Lithium Batteries - Am I missing the point (1 Viewer)

[Fraggle 22]

We met a bloke at the weekend who was singing the praises of Lithium batteries. We have motorhomed for 5 years and have 2 x 100amp hr lead acid batteries plus 100 watt solar panel. We rarely use EHU and spend most of our time on CS or THS for approx 12 weeks per season. We have never had a problem with power so I'm not sure why I would spend £900 on Lithium. I know they are lighter and more powerful but it would probably be easier to leave the wife at home than change! Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Cliff Bryant]

That is a totally misleading quote... my LA cost £110 each.... and equivalent Lithium would be around 6x that cost... firstly the Lithium wont last 6 times as long if you think mine will last around 4 yrs that would mean the lithium would have to last 24yrs... add on to that ...just how many people actually keep their vans that long.. I'm not slating Lithium and may even consider them myself at a future date if the price continues to drop... but at the moment the sums just don't make it viable... and we fulltime in our van with 400w solar and 300ah LA with no power issues or concerns so far.. and weeks at a time off grid.

It's a rather more complex equation. For example what depth of discharge do you apply to your LA batteries? If greater than 50% you will definitely shorten their lifetime. You only need half the capacity of lithium to replace LA, ie a 100Ah lithium is roughly equivalent to a 200Ah LA as it can be discharged almost fully. So it's 3x cost for a similar usable capacity. Also LA batteries cannot be charged at anywhere near the rate lithium can. This means that there may simply not be enough hours of daylight (or driving) to fully recharge the batteries. The bottom line is it really depends if you are a light user or not. My own van has a single 100A KS Energy lithium, 200W of solar and a victron B2B. We regularly cane the battery with an inverter (120A draw) but the power is restored fully within a few hours or less. That would not happen with LA batteries.
Lithium batteries are game changers, but only if the usage case requires it.

 

[ED O'DARAC]

I have big lithium plus big solar at home, also pure ev cars so please don't think I am anti-LiFePo4 in any way.
However, my reservation in my camper is over the ultra-high charge rates that lithium batteries can 'vacuum' up.
Vehicles have been designed to charge lead-acid batteries with their slower charging ability. They have a natural resistance to charging, so this system 'works' in diesel base vehicles.
If you add in a new battery that will take massive amperage, the alternator will try to give it.
As I see it, this is trying to change a diesel vehicle into a form of hybrid ev without the sophisticated charging infrastructure.

Reports of damaged alternators that I have heard are either true or fictional, I shall wait a little longer before changing my vans to lithium. (Happy to be proved wrong)

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[138go]

We have them. They weigh less and give you more electric.

 

[Cliff Bryant]

I have big lithium plus big solar at home, also pure ev cars so please don't think I am anti-LiFePo4 in any way.
However, my reservation in my camper is over the ultra-high charge rates that lithium batteries can 'vacuum' up.
Vehicles have been designed to charge lead-acid batteries with their slower charging ability. They have a natural resistance to charging, so this system 'works' in diesel base vehicles.
If you add in a new battery that will take massive amperage, the alternator will try to give it.
As I see it, this is trying to change a diesel vehicle into a form of hybrid ev without the sophisticated charging infrastructure.

Reports of damaged alternators that I have heard are either true or fictional, I shall wait a little longer before changing my vans to lithium. (Happy to be proved wrong)

You need a decent B2B system to charge lithium properly. In fact with a modern van you need a B2B to charge lead acid batteries as well. My Victron B2B will charge at a maximum of 30A (to the battery). It charges even if the alternator voltage drops as it has a buck-boost circuit.
There are videos on youtube showing alternators being destroyed with high loads, such as lirhium batteries. So called 'drop in' batteries rely on the wiring providing a voltage drop to limit the current. Not a properly engineered solution. Factor a B2B into the equation and all is well.
I'm currently in northern France where it's cloudy. The lithium dropped to 70% overnight so when I start driving the B2B will fully recharge it in about an hour, a bit less if the sun comes out again.

 

[Krumpli]

I will admit to being an idiot. When we bought our MH it had two leisure batteries, both under a rather nice yellow cover. We were assured that the batteries were sealed for life. Here is the idiot bit, I completely forgot about them and never even looked at them. For 11 years we spent around 9 months a year roaming around Greece and Eastern Europe, mainly "wild camping".
Just before the first lockdown we noticed the interior lamps were getting weaker and called at a garage I know in Budapest. He politely told me that the batteries need topping up. We used two five litre bottles of deionised water. This did no good at all so we invested in another lead/acid jobby which does the job nicely.
Not bad for uncared for batteries that lasted 11 years.
By the way I now have a sealed for life battery which I care for!!!

