Ducato engine/gearbox given up in France. (1 Viewer)

[NicM]

Don't think the cam belt is in the photos.

 

[DBK]

Which bit in the photos is the cambelt?

It's not visible as it has been removed to take off the head, which is the bit in the right hand photo. It looks like a piston has whacked the valves. Cause probably as suggested the cam belt has slipped.

 

[Spriddler]

UPDATE
Cambelt IS intact.

Bloomin' 'eck, what a mess!
If it was mine I'd want a new engine. The cylinder bore will be scored and at the very least it'll need a rebore, new cyl head, set of pistons, valves and there'll be metal swarf throughout.....................

Which bit in the photos is the cambelt?

Not in the pic. It has to be removed to take the head off.

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[nicholsong]

Bloomin' 'eck, what a mess!
If it was mine I'd want a new engine. The cylinder bore will be scored and at the very least it'll need a rebore, new cyl head, set of pistons, valves and there'll be metal swarf throughout.....................

Not in the pic. It has to be removed to take the head off.

I think a re-conditioned engine might be a good option and may even be cheaper.

 

[eurajohn]

Genuine Fiat recon unit around €6k plus whatever ancillaries the garage decide necessary possibly turbo, intercooler, EGR unit etc, unlikely to be less than €12 in total.

If you look closely at the pictures you will see witness of valve to piston on the others as well as the obvious one.

 

[eurajohn]

Picture attached of similar damage to a 2014 engine that occurred to a lady living in Germany, that occasion cost her just short of 14k.
That particular one was not associated to the cam belt, the German Fiat garage that carried out the work suggested the valves failed!

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[chaser]

Picture attached of similar damage to a 2014 engine that occurred to a lady living in Germany, that occasion cost her just short of 14k.
That particular one was not associated to the cam belt, the German Fiat garage that carried out the work suggested the valves failed!


View attachment 606153

Wow that is similar.

 

[pagey]

I feel for you

 

[mitzimad]

Bloomin' 'eck, what a mess!
If it was mine I'd want a new engine. The cylinder bore will be scored and at the very least it'll need a rebore, new cyl head, set of pistons, valves and there'll be metal swarf throughout.....................

Not in the pic. It has to be removed to take the head off.

its not a given that the bore is scored weve rebuilt one new piston and new head ,valves embed in the soft ally of the piston and stay there

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[Spriddler]

its not a given that the bore is scored weve rebuilt one new piston and new head ,valves embed in the soft ally of the piston and stay there

Like this.........

Yes, I've done a couple but it looked to me that the valve heads had snapped off after being hit by the piston and been rattling up and down loose in the bore with all the other bits of shrapnel (but we can't see the bore, so que sera.....................).

If I had it rebuilt as you suggest with just a piston, valves, head skim etc. I'd sell it afterwards.

 

[sonar]

Are the piston bore sleeves replaceable . Seems an easier way rather than re boring.
or does that not apply anymore .

 

[PhilandMena]

Not an expert by any measure but if the Cam Belt was fine when removed and changed a few thousand K's ago what chance has this poor man being successful with a claim against the garage that changed the Cam Belt ? Could there be another cause that results in the same failure mode ???

Thanks Mixyblob for the feedback and pictures.

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[Spriddler]

Not an expert by any measure but if the Cam Belt was fine when removed and changed a few thousand K's ago what chance has this poor man being successful with a claim against the garage that changed the Cam Belt ? Could there be another cause that results in the same failure mode ???

Thanks Mixyblob for the feedback and pictures.

The belt tension could've been too little when fitted or an intermediate pulley could've failed and the belt skipped a tooth or two.

 

[Mixyblob]

The French garage seem to think the UK garage fitted the new cambelt with the timing slightly out. They think it was probably started before they realised and before they re ajusted the timing correctly.
Concequently some damage had already been done, which explains the valve contact marks on the other pistons.

 

[Phill D]

The French garage seem to think the UK garage fitted the new cambelt with the timing slightly out. They think it was probably started before they realised and before they re ajusted the timing correctly.
Concequently some damage had already been done, which explains the valve contact marks on the other pistons.

Wow that will be difficult to prove..
I hope you can get enough proof to cover what's needed.

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[gus-lopez]

The French garage seem to think the UK garage fitted the new cambelt with the timing slightly out. They think it was probably started before they realised and before they re ajusted the timing correctly.
Concequently some damage had already been done, which explains the valve contact marks on the other pistons.

Looking at the marks on the other pistons I'd agree.

 

[eurajohn]

The French garage seem to think the UK garage fitted the new cambelt with the timing slightly out. They think it was probably started before they realised and before they re ajusted the timing correctly.
Concequently some damage had already been done, which explains the valve contact marks on the other pistons.

