the voltage as i know the last time it did it it read 12.4v and when it then started it was reading 12.6v (just before starting). Only time will tell as i expect now it will be a few weeks/months before it happens again.

 

[zac]

Our 2017 Dethleff Comfort-matic the engine will not turn over unless your foot is on the brake.

I wish it were that simple tried and tested already.

 

[zac]

Modern Engine Management, especially with CANBUS wiring, is heavily reliant upon GOOD earthing, the current (amps) in the system are very tiny.

The first experience I had of this was an Early Astra, which would put up the engine management light on the dash. Young Tech, at the local Dealer, Cleaned the earthing straps. never happened again in the five years we had it.

Going to change this one and see what happens, just need to find it first and know what i need to get to replace it with.

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