Lithium Batteries - Am I missing the point (1 Viewer)

[Fraggle 22]

We met a bloke at the weekend who was singing the praises of Lithium batteries. We have motorhomed for 5 years and have 2 x 100amp hr lead acid batteries plus 100 watt solar panel. We rarely use EHU and spend most of our time on CS or THS for approx 12 weeks per season. We have never had a problem with power so I'm not sure why I would spend £900 on Lithium. I know they are lighter and more powerful but it would probably be easier to leave the wife at home than change! Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[BillyKontiki]

KS Energy are a good company to deal with, the owner Neal is very helpful and knowledgable.
Check him out on utube.

 

[BillyKontiki]

Also hard to find victron chargers etc cheaper

 

[Off da Grid]

If you don’t need it don’t get it.
Our leasure battery is stamped 2014 still going strong wet lead acid, if it ain’t broke......
Currently of grid on a new site river view camping in Yalding Kent.
Solar is doing its stuff no complaints.

 

[CazPaul]

If you don’t need it don’t get it.
Our leasure battery is stamped 2014 still going strong wet lead acid, if it ain’t broke......
Currently of grid on a new site river view camping in Yalding Kent.
Solar is doing its stuff no complaints.

Our x2 140AH Deta gels are in their 17th year, original fit March 2005 van.

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[TheAleMan]

Our x2 140AH Deta gels are in their 17th year, original fit March 2005 van.

That’s amazing Paul. Perhaps some sort of record.

 

[Off da Grid]

Suppose it does matter how far you discharge your batteries, if your a light user they will last a lot longer.

 

[Lenny HB]

Our x2 140AH Deta gels are in their 17th year, original fit March 2005 van.

They will be down to about 182ah due to aging.

 

[Ingwe]

I agree that it’s not compulsory to get lithium batteries. But for some of us, it seems to be the way forward. We have only one leisure battery at 95Ah and one 120watt solar panel.

We are not big power uses (relatively speaking) but we’ve found that 2-3 days off grid is the most we can manage before needing EHU (the need to empty the toilet cassette is the other main limiting factor).

Lithium seems a relatively cheap way of getting more off-grid capacity (that’s when we can find someone to fit us in and is less than 100 miles away). So it’s horses for courses.

 

[Ingwe]

Now, I’m really confused! Saw the reference to KS Energy in post #31 above, so went to their home page. From that it seems that, despite my previous understanding, their lithium batteries ARE a straight forward drop in replacement for a lead acid battery. I cut and paste an excerpt from their site below:

“Our batteries have been designed to be a like for like no-nonsense drop in replacement for older AGM, GEL or lead-acid deep cycle leisure batteries. There is no requirement for you to change or modify your existing mains or solar chargers and our batteries can be charged directly from the vehicles existing standard fixed voltage 14.4V alternator. They "abuse proof" in that they incorporate over charge/under charge/over temperature and under temperature protection.”

I‘d originally posted about the possibility of buying a lithium battery as direct drop in replacement for my existing Varta 95Ah leisure battery given that fitting a second leisure battery, in our van, seemed problematical. Now I‘m looking at having to fit a B2B charger, upgrading my solar controller to a MPPT type and probably also replacing the van’s existing charger.

Clearly, a drop in replacement is preferable but I wonder if, in my ignorance, I‘m comparing apples with oranges?
For the avoidance of any doubt, I’m not in any way criticising KS Energy or implying they’re wrong. And if one of their batteries is designed to fit under the driver’s seat, that opens the possibility of fitting more than battery. Maybe I need to re-read the advice I’ve had to date.

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[Fraggle 22]

If you don’t need it don’t get it.
Our leasure battery is stamped 2014 still going strong wet lead acid, if it ain’t broke......
Currently of grid on a new site river view camping in Yalding Kent.
Solar is doing its stuff no complaints.

Thanks. My sentiments entirely

 

[Lenny HB]

Now, I’m really confused! Saw the reference to KS Energy in post #31 above, so went to their home page. From that it seems that, despite my previous understanding, their lithium batteries ARE a straight forward drop in replacement for a lead acid battery. I cut and paste an excerpt from their site below:

“Our batteries have been designed to be a like for like no-nonsense drop in replacement for older AGM, GEL or lead-acid deep cycle leisure batteries. There is no requirement for you to change or modify your existing mains or solar chargers and our batteries can be charged directly from the vehicles existing standard fixed voltage 14.4V alternator. They "abuse proof" in that they incorporate over charge/under charge/over temperature and under temperature protection.”

