Victron controller ?

[Spanner]

At the moment we have an 80 watt panel factory fitted by Autosleeper and a basic 10amp solar controller along with a 200AH of leisure batteries, the charging is then controlled by the Sergeant power supply that charges the vehicle and leisure batteries as required.
On a good sunny summers day the panel gives up to 4 amps at best, but at this time of year less than 1 amp which isn't enough to keep the batteries topped up when parked.

To improve matters I was thinking of fitting a Victron MPPT 75/15 controller regulator and a Battery Master, then when the weathers a bit warmer fitting another 100watt panel, if required.
As the Sargeant EC500 has a limit of 120 watts I couldn't run both solar panels through the EC500.
Another option would be to use the same type of controller as Techno uses Link Removed which has a bonus over the Victron in that it has its own display

So the question is, is there a better method without the need for two MPPT controllers ?

Any advice most welcome.

Chris

p.s we also have a Sterling B2B charger which is great !

 

[Theonlysue]

Can you not just add another solar panel or 2?

 

[Allanm]

On our similar specc'd Autosleeper ( supplied with just a 30watt panel) I fitted another 80 watt panel and had 3 x 115 ah batteries.
On a sunny day, the panels together produced up to 8 amps but obviously less on a cloudy day, but still produced more than one amp even if it was raining. We used the van all year round with no problems.
I'm not sure about the quality and output of the original fitted panel, it may be an idea to just get a good 120 watt panel and use that.
I bought mine from Sunstore.co.uk and have just bought another 120watt panel to fit on our new van that as yet has no solar panels.

 

[Geo]

IMHO. No
NOT running a new panel thro the Sargeant would be a bonus
having two separate controllers/systems would be a bonus on yer bonus
They build in planned redundancy into Aircraft for a reason but your proposal wont be redundant at all will it? as both systems will be working along side each other,so it would be super reliable, dont know as id pay so much for a controller though, that money would buy another panel and give a lot more for your £ than any gain from a pricey efficient controller
spent on another panel you get another 100 watts

 

[jezport]

Just run the panels straight to the batteries (via a regulator)
I am going to buy a votronic MPPT Duo regulator and display in spring. It will charge your Hab and Cab batteries.

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[aandncaravan]

Spanner, Jeport obviously knows his stuff so take his idea.
Suggest you don't fit a battery master style device, they were ok 10 years ago when there was no other option, but there are now much better and cheaper ways of doing it.
The battery master info says they only start to steal Habitation battery power when the habitation voltage goes above 13.6v. But in reality as soon as any charging system starts charging the habitation battery, that will be the voltage at the battery terminals, so the trigger voltage will be 'seen' by the Battery master.
Therefore whether you want it to or not, it will start taking power for the Starter battery when you actually want every milliamp to go to the Habitation battery for maximum effect.

Better solution to fit the Votronic Duo dual battery charger which will charge both Starter and habitation batteries, with all the priority going to the habitation battery when it needs it.
A very intelligent Solar Controller. Much better than the old generation that gave the Starter battery 20% whether the habitation was full or not.
The Votronic should give an extra 20 - 30% charge this time of year as well, but remember it has to be mounted within 1 metre of the Hab batteries.

With the Sargent EC500, I would suggest you go straight to the batteries, but you can't do this with all Sargent units. The EC325 and EC328 must have nothing connected directly to the battery, but EC500 ok.

The Votronic is one of the new breed that is unlikley to 'fry' the batteries with too high a Float/maintenance voltage as it drops to 13.4v, lower than the normal Solar's 13.8 - 14.2v.

.

 

[Spanner]

Thank you all for the very helpful advice

There isn't a suitable space for a second panel without relocating the satellite dish, however I think there may be enough room to replace the original panel with a larger more efficient panel
I'll measure up and see what size can squeeze into the space.

Thanks again,
Chris

 

[Techno]

Spanner, Jeport obviously knows his stuff so take his idea.
Suggest you don't fit a battery master style device, they were ok 10 years ago when there was no other option, but there are now much better and cheaper ways of doing it.
The battery master info says they only start to steal Habitation battery power when the habitation voltage goes above 13.6v. But in reality as soon as any charging system starts charging the habitation battery, that will be the voltage at the battery terminals, so the trigger voltage will be 'seen' by the Battery master.
Therefore whether you want it to or not, it will start taking power for the Starter battery when you actually want every milliamp to go to the Habitation battery for maximum effect.

Better solution to fit the Votronic Duo dual battery charger which will charge both Starter and habitation batteries, with all the priority going to the habitation battery when it needs it.
A very intelligent Solar Controller. Much better than the old generation that gave the Starter battery 20% whether the habitation was full or not.
The Votronic should give an extra 20 - 30% charge this time of year as well, but remember it has to be mounted within 1 metre of the Hab batteries.