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[JJ]

Rather a shallow unhelpful remark.

Sorry it didn't "help" you...

It is, however, exactly what I feel about the subject.

I don't believe everything has to be "deep" on Fun.

I appreciate you taking the trouble to post your views.

JJ

(PS. I live fulltime (off grid) in my motorhome and have done so for over thirty years. I don't have a lithium battery.)

 

[peterc10]

I have big lithium plus big solar at home, also pure ev cars so please don't think I am anti-LiFePo4 in any way.
However, my reservation in my camper is over the ultra-high charge rates that lithium batteries can 'vacuum' up.
Vehicles have been designed to charge lead-acid batteries with their slower charging ability. They have a natural resistance to charging, so this system 'works' in diesel base vehicles.
If you add in a new battery that will take massive amperage, the alternator will try to give it.
As I see it, this is trying to change a diesel vehicle into a form of hybrid ev without the sophisticated charging infrastructure.

Reports of damaged alternators that I have heard are either true or fictional, I shall wait a little longer before changing my vans to lithium. (Happy to be proved wrong)

As I understand it that is why a B2B is always recommended when fitting Lithium batteries, because it provides a more sophisticated charging regime.

 

[Ade S]

After lockdown, illness then lockdown again my van and leisure battery were dead new van battery and lithium leisure battery with all the accessories. I now only ever think about the battery to show interested o5her# I can check the battery via my smart phone, sad I admit but it’s my choice

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[ED O'DARAC]

You need a decent B2B system to charge lithium properly. In fact with a modern van you need a B2B to charge lead acid batteries as well. My Victron B2B will charge at a maximum of 30A (to the battery). It charges even if the alternator voltage drops as it has a buck-boost circuit.
There are videos on youtube showing alternators being destroyed with high loads, such as lirhium batteries. So called 'drop in' batteries rely on the wiring providing a voltage drop to limit the current. Not a properly engineered solution. Factor a B2B into the equation and all is well.
I'm currently in northern France where it's cloudy. The lithium dropped to 70% overnight so when I start driving the B2B will fully recharge it in about an hour, a bit less if the sun comes out again.

Very helpful, thanks. It is great to have pioneers testing things out for MHF members.

If the B2B restricts the charging significantly, to protect the alternator, they don't charge as fast as possible. This is throttling back the lithium charging to that of lead acid batteries.
The other benefits of lithium must be huge to balance out the cost as LiFePo4 is used for EVs to accept massive, massive charging on regen braking down hills.
Please don't get me wrong, Lithium has many good points,
Weight/power is better, and deep discharging performance is better, and I shall probably buy one when vehicles are hybrid, but lead acid is the solution that works with solar and vehicle battery charging for me at the moment.
Please feel free to call me a Luddite

 

[two]

Lithium provides just another way to store electricity. There could well be even more solutions in a couple more years.
Much of what I read about the benefits of Lithium appears to be repeated marketing material rather than measured experience.
If uncertain, stand back and watch whilst sticking with an older and proven solution.

I'm not sure why B2B or a new charger is so important if you have solar with Lithium-compatible controller. So long as one of your charging mechanisms can manage your Lithium completely, you shouldn't need the others to.

 

[eddie]

Lithium provides just another way to store electricity. There could well be even more solutions in a couple more years.
Much of what I read about the benefits of Lithium appears to be repeated marketing material rather than measured experience.
If uncertain, stand back and watch whilst sticking with an older and proven solution.

I'm not sure why B2B or a new charger is so important if you have solar with Lithium-compatible controller. So long as one of your charging mechanisms can manage your Lithium completely, you shouldn't need the others to.

Your wrong.

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[Cliff Bryant]

Very helpful, thanks. It is great to have pioneers testing things out for MHF members.

If the B2B restricts the charging significantly, to protect the alternator, they don't charge as fast as possible. This is throttling back the lithium charging to that of lead acid batteries.
The other benefits of lithium must be huge to balance out the cost as LiFePo4 is used for EVs to accept massive, massive charging on regen braking down hills.
Please don't get me wrong, Lithium has many good points,
Weight/power is better, and deep discharging performance is better, and I shall probably buy one when vehicles are hybrid, but lead acid is the solution that works with solar and vehicle battery charging for me at the moment.
Please feel free to call me a Luddite

The 30A rate I picked was arbitrary, picked as a compromise to keep the alternator well within tolerance. You can charge Lithium batteries at 1C, no lead acid will ever get near that rate, 0.1C is more like the value you will get on average. That's one reason vehicle manufacturers get away with smaller gauge wiring. With a modern smart alternator you will likely not charge the leisure batteries as the voltage will be too low. Remember with 20A of solar (in Europe) and 30A of B2B the lithium battery will charge from flat in 2 hours.
The massive, massive regenerative charging in EV systems comes from the drive motor(s) which by definition must accept large currents in order to drive the vehicle. They simply switch into generator mode from motor mode. A vehicle alternator is designed to top up a starter battery and then power things like lights not produce 100A continuously although some truck systems will do of course.

