What's the max train weight for a car on an 'A' frame? (1 Viewer)

[Realist]

Hi all,

Just clarification needed just in case I’ve missed summit.

MoHo is weighed at 4005KG
Car going on A frame is 1554KG
MoHo is Fiat Ducato Autocruise Star Blazer XL 3.0L

No info on towing capacity on V5 so plate says as below.

So is it ok to tow the above?

Owe I have a C and C1 categories before anyone asks.

Ps,
Post the plate up ASAP just waiting on the post man don’t want to miss him lol.

 

[TonyEmm]

It’s a while since I’ve used a Reich but IIRC, the idea was to weigh each wheel separately, but doing one axle, (Rather than one side) to get the axle weight. Adding the 2nd axle weight obviously gives the ‘kerbweight’. The total would still be 3589kg.
Deduct the 3589kg from 4005kg and you have a further 416kg payload. As you have a towing limit of 1495kg (fully laden), you could add the extra 416kg to your towing limit, provided you don’t increase the kerbweight. On that basis, You have a potential 1911kg towing limit.

 

[eddie]

A frames are illegal anyway

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[Pausim]

Just as well the DfT doesn’t agree.

“When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).”

 

[PeteH]

"A" frames. (Popcorn and Tin Hat ) the issue is/will always be compliance with the braking. And the ability to Reverse due to the "castor effect" and without exiting the vehicle to "set" a reversing device. So far the "Authorities" have declined to take a case forward to a Court. So unless or until, the "grey" area remains and works to the advantage of us all.

Many years ago a case was taken to court, over "Dollys" and was lost, for any other purpose than genuine Vehicle recovery.

Either way having done "A" framing (and used a Dolly) here and in the USA, my personal view is that the Europeans are wrong, and the USA has it right.

 

[TonyEmm]

Just as well the DfT doesn’t agree.

“When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).”

Who says the DfT don’t agree? There is no argument that if you put an ‘A’ frame on a car it is classed as a trailer or indeed, if you put a car on a ‘dolly’ it is classed as two trailers.

are you a politician? You have been selective with the truth!

what you have quoted there is an extract of the regulations that need to be complied with, not all of them! You should read EC71/320. This covers auto reverse braking systems. In the C&U regs it’s clear that trailers have to comply with EC71/320 as well as other regulations.

If a trailer is fitted with brakes, they have to work. They also have to comply with EC71/320. That means they have to be ‘auto-reverse’. The braked coupling fitted to ‘A’ frames may be designed with auto-reverse in mind but to work, it needs to be combined with an auto-reverse mechanism in the brake drums. NO car has this arrangement.

Trailer brakes need to meet a required braking efficiency. The car uses A servo to achieve the necessary braking efficiency. However, when on an ‘A’ frame, the servo is non-operational Unless the engine is running! Brakes that require servos, when used without them, don’t even get close to meeting the regs.
Try steering or braking your regular car with the engine switched off.......

Then there is the issue of type approval. NO ‘A’ frame is type approved. Why? Quite simply because the car Does not have approved mounting points for an ‘A’ frame, unlike a towbar at the other End!

’A’ frame manufacturers will either use towing eyes (not designed for towing at 60mph or for regular use) or they will fit some strut or other between the ‘chassis’ legs. These will affect the Car’s crumple zone.

So there are legal arguments, practical arguments and safety arguments. The fact that ‘DfT’ or VOSA’ backed up by the police choose not to enforce the regulations doesn't automatically make them legal!

Even the ‘A’ frame manufacturers have caveats in their FAQ’s about towing on the continent......

Just my 2 penn’orth!

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[TonyEmm]

"A" frames. (Popcorn and Tin Hat ) the issue is/will always be compliance with the braking. And the ability to Reverse due to the "castor effect" and without exiting the vehicle to "set" a reversing device. So far the "Authorities" have declined to take a case forward to a Court. So unless or until, the "grey" area remains and works to the advantage of us all.

Many years ago a case was taken to court, over "Dollys" and was lost, for any other purpose than genuine Vehicle recovery.

Either way having done "A" framing (and used a Dolly) here and in the USA, my personal view is that the Europeans are wrong, and the USA has it right.

What are the details of the case You say was lost many years ago? On dollies, the law is very clear. A car on a dolly is classed as 2 trailers. This configuration is only allowed in agriculture, by showmen, and by licensed recovery operators towing a car to a place of safety. There is a maximum speed limit of 40mph on U.K. roads whether it be single carriageway, dual carriageway or motorway.

There are indeed reversing issues when towing vehicles. It takes a special skill to reverse around corners When the ’trailer’ has a steerable front axle, be it drawbar or ‘Ackerman’ steering. With regard to the ‘auto-reverse’ issue, see my reply to Pausim....

 

[eddie]

So does a car have to be MOT’d, have insurance and road fund licence when it’s used as a trailer?