With the Sargent EC500, I would suggest you go straight to the batteries, but you can't do this with all Sargent units. The EC325 and EC328 must have nothing connected directly to the battery, but EC500 ok.

The Votronic is one of the new breed that is unlikley to 'fry' the batteries with too high a Float/maintenance voltage as it drops to 13.4v, lower than the normal Solar's 13.8 - 14.2v.

.

If you are referring to the vanbitz battery master ? You are completely incorrect. I would read the literature.
Units like the CBE CSB2 work in the manner you describe as well as a sterling battery maintainer

 

[Techno]

Quote
When the voltage in your vehicle leisure battery is significantly higher than the engine battery, the Battery Master will allow a controlled transfer of current:

This is usually half a volt @eddievanbitz

 

[eddie]

Spanner, Jeport obviously knows his stuff so take his idea.
Suggest you don't fit a battery master style device, they were ok 10 years ago when there was no other option, but there are now much better and cheaper ways of doing it.
The battery master info says they only start to steal Habitation battery power when the habitation voltage goes above 13.6v.

Really?

Where?

Shouldn't you be following the TRADER RULES? when giving advice, even incorrect advice?

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[eddie]

Quote
When the voltage in your vehicle leisure battery is significantly higher than the engine battery, the Battery Master will allow a controlled transfer of current:

This is usually half a volt @eddievanbitz

Thanks Andy, it is 0.75VDC

 

[PhilandMena]

I too have the Sargent system (EC500 PSU) and the factory fitted Sargent Solar Panel controller. In your position I would go ahead and add another 100 W S.P. (ideally , your S.P. should be identical in size) However, you will get away with a small variation between the two)). The Sargent controller will handle up to 10 Amps so 180 W will be fine. Also, my system charges both leisure and cab batteries (2011) from the S.P.and I suspect your's will too. This will be the simplest and cheapest method for your application.

 

[EssexBoy]

Therefore whether you want it to or not, it will start taking power for the Starter battery when you actually want every milliamp to go to the Habitation battery for maximum effect

Is that true? I thought the whole point of a battery master was to keep the most important battery (the engine battery) fully charged. After all, you're going nowhere with a flat engine battery and once the engine is started, surely it charges all batteries?

 

[aandncaravan]

My point was about the type of device, not a particular product, that they trigger not at the battery voltage, but the voltage at the battery, whether it is a voltage point or a voltage difference, they don't work as most people think. I said :
"But in reality as soon as any charging system starts charging the habitation battery, that will be the voltage at the battery terminals, so the trigger voltage will be 'seen' by the Battery master".

A battery theft device that starts passing current at a trigger voltage will do so when it 'sees' that trigger voltage at the battery terminals to which it is connected.
So even if the habitation battery is at 10v, if 14v is applied by any charger to the habitation battery terminals, the Battery theft device that uses a voltage trigger will starting stealing current when you may not want it to.
The description in most of the brochures talks about, "the battery voltage", but it is not always. That was the point I was making, the current doesn't always go where you would like it to.

The fact that some battery theft devices use a voltage threshold of differing voltage makes no odds, it will trigger when charging takes place as none of them can 'see' a batteries true voltage, only the voltage at the battery.

If the Starter battery is at 12.7v, and the habitation battery gets a 14.4v charge the theft device will trigger whether you want it to or not, regardless of it's trigger mechanism. Maybe not what you want if the actual Habitation battery voltage is 10v and you want to maximise everything to the Habitation battery.


Try it : run your battery down to 12.3v, put on a voltmeter and then put on the charger and watch the battery go up to 14.4v. Then try and use the multimeter to 'see' the batteries true 12.3v?
A higher voltage will 'swamp' a lower voltage so that all you can sample is the voltage at the terminals, which will be the charge voltage.


A duo battery Solar controller can accurately deliver the optimum charge to each battery and you won't end up with the situation where one battery is 0.75v more discharged than the other. There will also be lower losses.
It is a much more efficient process where BOTH batteries get the optimum and not one potentially 0.75v more discharged than the other. The charging priority is decided by charger, not two places.


Don't forget that any device that is actively 'watching' two battery voltages will be taking power from BOTH batteries. It may not be much a day, but over 6 months it will be.
This one fact makes them less efficient than a single Solar controller solution, and that was the point I made they are not now the most efficient way of getting Solar to the Starter battery.
But the standby current draw aside, every charger absorbs some of the energy to pass that power. I don't know how much is lost in the charge process, but it won't be 100%, so a 'double loss'.