I'm not a pioneer of lithium batteries by the way, I've used them for many, many years when designing electronic systems professionally and yes, I used lead acid before lithium became cost effective. The ONLY reason not to use them is cost or usage case. If I didn't need to run an inverter I would have stuck with a single lead acid battery.

You are not a Luddite, you just haven't had the need for lithium (yet).

When the price eventually drops, or the chemistry improves, the lead acid battery will go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[stevec]

As long as I can get one 12v battery out of them I'll be more than happy. If at least three of them are not as advertised I'll use PayPal / credit card facilities to obtain a refund.

You'll need four to make a 12V battery (nominal voltage of 3.2V per cell). Please let us know when you get your shipment and what is delivered.

 

[Raul]

Lithium provides just another way to store electricity. There could well be even more solutions in a couple more years.
Much of what I read about the benefits of Lithium appears to be repeated marketing material rather than measured experience.
If uncertain, stand back and watch whilst sticking with an older and proven solution.

I'm not sure why B2B or a new charger is so important if you have solar with Lithium-compatible controller. So long as one of your charging mechanisms can manage your Lithium completely, you shouldn't need the others to.

ALL charging sources has to be compatible, you don’t just pick one. Besides the B2B is necessary to protect the alternator, and in other cases to extract some charge from smart alternators.
The Li chemistry is well proven storage technology with a superior efficiency compared to Pb. The fact that’s made it late to UK leisure market, does not mean ppl haven’t used it. It’s been used as storage for the past 12-15 years, Even aviation industry is adopting it.

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[Raul]

That is a totally misleading quote... my LA cost £110 each.... and equivalent Lithium would be around 6x that cost... firstly the Lithium wont last 6 times as long if you think mine will last around 4 yrs that would mean the lithium would have to last 24yrs... add on to that ...just how many people actually keep their vans that long.. I'm not slating Lithium and may even consider them myself at a future date if the price continues to drop... but at the moment the sums just don't make it viable... and we fulltime in our van with 400w solar and 300ah LA with no power issues or concerns so far.. and weeks at a time off grid.

That’s not the way to compare the two. What Pb lasts you 4 years, may last me 6 moths. The true way to compare them, is the total energy passed through round trip. At current market prices, the Lithium comes ahead cheaper than Pb, for the amount of energy used. If Pb suits your use for now, that’s fine. But Li will still be light years ahead, and still developing in better use.
As for price drop, supply and demand, reserves of lithium are not abundant. If no other alternative is in sight soon, the Li will be in heavy demand by the EV builders.

 

[Jim]

Lithium provides just another way to store electricity.

You couldn't be more wrong, it's much more than just an electricity store,

The major benefits are to do with the depth of discharge and the rate of charge, these real tangible benefits may or may not, depending on your circumstances, be worth many times the extra cash paid for lithium. Additional minor benefits are weight saving and configuration. For example, I save 20kg of payload and was able to fit them a tight space on their side and one on top of the other. saving crucial space.

So I can use more electricity from my batteries, my solar and or Engine can quickly and easily replenish what I use in a couple of hours max, I save weight and gain storage space.

 

[tonyidle]

You'll need four to make a 12V battery (nominal voltage of 3.2V per cell). Please let us know when you get your shipment and what is delivered.

That's what I said - one 12v battery out of them.

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[Langtoftlad]

"Bottom of the range Lead Acid 100Ah"...says it all

Does it? Is there some Funster snobbery being exhibited

But nonetheless very accurate

Why? If the installation provides all the power needed.
Surely false economy to have more capacity than required?

 

[Phill D]

Does it? Is there some Funster snobbery being exhibited

Why? If the installation provides all the power needed.
Surely false economy to have more capacity than required?

I must be having a bad day, I am not sure why my post is being quoted.

 

[Langtoftlad]

I must be having a bad day, I am not sure why my post is being quoted.

Because you agreed with Robert Groves post without explanation

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[Phill D]

Because you agreed with Robert Groves post without explanation

Think you got it a bit mixed up... I was agreeing with JJ flipant remark if you look back. But it's irrelevant to the thread really.

 

[JJ]

Think you got it a bit mixed up... I was agreeing with JJ flipant remark if you look back. But it's irrelevant to the thread really.

Me... mixed up... surely not!

I gave you a "Thank You" emoji for your "support".