I‘d originally posted about the possibility of buying a lithium battery as direct drop in replacement for my existing Varta 95Ah leisure battery given that fitting a second leisure battery, in our van, seemed problematical. Now I‘m looking at having to fit a B2B charger, upgrading my solar controller to a MPPT type and probably also replacing the van’s existing charger.

Clearly, a drop in replacement is preferable but I wonder if, in my ignorance, I‘m comparing apples with oranges?
For the avoidance of any doubt, I’m not in any way criticising KS Energy or implying they’re wrong. And if one of their batteries is designed to fit under the driver’s seat, that opens the possibility of fitting more than battery. Maybe I need to re-read the advice I’ve had to date.

Lots of Lithium batteries say they are drop in replacement, they will work but if you want the best out of them and a long life don't believe it. Fit the correct mains charger/solar regulator & B2B to do the job properly.
Not much point in spending a fortune on the battery then not getting the best out of it.

 

[Tombola]

If you are a heavy power user and need fast recharge ability you will appreciate them.
COst ??? ebay cheapos 100ah 400-500, alibaba loads of em.

I dropped in 200ah of polinovel bluetooth and bms, and when I get to sites now even with EHU , sometimes I dont bother plugging in. Best addition to the van apart from the beer fridge

 

[jako999]

We currently have 2x 95 amp lead and solar and it works fine.
I would have gone Lithium on our new van but the cost was silly it could only be ordered with solar and an inverter at a cost of £10,000 and being as I always fit my own solar at around £600 and we only need a small inverter that’s a big waste of cash in mine opinion, so I’ve just ordered another battery at a cost of £300 and when they give up in a few years time then I’ll upgrade them with lithium.

 

[funflair]

We currently have 2x 95 amp lead and solar and it works fine.
I would have gone Lithium on our new van but the cost was silly it could only be ordered with solar and an inverter at a cost of £10,000 and being as I always fit my own solar at around £600 and we only need a small inverter that’s a big waste of cash in mine opinion, so I’ve just ordered another battery at a cost of £300 and when they give up in a few years time then I’ll upgrade them with lithium.

We specced lithium on our new van and then added more to make 480ah total, yes it’s silly money but now we just run everything on 240v from the inverter and do everything with gas other than for heating.

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[Coolcats]

It sounds like Lithium batteries are or can be quite expensive so unless you have a need why bother, our AGM's are now 3 years old and working fine and sufficient for what we need if they last another 12-24 months on our current usage then the chances are the cost of one change out could last us for 10 years, so for us and how we currently use the batteries I cannot see the point and expense of lithium.

 

[funflair]

It sounds like Lithium batteries are or can be quite expensive so unless you have a need why bother, our AGM's are now 3 years old and working fine and sufficient for what we need if they last another 12-24 months on our current usage then the chances are the cost of one change out could last us for 10 years, so for us and how we currently use the batteries I cannot see the point and expense of lithium.

You are absolutely correct, if it works for you leave it alone

 

[CazPaul]

They will be down to about 182ah due to aging.

They still work fine though off grid so leaving well alone.

 

[robert groves]

We had a 120Ah Lithium Battery fitted in mid-July to replace a [fitted new in April by Dealer] bottom of the range Lead Acid 100Ah which struggled to keep up. Cost was £749 including fitting and it has removed all the 'range anxiety', enabling us to book for Autumn events without having to fret about grabbing an EHU. For us, it has been a solid investment, no 'latest gadget/shiny kit syndrome', just a practical way of powering the 12v system.

Battery has 10 year guarantee, so if it sees off 4 Lead Acid equivalents, it won't be that much more expensive in the long run.

Steve

"Bottom of the range Lead Acid 100Ah"...says it all

 

[Richard Mason]

It's the latest "thing".

Hobbyist love to have the latest thing.

JJ

Rather a shallow unhelpful remark.

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[tonyidle]

24 pieces of 280Ah lithiums for £94 all in. Really!! I'd expect that kind of price for 2800mAh. I'd love to see the link for those.

I got it wrong - it was only 16 for £92 + carriage £9 . Can't find any more.

 

[Phill D]

Rather a shallow unhelpful remark.

