Why do coal mines always have two ......

[Spriddler]

........winding wheels at the pithead, but always rotating in opposite directions to each other?
I assume one is a personnel lift to raise and lower the miners.
If the other one is to raise and lower the coal tubs why does it turn in the opposite direction to the personnel lift wheel?
I've Googled for ages and still can't find an answer and it's nagging at me. All the mining museums are Covid shut so I can't visit or phone to find out.
Are there any mining engineers or mining historians on Fun?

 

[Tombola]

Good question? I live right near and had family at a pit opposite me and it never occured to me.
maybe its a centrifugal thing to "balance" the stress

 

[Steve and Denise]

Two cages wind from the same drum one up one down ?

 

[pappajohn]

Don't know but it could be to speed up the load/unload time. One at pit bottom being loaded while the other is pit head being unloaded.
It may be the way the winding drum gearbox works.... A bit like a differential, if jacked up one wheel will turn clockwise, the other anticlockwise. Substitute wheels for drums.

When I worked at Boulby potash mine in 1980 they had two seperate shafts.
One for people and working materials (machinary and conveyer belts etc.
the other for potash.

 

[Podney]

Don’t know. Ask Fred Dibnah. Oh no he’s dead,ask a miner.

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[Tombola]

Dibnah was a mate of my Dads from teenage years (scrap man) I remember going his place a few times as a kid and meeting him at various steam rallies etc. (pubs and beer tents mostly) me dad said he was tight as cramp.

I think he had a working model in his yard when he got round to finishing it years later (if he did finish it)

 

[Spriddler]

Don’t know. Ask Fred Dibnah. Oh no he’s dead,ask a miner.

It's watching his series on T.V. that has rekindled my interest.
I doubt that miners would know or have ever asked.

Hearing that the rate of Covid infection is about 1 in 450 I pondered the chances of catching it from a supermarket trolley handle so when I was there today I asked Customer Services how many people go through the store every day on average. The staff didn't know that either and I asked them to find out for my next visit.
(Lockdown fever does strange things to the brain).

 

[Tombola]

I think your answer is like steve and denise said, 2 cable runs operating from one drum, 1 up 1 down, makes Physics and cost/engineering sense

BBC - History - British History in depth: Winding Gear Animation

Inside this mechanism of the industrial age

www.bbc.co.uk

Like a v twin engine

 

[Garratt]

Spriddler your question interested me to the point that I searched on the internet. The answer is surprising - see the cut and paste below:-

Single shaft coal mines were outlawed by Act of Parliament in 1862 as a direct result of the Hartley Colliery disaster in which two-hundred-and-four men and boys lost their lives. The accident was caused when the cast iron beam of the steam engine split in two, sending tons of debris down the pit shaft. The shaft at Hartley Colliery was divided by a wooden ‘brattice’ – a fairly inefficient ventilation system designed to allow fresh air to pass down one side, returning foul air up the other. At Hartley Colliery, the brattice collapsed into the mine when the beam engine broke. ‘There was no way these men could survive, until they could move all the debris from the shaft, which they tried. But by the time they got down there, they had all suffocated. No air!’ (Bradley, 2013).

The new legislation compelled colliery owners to sink two shafts instead of one, so that in the event of a similar accident, the miners would have a means of escape. Tandem headstocks made from pitched pine, like the ones preserved at Brinsley are typical of the period and clearly illustrate the move towards twin shafts. This configuration also brought improved ventilation; with fresh air passing down one shaft and contaminated air being expelled through the other. This meant that miners could dig deeper and further underground. Tandem headstocks were also developed at Babbington, Cinderhill, High Park (Eastwood), Watnall and Hucknall collieries.

So basically, you have one winding wheel per shaft, as there has to be two shafts by law!

 

[Steve and Denise]

If you look at the cables coming to the pit head you will clearly see one cable from the top of the drum and one from the bottom of the drum hence the opposit direction.

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[Steve and Pam]

one cage / skip going up the other going down to balance the the load on the same drum, some have a balance rope ( a "U" of rope attached to the bottom of the the skips / cages) to counter the weight of the the the main winding rope so the winding engine only has to power the. out of balance load

 

[Tombola]

Spriddler your question interested me to the point that I searched on the internet. The answer is surprising - see the cut and paste below:-


So basically, you have one winding wheel per shaft, as there has to be two shafts by law!

Interesting thanks but the original question still remains.

 

[lunarman]

The answer may be in here Mine Headstocks

From a quick read twin headstocks were developed because single shift mines were outlawed after an accident that killed 200+ workers and each mine had to have 2 shafts so that in the event of a repeat there was an escape route.

 

[Zains Pops]

One up one down to counter balance the lift. That's my guess, saves energy, not lifting a dead load, only the difference in weight. I also think they used the same lifts for men, materials and goods, not all at the same time and some lift cages were double deckers so as to move the maximum on each movement and keep the saft as small a cross section as possible.

 

[Landy Andy]

Is this the answer.