Quite possible.
There have been a few threads recently on cam belt change and the cost of getting it done, I've commented on a few but given up now as many think that it is best to get the job done as cheaply as is possible, but I'll wager the budget ones do not do the job properly.
By that I mean if you follow the correct procedure it is a task that has to be attacked from top and bottom, and involves removing quite a lot of what may appear to be unnecessary and using various tools and timing pins that insure the correct timing is achieved, it is of course however possible to just remove the old belt and hope nothing moves whilst the belt is off and slip the new one in its place, which I would suggest the way the cheapo ones do it, OK if nothing goes wrong.
Part of the correct procedure is to slacken the cam pulley bolt and reposition the pulley to suit the new belt which ensures absolutely correct timing when carried out, not likely part of the procedure if looking to do it quickly / cheaply.

As I mentioned previously the OP is likely to end up with a bill of €12k or so, ask yourself "do I feel lucky" next time you choose who renews your cam belt.

As an add the picture I posted earlier was from a 2014 Ducato that had covered 44000Kms, glad I've not got a low mileage 2014 van

 

[MichaelT]

Our 2014 Ducato based Globecar Campscout ground to a halt yesterday halfway through our tour of France.
It suddenly lost power, accompanied by some weird noises from the engine and gearbox area along with a dashboard that lit up like a 70s disco.
Attempting to restart it resulted in a "donk" as the starter motor tried to turn unsuccessfully.
The vehicle will roll ok as we found out later when recovered by a low loader.
We are luckily now parked at a private aire, awaiting our breakdown company to deliver us to the nearest Fiat garage in Albi once France wakes up after the weekend.
The van has done 22000 miles and had a full service, MOT and timing belt change just before our trip.
No external signs of damage, no leaks, smells or anything obvious.
We were just wondering if anyone has had a similar experience of if any mechanical experts might have a guess as to whats occured, pending a very expensive bill from Fiat.

Who actually changed the belt, was it a Fiat professional garage?

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[Wildbill]

UPDATE
Cambelt IS intact.

Looking at that and if timing belt still intact the engine has at sum time been mis timed causing fatugey on valve stem as no other valves are bent in other cylinder's this suggest to me valve failure

 

[ambulancekidd]

It's not much help to you, but I think I can speak for all of us, we're feeling your pain & hope this all gets resolved really soon & to your satisfaction.

 

[Mixyblob]

Who actually changed the belt, was it a Fiat professional garage?

As per the rules of the forum, I'm not going to name the garage that carried out the work, especially as its not been proved that they were at fault… yet
.

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[MichaelT]

As per the rules of the forum, I'm not going to name the garage that carried out the work, especially as its not been proved that they were at fault… yet
.

I did not ask you to name them just to confirm if it was a Fiat Proefessional garage

 

[pappajohn]

It's not visible as it has been removed to take off the head, which is the bit in the right hand photo. It looks like a piston has whacked the valves. Cause probably as suggested the cam belt has slipped.

Definitely more than whacked them .....
The valve heads have been having a ball seeing which one can cause the most dents and damage to the head
Definitely a new cylinder head complete, one piston and possibly a con-rod if it got bent

 

[pappajohn]

If I had it rebuilt as you suggest with just a piston, valves, head skim etc. I'd sell it afterwards.

Certainly won't be refitting that head.
There's very little left of the valve seats and nowhere to fit new seats due to extensive Damage around the valve holes .....far too much damage

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[Spriddler]

Certainly won't be refitting that head.
There's very little left of the valve seats and nowhere to fit new seats due to extensive Damage around the valve holes .....far too much damage

Exactly. In the unlikely event that it would work it'd be an unacceptable bodge. That's why I'd get shot of it.

The French garage seem to think the UK garage fitted the new cambelt with the timing slightly out. They think it was probably started before they realised and before they re ajusted the timing correctly.
Concequently some damage had already been done, which explains the valve contact marks on the other pistons.

I'm not familiar with that engine but it looks as though the valves are inclined and so their heads wouldn't be parallel to the piston crown. If that's the case then if the engine was actually started and run, even briefly, with the pistons hitting the outer edge of the valves' heads I wouldn't have thought that there'd be a second chance to re-time it.

 

[eurajohn]

The dropped valves are one of each i.e. 1 inlet, 1exhaust, if you look carefully at the remains the other 3 pistons are marked but only by the inlets.

 

[Lenny HB]

Ouch! That looks expensive I hope you get some redress from the garage that changed the belt.

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[chaser]

As per the rules of the forum, I'm not going to name the garage that carried out the work, especially as its not been proved that they were at fault… yet
.

Don't know what I would do in your shoes, really sympathize , if I had to foot the bill with no insurance or warranty, I don't think I could afford it, but the thing is what do you do, the van is no good without an engine, but will you ever get it back, if it was me with my van not worth a lot I think I would scrap it and get another, but with a van that's worth a lot you don't have that option, just hope you can get something back one road or another.

 

[Mixyblob]

I did not ask you to name them just to confirm if it was a Fiat Proefessional garage

No, not a Fiat garage.