Presumably not, as a trailer doesn’t need tax, insurance or an MOT

 

[TonyEmm]

So does a car have to be MOT’d, have insurance and road fund licence when it’s used as a trailer?

Presumably not, as a trailer doesn’t need tax, insurance or an MOT

Now that I can’t tell you! .
There is no legal requirement for a trailer (in the U.K.) to have separate insurance. It will be covered on the driver’s existing insurance (but 1/3rd party only) and provided he‘s informed the insurance company he is towing.
it’s certainly different on the continent. In France, for instance, a cat02 (braked) trailer over 750kg gross has to be licensed separately , with it’s own registration and number plate......

But why would you use a car purely as a trailer? That’s a slightly odd concept!

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[Pausim]

Who says the DfT don’t agree? There is no argument that if you put an ‘A’ frame on a car it is classed as a trailer or indeed, if you put a car on a ‘dolly’ it is classed as two trailers.

are you a politician? You have been selective with the truth!

what you have quoted there is an extract of the regulations that need to be complied with, not all of them! You should read EC71/320. This covers auto reverse braking systems. In the C&U regs it’s clear that trailers have to comply with EC71/320 as well as other regulations.

If a trailer is fitted with brakes, they have to work. They also have to comply with EC71/320. That means they have to be ‘auto-reverse’. The braked coupling fitted to ‘A’ frames may be designed with auto-reverse in mind but to work, it needs to be combined with an auto-reverse mechanism in the brake drums. NO car has this arrangement.

Trailer brakes need to meet a required braking efficiency. The car uses A servo to achieve the necessary braking efficiency. However, when on an ‘A’ frame, the servo is non-operational Unless the engine is running! Brakes that require servos, when used without them, don’t even get close to meeting the regs.
Try steering or braking your regular car with the engine switched off.......

Then there is the issue of type approval. NO ‘A’ frame is type approved. Why? Quite simply because the car Does not have approved mounting points for an ‘A’ frame, unlike a towbar at the other End!

’A’ frame manufacturers will either use towing eyes (not designed for towing at 60mph or for regular use) or they will fit some strut or other between the ‘chassis’ legs. These will affect the Car’s crumple zone.

So there are legal arguments, practical arguments and safety arguments. The fact that ‘DfT’ or VOSA’ backed up by the police choose not to enforce the regulations doesn't automatically make them legal!

Even the ‘A’ frame manufacturers have caveats in their FAQ’s about towing on the continent......

Just my 2 penn’orth!

I was only answering the basic point “A frames are illegal anyway” not the detail. I am not being selective with the truth I merely made a simple statement and evidenced it with a quote. If every statement on this forum was supported by a detailed explanation of every aspect of the subject it would be unreadable. It is up to individuals to comply with the legal requirements and I am not about to advise people on the law because I am not qualified to do so.

 

[eddie]

But why would you use a car purely as a trailer? That’s a slightly odd concept!

LOL No I‘m not suggesting that, more making the point that those that claim It’s legal using the DfT cleverly worded advice

As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain.

Misunderstand

I say cleverly worded “required to meet” when we all know that there is no way a car, with an A frame can meet these requirements.

I have a trailer, it’s braked and I can reverse it any where, it looks like a trailer, tows like a trailer, brakes like a trailer, reverses like a trailer.

I also have a Terios, bought as the manufacturer even has a section in the handbook about what to do when using the car as a “TOAD” as Terios as a little five four 4x4 is a popular tow car In the States.

It doesn’t meet the requirements of a trailer.

My point about tax etc is when someone tells me “legally it’s a trailer when the A Frame is on, wouldn’t preclude the need for an MOT, tax or insurance! Ergo, it remains a car legally.

 

[Realist]

Here we go again the bottom line is until legal authorities state in black and white they are illegal up until then we basic bods looking for easy transportation of there car will continue.

As far as I’m concerned I’ve checked weights what’s legal as per current law and I’m ok.

So some people don’t like them but for practicality I find them easier than a trailer (No place to store) wrap them up and put them in the boot, simples.

So until it’s written in law people can talk as much about them as they like.

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[Colintheolder]

Well, I was going to go for a MoHo & toad, but want to tour europe. when we were in EU, they were meant to allow this combination.
But the local Police dishing out fines say "no".
So I went with a 5th wheeler. Whole new bucket of worms regarding weights / electric brakes etc.
nb My train weight is 7000kg.
Been tour UK & Ireland for last 2 years with no problems from the law (famous last words). waiting For lock down to go & vanbiz.
Then off to Italy. Happy days

 

[eddie]

Here we go again the bottom line is until legal authorities state in black and white they are illegal up until then we basic bods looking for easy transportation of there car will continue.

As far as I’m concerned I’ve checked weights what’s legal as per current law and I’m ok.

So some people don’t like them but for practicality I find them easier than a trailer (No place to store) wrap them up and put them in the boot, simples.

So until it’s written in law people can talk as much about them as they like.

I didn't say that I didn't like them, I have a Terios bought with the sole intention of towing it. I know that it is illegal but until someone (else hopefully) gets done for it I will use it.