When every tiny bit of power is important with Solar charging, to have something drawing off power unnecessarily, just doesn't make sense to me?


Philandmena, your option would be cheaper initially but not as efficient, so more expensive in the long term.
If he opts for a MPPT, it is the same as fitting a 25% bigger Solar Panel.
If he then later fits a second panel he can do so without the cost of a second Solar Charger.
Bypassing the Sargent, which can be located a fair way from the batteries often using thin gauge cable, will probably gain him another few tenths of a volt, which on a Winters day can make a difference.


.

 

[Spanner]

I too have the Sargent system (EC500 PSU) and the factory fitted Sargent Solar Panel controller. In your position I would go ahead and add another 100 W S.P. (ideally , your S.P. should be identical in size) However, you will get away with a small variation between the two)). The Sargent controller will handle up to 10 Amps so 180 W will be fine. Also, my system charges both leisure and cab batteries (2011) from the S.P.and I suspect your's will too. This will be the simplest and cheapest method for your application.

In theory doesn't a 180 watt panel equate to 15 amps ? and on a very good sunny day there is a good possibility that it could actually exceed the 10 amp limit of the EC500. When I spoke to Sargeant last week I was told that there was no possibility to exceed the 120 watt panel limit nor could they offer a modification and exceeding the limit would damage the inbuilt "Polyfuse"
It would be ideal to use the original method especially as you can read the solar charge and battery voltages through the fitted Sargeant EC480 display.
Yesterday at 11am it was very sunny and the display showed 1.5 amps of solar charge but by 1.30pm only 0.3 amps.
The Seargeant system draws at least 0.25 amp in standby 24/7 and If I switch off the EC500 the default is that the solar only charges the leisure batteries.
Obviously I need a larger solar panel.

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[Techno]

Yes I understand your point but it is incorrect to speak of a battery master as a generic term and claim to have read the instructions

 

[funflair]

BUT with a battery bank voltage of 10v as example above and a charger voltage of say 14v, will the battery terminal voltage really be 14v? I can't see it personally, certainly our battery volts readout will increase with either state of charge of the batteries or with the current supplied.

Martin

 

[PhilandMena]

In theory, you are correct ! 180/12= 15. So 15 Amps going to the controller and it becomes overloaded.
I have a high quality German 125 W S.P. on my roof and have overwintered in Morocco the last two years and this year travelled 1000 miles south of Tangier and experienced some wonderful weather on some very bright days. The most I ever received from my S.P. according to the Sargent control panel readout was 4.8 Amps. On good days in Europe, including the UK the best I get is around 4.5 Amps. So, in practise if I was to fit two of these giving a total of 250W, I would in practise get just under 10 Amps in optimum conditions.
May I suggest, you talk to Sargent again and suggest connecting up a 200W S.P. on the basis of the above and see how they react.
In my case, I got round this concern by buying this and attaching it directly to one set of Leisure batteries with snap connectors and I now have more than enough solar power to meet my needs.
https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en...ny-other-12V-system---German-solar-cells.html

I also fitted this and very pleased with it.
http://www.nasamarine.com/product/bm-1-bluetooth/

 

[eddie]

I designed Battery Master to ensure that the crucial battery, the engine battery has the best chance of surviving through the long Winter months when the motorhome, which is designed on a commercial chassis and intended to be stop - start everyday ends up being layed up for weeks on end.

Battery Master will, trickle charge the engine battery when is see's 0.7VDC more in the leisure battery(s) than the voltage in the engine battery. Whether this is due to the motorhome being plugged into the mains and the on board charger charging the leisure battery(s) or the sun coming out and charging the leisure battery(s) or over a period of weeks the quiescent drain by things like the clock, the radio memory, tracking systems, alarm systems, ECU taking the engine battery voltage down, below a 0.7 threshold

Under normal circumstances the engine battery shouldn't be an issue from day to day. It should only need a trickle charge when left unattended over longer periods. If anyone's engine battery needs a significant charge after a few days they have a major issue.

So lets look at this in a practical way. In the Summer, say July, your 12 volt habitation use in minimal in comparison to the same in say February. Your up and it is sunny and warm, your outside most of the day and your unlikely to sit inside the motorhome with lights on, heating on watching TV Your also unlikely to need to put the lights on until well into the evening. Wandering across the grass to the shower block isn't a problem neither is using their facilities, it warm and dry.

This being the case your leisure batteries are unlikely to need anything as you've used bugger all, so by the time you wake up the solar panel has been working for two or three hours and your back to normal. Nothing significant has happened to the engine battery, engine off, only a quiescent drain, so again, everything is happy.

Use and replenish courtesy of the Sun.