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[Garratt]

Deleted

 

[Landy Andy]

Loads more info than I can manage at this time of night here

http://mech-ing.com/journal/Archive/2012/12/199_Gerdemeli.pdf

 

[Steve and Denise]

I was trying to find a illustration to explain this , that’s exactly how this works usually a cage on each end as the pit is never empty one shift out one shift in Is this the answer. View attachment 471874

Is this the answer. View attachment 471874

 

[grasscutter]

There are two shafts in a coal mine. Upcast and Downcast.
One is open to the elements the other is boxed in ( the upcast).
Contrary to what people think air is not blown down a coal mine.
It is sucked out on the upcast shaft.
Each shaft has two opposing skips/ or cages.
Manriding in one shaft and coal extraction in the other.
When one cage or skip is at the top of the shaft the other is at the bottom.
The winder has two sides to the drum so as one side is lowering the other is retrieving hence the opposite directions.
Once upon a time before gardening I used to inspect the shafts at pits when we had a coal industry.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Believe it or not there is a painted line on the side of the drum tells the winch man when to stop winding ie when the cage is at loading hight.
The man riding cage travels a lot slower than the tub cage that one would give you the butterflies going down

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[LARRY99]

One up one down to counter balance the lift.

that’s correct, the cages as they were known would be double or triple deck , one above each other , the men all went down the pit in the morning in these cages at a set speed
then coaling began the cages were lifted at a far greater speed
all supplies to the underground were also sent down in the cages wood props ,steel rings ,machinery etc all went down the pit in these cages
the pit head and the pit bottom were all designed on a slight slope , so that when a cage arrived the empty trucks (drams ) pushed out the full ones at the pit head and vice versa at the pit bottom

 

[Tombola]

There are two shafts in a coal mine. Upcast and Downcast.
One is open to the elements the other is boxed in ( the upcast).
Contrary to what people think air is not blown down a coal mine.
It is sucked out on the upcast shaft.
Each shaft has two opposing skips/ or cages.
Manriding in one shaft and coal extraction in the other.
When one cage or skip is at the top of the shaft the other is at the bottom.
The winder has two sides to the drum so as one side is lowering the other is retrieving hence the opposite directions.
Once upon a time before gardening I used to inspect the shafts at pits when we had a coal industry.
View attachment 471876View attachment 471877

Make a good conversion that one Grasscutter

 

[LARRY99]

If anybody is coming to wales from Abergavenny to Swansea (the heads of the valley road) then there is Free museum mine where the ex miners will take you down underground on a tour and show you how a mine worked
the museum is called BIG PIT, and is located at brynmawr ,it’s sign posted off the heads of the valley road
my farther went down the local mine at the age of 14 and worked there all his life becoming head mechanic before they closed the mines
he took me down the pit many times on the week ends when it was not Working

Homepage | Amgueddfa Cymru

Amgueddfa Cymru is a family of seven museums located throughout Wales.

www.museumwales.ac.uk

 

[carthorse]

There's also for anyone interested in our industrial past the National coal mining museum at the old Caphouse colliery in Wakefield.
I worked for 14 years down the pit and took the grandkids to visit (pre covid) and they couldn't believe men and ponies worked in such confined conditions, well worth a visit if your in the area.

https://www.ncm.org.uk

 

[Shrimp]

Never entered my head.....being a female, but once the OP asked the question I did wonder, now I know, hope it comes up in a quiz somewhere!

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[rb62]

that’s correct, the cages as they were known would be double or triple deck , one above each other , the men all went down the pit in the morning in these cages at a set speed
then coaling began the cages were lifted at a far greater speed
all supplies to the underground were also sent down in the cages wood props ,steel rings ,machinery etc all went down the pit in these cages
the pit head and the pit bottom were all designed on a slight slope , so that when a cage arrived the empty trucks (drams ) pushed out the full ones at the pit head and vice versa at the pit bottomView attachment 471878

I was watching a programme about Fred Dibnah yesterday and his trips down the mines and was amazed when they said that once the coaling started it came up the shafts at 57mph!

 

[63720]

2 cages, one for the men and another for the canaries

 

[WynandJean]

If anybody is coming to wales from Abergavenny to Swansea (the heads of the valley road) then there is Free museum mine where the ex miners will take you down underground on a tour and show you how a mine worked
the museum is called BIG PIT, and is located at brynmawr ,it’s sign posted off the heads of the valley road
my farther went down the local mine at the age of 14 and worked there all his life becoming head mechanic before they closed the mines
he took me down the pit many times on the week ends when it was not Working

Homepage | Amgueddfa Cymru

Amgueddfa Cymru is a family of seven museums located throughout Wales.

www.museumwales.ac.uk

Went there a while back (when you could still go places, remember that?) It was an excellent day out - it's free as well!

Wyn

 

[PhilMary]

There's also for anyone interested in our industrial past the National coal mining museum at the old Caphouse colliery in Wakefield.
I worked for 14 years down the pit and took the grandkids to visit (pre covid) and they couldn't believe men and ponies worked in such confined conditions, well worth a visit if your in the area.

https://www.ncm.org.uk

Just as an aside. A mention for my friend who is Poet in Residence at the National Coal Mining Museum. His work is well worth reading.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

I remember my dad, who was a surface worker not a miner, had to go down the pit to do some maintenance work. This was at the weekend and other work was going on including brake testing the winder. Unbeknown to the man doing the winding my dad was in the cage when he decided to drop it before bringing it to an emergency stop. Needless to say it brought him to his knees and he said that in the seconds before it stopped he thought the winder had failed and he was going all the way to the bottom. This was just after the accident at Markham Main where the winder failed and the man riding cage accelerated up the shaft emerging through the top killing a lot of men.
Mines were all different depending on the strata they were mining. High Moor Colliery near here had seams that were only about 18" deep whereas others had seams over 10ft high. Some of the pits were connected underground. My grandad was down one pit in Rotherham when there was a roof fall and he had to come out of the neighbouring pit.
Harworth Colliery had special refrigerators at the pit bottom bottom to provide the men with chilled water because of the excessive heat. What you have to bear in mind that towards the end of mining the face machines were 1000hp generating a lot of heat which could only be dissipated with the air flow round roadways and up the shaft.

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