You can't reverse in the true sense of the word, the brakes don't work as they do when I am driving it, and I have a big chunk of metal welded across the sub frame behind the plastic bumper which makes the car out of conformity anyway.

I won't take it abroad I know of too many people that have been made to separate the vehicles and been fined, but anyway if I am going to tow abroad I would rather take this :

Which despite being a bit bigger than the car, can be reversed and does have braking efficiency as per the manufactures spec

The Terios behind the Minnie Winnie (two campers ago)

 

[Realist]

I think I’ll start fitting alarms lol.

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[sweetie]

Eddie fit alarms, he only draws the money now. But he does make a lovely cup of hot chocolate

 

[Realist]

If my plans work out he’ll be making me some on the 18th July.

 

[PeteH]

There you are? I did say tin hat and popcorn. This has been round the block so many times. It must be dizzy by now. Everyone is an expert. But so far to my knowledge no one has been pulled an prosecuted. I have been pulled in Spain, twice, for A frame use. I got away with it too. But that was over 10years ago

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[Realist]

Yeh don’t use an A frame overseas just the U.K. if I had the space for a trailer yes I would of had one but an A frame is the best next option.

 

[Realist]

Just out of finding out cos I got no idea what’s the difference between a Fiat X244, X250 and X290 And what’s mine above?

 

[TUCANO]

Looks to me that you have an X250

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[Realist]

Thanks bud.

 

[Emmit]

X244 finished production sometime around 2006 (not after) It has invariably, a 2.8 engine 5speed box.
Some 'lucky' peeps have one that was first reg. as late as Sept 2007.
The x250 superceded the x244. Initially it had a 2.3 engine and, on arrival was hit by problems of juddering when reversing, (particularly uphill) Worthy of checking if in the market for an early example.

 

[Realist]

Reason I asked was I’m looking for an under seat safe and a few listed 3x variations hence the question.

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[Realist]

Well ahhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[Realist]

Well update.

Used our MoHo with toad this weekend and when I got home and attempted to remove the A frame the bar that goes through the eye bolts and frame would not come out no way.

Had to hammer it out in the end and guess what, the bolts themselves are bent causing the alignment of the bar to be off so......

Is it a fault of the bolts themselves?
Is it a fault of the frame?
Not looked at the frame attached to the car as yet misses using it for work.

So I’m now not trusting Towtal A frame as I’m worried why did they bent, how it was straight when the frame was fitted for the home journey and I’ve used it three times before this was the 4th.

Emailed Towtall pictures with my concerns and so far no reply, just missed them by phone.

So now what?

 

[icantremember]

Well update.

Used our MoHo with toad this weekend and when I got home and attempted to remove the A frame the bar that goes through the eye bolts and frame would not come out no way.

Had to hammer it out in the end and guess what, the bolts themselves are bent causing the alignment of the bar to be off so......

Is it a fault of the bolts themselves?
Is it a fault of the frame?
Not looked at the frame attached to the car as yet misses using it for work.

So I’m now not trusting Towtal A frame as I’m worried why did they bent, how it was straight when the frame was fitted for the home journey and I’ve used it three times before this was the 4th.

Emailed Towtall pictures with my concerns and so far no reply, just missed them by phone.

So now what?

View attachment 418698View attachment 418699View attachment 418700

Have you dragged the toad round a very tight bend?

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[Realist]

No just normal driving conditions and a few hills.

If it was towed around tight bends it’s bent on the tow ball not the frame.

 

[Pausim]

A couple of observations.

Those eye bolts look very long and it appears that there is quite a distance between the part that screws into the car’s frame and the eye. That leaves quite a length of unsupported bolt, which is presumably where the bends are. My eye bolts are much shorter with very little exposed thread when in use. I am surprised that the additional cross member fitted to the car is not much nearer the front so that shorter eye bolts can screw directly into it.

Could the car’s steering have become locked at some point? Without the freedom to caster and follow the motorhome there would be enormous stresses on bends.

 

[olley]

As you have one bar which goes through both pins it's high unlikely that towing could cause a bend at the end of the pins.
Put the bar back through both and see if the threads are parallel with each other, the ends may look bent but the holes in them might be bored square to the shanks.

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[Realist]

They look long but screw a fair way in up to a bolt that I’ve removed and tighned down, it’s the actual hole bit on one that’s bent and stopped the bar from sliding out.

Normally it comes out sweet as a nut.

A couple of observations.

Those eye bolts look very long and it appears that there is quite a distance between the part that screws into the car’s frame and the eye. That leaves quite a length of unsupported bolt, which is presumably where the bends are. My eye bolts are much shorter with very little exposed thread when in use. I am surprised that the additional cross member fitted to the car is not much nearer the front so that shorter eye bolts can screw directly into it.

Could the car’s steering have become locked at some point? Without the freedom to caster and follow the motorhome there would be enormous stresses on bends.