Now I will use me as an example. I have three 150w panels on the roof of my motorhome. I have 6 x 135 Ah batteries and two engine batteries. I have a 100amp multistage Mass Combi Inverter/charger, a 6Kw built in genny and my alternator will charge on the road 150 -180 amps according to the on board battery management system.

If I go to my mates in the Summer I never bother to plug in to hook up, I don't need it. If I phone a site and they offer me a grass pitch in the rally field as they are fully booked, without hook up, no problem, I don't need it. My inverter easily replaces the need for hook up. This is true, in the main, for the second half of Spring, the Summer and the first half of the Autumn

The rest of the time, if there is hook up available? I'll use it. I am going to Dublin for Christmas and New Year, I have booked a site that has hard standings, fully serviced with 16 amp mains hook up. The point is that solar activity in the Winter is little more than a maintenance charge. This a time where my 12 volt use is diametrically opposite to the example I gave above in July

Its dark and cold when I wake up, heating and lights straight on. TV on to see what is happening in the World and get the weather forecast, Bugger walking across to the facilities, its cold, its dark, and the facilities are wet underfoot and the water is cold! So showering in the van it is, so all the extractors go on as it is getting misty, and the kettle and cooking breakfast isn't helping anyway. In short, at a time when you 12 volt requirement is at its highest, your solar charge is at its absolute lowest, the most ineffective it will ever be.

Consequently the majority of people when using their motorhomes in the Winter for more than a couple of days will prefer hook up.

Consequently we suggest that as in the Spring/Summer/early Autumn scenario, "Use and replenish" The Winter should be considered in my opinion "maintenance charge" Leaving your motorhome, say in storage with a solar panel installed either dual reg or Battery Master route doesn't really matter so long as both leisure and engine batteries are maintained and not allowed to go flat. If your achieving this? your fine

 

[Zigisla]

So @eddievanbitz , I do need a B2B for Winter use then

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[Spanner]

If I replace the 80 watt panel with a 100/120 watt panel or connect the two panels to a single Victron 75/10 the Victron will limit any excess current to10 amps which is plenty, that way all batteries are charged intelligently and the EC500 is protected

I know it's ideal to have both panels equal output but the roof space is tight and what's the worst case with mismatched panels ?

 

[eddie]

So @eddievanbitz , I do need a B2B for Winter use then

Nope, just a decent campsite!

 

[eddie]

If I replace the 80 watt panel with a 100/120 watt panel or connect the two panels to a single Victron 75/10 the Victron will limit any excess current to10 amps which is plenty, that way all batteries are charged intelligently and the EC500 is protected

I know it's ideal to have both panels equal output but the roof space is tight and what's the worst case with mismatched panels ?

Have a look inside the EC500 panel and look at the C1210 aftermarket regulator and the gauge of the connecting wire!

Victron every time.

 

[Spanner]

Have a look inside the EC500 panel and look at the C1210 aftermarket regulator and the gauge of the connecting wire!

Victron every time.

I totally agree with using a decent MPPT controller instead of the C1210 and although only 18 inches long the wires are too thin.
However the new controller would be connected with heavier cable.
The leisure batteries are within a metre of the controller and the EC500.

What am I looking for inside the EC500 ?

 

[eddie]

I totally agree with using a decent MPPT controller instead of the C1210 and although only 18 inches long the wires are too thin.
However the new controller would be connected with heavier cable.
The leisure batteries are within a metre of the controller and the EC500.

What am I looking for inside the EC500 ?

Have a peek inside at the after market regulator (C1210) inside the box. We refuse to connect anything to it

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[vin0114]

Is that true? I thought the whole point of a battery master was to keep the most important battery (the engine battery) fully charged. After all, you're going nowhere with a flat engine battery and once the engine is started, surely it charges all batteries?

Exactly my thoughts, my battery master is a godsend.

 

[Spanner]

Have a peek inside at the after market regulator (C1210) inside the box. We refuse to connect anything to it

Ours is external, just plugged into the rear of the EC500

Have a peek inside at the after market regulator (C1210) inside the box. We refuse to connect anything to it

 

[eddie]

Ours is external, just plugged into the rear of the EC500

Inside the EC500 there is a C1210 aftermarket regulator, which your connecting to when you plug your solar panel into the rear of the EC500

 

[eddie]

Exactly my thoughts, my battery master is a godsend.

Some people in the trade come on these threads, as "members" despite the rules and make sweeping, incorrect statements, one can only assume for an ulterior motive

 

[Spanner]

Inside the EC500 there is a C1210 aftermarket regulator, which your connecting to when you plug your solar panel into the rear of the EC500

Having just spoken to Sergeant technical they told me some EC500 have the C1210 mounted on a bracket inside others like ours is outside as I can see very easily

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