JJ

 

[two]

There are several Lead-Acid chemistries used for storing electricity just as there are Lithium-based, although not all are used for leisure purposes. Capacitive storage is being developed, as are other technologies, with promising enough results to sustain continued research & development. Who knows what the future will hold?
Cost effectiveness is skewed by market pricing. Some old technologies may work out cheaper when they appear to be going out of fashion and a premium is charged for something 'better'. It depends what your driving-force is (time, weight, cost, space, capacity, ...) as to which might suit one best.

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[Murrays]

My first post, though I've been lurking for some time... There's nothing like lead acid vs Lithium Ion to stir up a good argument debate.

As Jim and others have said it's all about the use case. For me it was a no brainer, we bought a new Bailey 662 fitted with an 80Ah lead acid and 100Wp solar panel. Probably fine for touring sites with EHU, but no use for off grid. We tried a couple of trips out and in winter we were using 30+ Ah per day and that was with only lights, heating and a couple of hours of TV. charging from solar was negligible and a recharge from the alternator took many hours of driving from 50% SoC.

My intention was to fit a 2kW inverter for microwave, hairdryer and straightener duty so I did a bit of maths and came up with an estimated usage of up 80Ah per day. I could have gone with as little as 200Ah of good lead acid at say 40kg or Lithium-ion. Space for additional batteries was a primary issue, so instead I chose to build a 280Ah battery based on four EVE cells (looks like the ones in tonyidle's screenshot). They cost me £600 at the end of 2019. The most important thing was this was the biggest capacity that would fit in the same battery box that the 80Ah lead acid came out of (see photo) and easily provide the 150A peak I needed. It was a very simple build with a cheap BMS all from AliExpress.

The battery on its own is not the end of the story of course. I added an additional 270Wp solar panel and MPPT controller, a 60A B2B charger and that 2kW inverter I mentioned. It all works together very well. In summer the 370Wp total solar keeps up on its own and we can last for 5+ days of dull skies without running the engine. When the engine is run it provides roughly a full days electricity every hour.

500Ah+ of lead acid could provide the same usable capacity, but that would have been large and heavy (and more expensive than my DIY build). Lithium Iron Phosphate is one of the safest lithium ion chemistries with an excellent cycle life (well over 2000 cycles at 100% depth of discharge). It was commercialised over 20 years ago so it's not really "the latest thing", it's just the price has reduced over the last few years to make it a realistic option for more applications.

The best prices I've seen recently for this size / type of prismatic cell is below £100 each. £100 for 16 sounds too good to be true, but I hope you get your cells tonyidle, they will be a real bargain! I need another 16 for my home storage system if anyone spots them going cheap!

Steve.

 

[Phill D]

Me... mixed up... surely not!

I gave you a "Thank You" emoji for your "support".

JJ

I think Langtoftlad mixed my support for you up with something else.
You or I mixed up.... Is that even possible...

 

[JJ]

I think Langtoftlad mixed my support for you up with something else.
You or I mixed up.... Is that even possible...

I find that highly unlikely!

JJ

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[JJ]

Think you got it a bit mixed up... I was agreeing with JJ flipant remark if you look back. But it's irrelevant to the thread really.

Oi... nothing "flippant" about my "remark"... just an observation which I believe to be reality.

JJ

 

[Monkeynuts2215]

I was getting peed off with dvla waiting and waiting for my v5 got it and the vehicle, loaded up the van for our first trip (we are Newbies) no getting worried trying to remember everything.

 

[BernieTony]

I've just got a single 100Ah lead acid battery and a 150w solar panel. We just did a week away without EHU and only moved the van once. There's a shunt somewhere in the system, because we can see percentage charge on the battery. We never got below 80%. The battery was normally charged by 1pm, so the solar was idle most of the day.

However, that week was very low use. The fridge was on gas. We charged a phones and a tablet. Used the radio a few times. Used the laptop via a small invertor a few times during daylight hours.

However, I want to keep going away during the Autumn and Spring when the solar panel will provide less power. And as we can both work from laptops now, I'd like to head somewhere on a Thursday night and work from the van on Friday. A pair of laptops will hit the battery much harder. Might also want to put the heating on, which is a couple of amps of continuous draw. In which case, a Lithium battery would be far more useful.

A good battery bank might suit, for the laptops, but as you said for less gas use you would need lithium. Horses for courses.

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[Wack]

It's the latest "thing".

Hobbyist love to have the latest thing.

JJ

This

It's the same with all hobbies , photography for instance , they've got a camera the equivalent of The Terminators arm in a glass cabinet somewhere

It can take perfect pictures of any subject in total darkness operated by a moron

Every year they take a £500 increment towards it