But nonetheless very accurate

 

[tonyidle]

24 pieces of 280Ah lithiums for £94 all in. Really!! I'd expect that kind of price for 2800mAh. I'd love to see the link for those.

It was from Wish and I can't find any more of them.

 

[Cliff Bryant]

Deleted

 

[Garry - June]

Lead acid 200 charge cycles max. Lithium 2000 charge cycles min. If you intend to motorhome long term it's considerably cheaper.

That is a totally misleading quote... my LA cost £110 each.... and equivalent Lithium would be around 6x that cost... firstly the Lithium wont last 6 times as long if you think mine will last around 4 yrs that would mean the lithium would have to last 24yrs... add on to that ...just how many people actually keep their vans that long.. I'm not slating Lithium and may even consider them myself at a future date if the price continues to drop... but at the moment the sums just don't make it viable... and we fulltime in our van with 400w solar and 300ah LA with no power issues or concerns so far.. and weeks at a time off grid.

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[Clive Mott]

If you have gas heating and fridge I would agree, unless like us you were chasing payload then we gained 62kg by going lithium. Have a compressor fridge and diesel heater in a PVC then it's pretty well a must have if you need to be Hookup free, along with a chunky B2B.

 

[Captain Birdseye]

It’s down to personal usage and how you feel about your set up, l feel content in not having to worry about consumption no matter the weather or my movements if l want to stay in one place for a month l could. We use electric kettle,coffee machine,TV,Amazon Prime etc,two electric bikes, Mac,iPads,phones and so on. Solar, 360amph Lithium,EFoy sorted.

We had all that you have except for a smaller lithium battery. Sold our efoy1600 on ebay because the 5a charge it provides is irrelavent with lithium batteries and high usage.

 

[Dipper65]

Anyone considering assembling their own battery? I've just ordered 24 x 285Ah cells which with the addition of a BMS per battery will make six 285Ah 12v batteries.

Yes, I built a 90ah LiFePO4 battery with a case, BMS and balance board for less than £250 from AliExpress. The actual capacity turned out to be 82ah which was a pleasant surprise as all we needed really was 50ah as we use very little 12v in our PVC. It's been in the van for 2 years and has worked faultlessly, the big advantage for us is the space and weight saving and at AliExpress prices replacing was a no brainer ...fit and forget.

If anyone is interested in the list of parts I used I'll put up a separate post.

Sadly I doubt your cheap cells will be as promised but you never know!

Page Not Found - Aliexpress.com

a.aliexpress.com

 

[tonyidle]

That is a totally misleading quote... my LA cost £110 each.... and equivalent Lithium would be around 6x that cost... firstly the Lithium wont last 6 times as long if you think mine will last around 4 yrs that would mean the lithium would have to last 24yrs... add on to that ...just how many people actually keep their vans that long.. I'm not slating Lithium and may even consider them myself at a future date if the price continues to drop... but at the moment the sums just don't make it viable... and we fulltime in our van with 400w solar and 300ah LA with no power issues or concerns so far.. and weeks at a time off grid.

You may be correct but I've had LAs last anything from 2 years to 6 years with most about 3 years. I too wouldn't pay some of the higher prices being asked but they are worth a premium just to remove 'battery anxiety' . Consider that a Lithium of half the capacity of a LA will out-perform it, that it can be left for months without losing charge, etc etc.

On a separate note I have two panels totalling 400W and a two and a half years old 235Ah Bosch battery. Although kept on float for the past 9 months it has died during my current trip. It cost £220. It also takes two people to lift it. Starts to make lithium look like a bargain.

 

[tonyidle]

Yes, I built a 90ah LiFePO4 battery with a case, BMS and balance board for less than £250 from AliExpress. The actual capacity turned out to be 82ah which was a pleasant surprise as all we needed really was 50ah as we use very little 12v in our PVC. It's been in the van for 2 years and has worked faultlessly, the big advantage for us is the space and weight saving and at AliExpress prices replacing was a no brainer ...fit and forget.

If anyone is interested in the list of parts I used I'll put up a separate post.

Sadly I doubt your cheap cells will be as promised but you never know!

Page Not Found - Aliexpress.com

a.aliexpress.com

As long as I can get one 12v battery out of them I'll be more than happy. If at least three of them are not as advertised I'll use PayPal / credit card facilities to obtain a refund.

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[Coolcats]

Rather a shallow unhelpful remark.

Isn’t there a saying he who dies with the most toys wins