Victron Orion Tr Smart -Too hot

[steveh57]

I fitted the Victron Orion tr Smart 12 12 30 a month or so ago. It's mounted in my service locker accessed from the outside of the vehicle, it's mounted vertically with sufficient space above and below as per install instructions. The cable sizes are the max for this charger at 16mm2.

I wish now I'd searched the Victron forums before I purchased this as I may have had second thoughts, there's a few threads about how hot this gets when charging , bearing in mind it derates by 3% for every centigrade degree above 40.

I checked the case temperature this morning after a 45 min drive by which time the bulk phase had completed and it was in absorption mode- 55 degrees Centrigrade!

Again this is not unusual looking on the Victron community forum

Just wondering whether I can improve matters or consign it to the bin. Presumably fitting a fan in that locker will aid airflow and hopefully allow it to run cooler , anything else I can do? It's mounted on a wood panel but what other choices do I have in a motorhome- is it worth placing a square of sheet metal between the heat sink and the wood panel I wonder?

 

[Gromett]

With 30A going through it I am not surprised that it gets a little toasty. That is a lot of current to handle.
I am not familiar with that product, but have used multiple victron products in the past. They are incredibly well engineered and specced so I doubt there is anything wrong or unusual about those temps.

That said, I am curious as to what is the temperature is in the locker itself? If the locker isn't too far above ambient temp then fans etc won't make much difference. If however the locker is getting very warm then maybe moving air out of it and getting some cooler air in will make the difference.

 

[steveh57]

Victron have admitted there was a heat issue with some early versions of these chargers and have offered a free exchange , sadly mine post dates this. I did wonder whether forcing air through the heat sink with the fan would improve the situation.

 

[Lenny HB]

Victron have admitted there was a heat issue with some early versions of these chargers and have offered a free exchange , sadly mine post dates this. I did wonder whether forcing air through the heat sink with the fan would improve the situation.

Could you mount it on a heat sink with fan cooling.

 

[steveh57]

Could you mount it on a heat sink with fan cooling.

Not sure , do mean add another heat sink and fan as for instance a cpu cooler

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[Gromett]

I am just curious about the locker now. You have stated you have left enough space around the unit. But is this a small locker or a large garage? Is it full of stuff leaving only a relatively small air volume free?

 

[Lenny HB]

Not sure , do mean add another heat sink and fan as for instance a cpu cooler

Yesa I meant another heat sink with say an 80 mm fan.

 

[Raul]

In a locker, it will never get enough cooling if you don’t vent the locker. The space around it is for natural convection, until air inside the locker is to hot to do any further cooling, even if you force it with a fan. You need to vent the locker, the radiator on that unit is very effective and it works. I have a 250/85 solar charge controller (similar physical size as the Orion 12/12-30) under the stairs with plenty of ventilation. At full chat 5kw of solar pushing 80A, it never gets above 36degC with 22-24 ambient in the house. Next to this I have a 5kw multiplus and two other chargers but slightly lower. The higher it is, the hotter it gets.
vent the locker, or change the location. Do not run it above the 40degC, it will have a short life.

 

[steveh57]

Hi Raul. The locker is ventilated ( perhaps not well enough), there is a grille in the base and vents to the interior as it also contains the Truma frost valve. The unit is tucked away so to speak at one end so maybe not in the the best place for airflow. You mention your controller but am I not correct in thinking that it is a very efficient device whereas the Orion DC DC charger is at best 87%- with an operating environment between -20 to 55C.
I'm not sure where else to move it to that would be better ventilated, hence the idea of increasing the airflow in that locker, if I could find a more conductive mounting surface it would also help.

 

[Raul]

In that case, I would:
- put a aluminium or lead plate behind it to dissipate heat fast from the radiator,these two metals transfer heat very very fast.
- insert a computer fan at the top of the locker to draw warm air out. That way, the warm air will be replaced by cooler air drawn in the locker by a low vent.

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[steveh57]

Thanks Raul.
Certainly not the only one with this issue, it will put out the full 30A until it gets hot, I only decided to look further when the charge current began to tail off in bulk mode to lithium, at least one bonus is I'm unlikely to have an issue with the Truma frost valve whilst moving

Orion DC-DC overheating - VictronEnergy

community.victronenergy.com

Orion TR Smart 12 12 30 - HOT - VictronEnergy

community.victronenergy.com

Edit: I've ordered some Aluminium sheet plate and I have a spare fan somewhere and I will report back.

 

[andy63]

You raise an interesting point about chargers and overheating..especially with the increasing move towards lithium and their ability to recharge so quickl..
I not so long ago bought a 20amp mains charger for my lithium.. the case was the heatsink and it came with a warning it would get hot...certainly as the weather warmed it was getting so hot that the thermal cut out often operated.. no scientific testing done but I just knew that at the temperature it was running at it would likely fail ..and it did..
A similar capacity charger by victron...one of their blue smart units gets warm but never as hot to the touch...
Neither unit employed a cooling fan as they are relatively low current devices in the scheme of things..but it does demonstrate that build quality and design is a factor with these things..
Andy..

 

[Gromett]

Hi Raul. The locker is ventilated ( perhaps not well enough), there is a grille in the base and vents to the interior as it also contains the Truma frost valve. The unit is tucked away so to speak at one end so maybe not in the the best place for airflow. You mention your controller but am I not correct in thinking that it is a very efficient device whereas the Orion DC DC charger is at best 87%- with an operating environment between -20 to 55C.
I'm not sure where else to move it to that would be better ventilated, hence the idea of increasing the airflow in that locker, if I could find a more conductive mounting surface it would also help.

I didn't realise the efficiency was that low. Some quick and rough calculations indicate this will put out this much heat.

12V x 30A = 360Watts. Of which 13% will be emitted as heat = 46.8 Watts. The orion is effectively a 50Watt heater in your locker so you need to have enough clear air to absorb this heat and a way to convect it out or a forced air system to do this. I suspect your locker will be getting very warm.

Edit: I've ordered some Aluminium sheet plate and I have a spare fan somewhere and I will report back.

Copper would be better. Aluminium only has 60% the thermal conductivity of aluminium.

I am not sure this would help your situation, all you are doing is adding some thermal mass not dealing with removing the heat. It will at best delay the onset of thermal throttling.

 

[Raul]

Aluminium and lead gives its heat away fast, copper absorbs it, but it also stores it. It does not give it away fast. Have you tried to weld lead or ally? Vs copper?

 

[steveh57]

I've always fancied a diesel heater

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[steveh57]

I think I've had some success in cooling this B2B down, bit of a faff and certainly over engineered on my behalf. I removed it and sandwiched a 300 x 200 sheet of aluminium between the heat sink and the wood wall of the locker- that improved matters from one test drive of dropping the case temperature down to 45C from 55C previously. I then added a 120mm PC fan in front but below , directing air through the heat shield and hopefully through a vent above., this on a test run today has brought the case temperature down to 40C with ambient at 22C. I didn't notice any de-rating during a 30 test run , the shunt was showing a 360w input i.e 14v x 26.

The over engineered bit was to add a 12v relay switched by D+ to allow the powering on of a temperature relay, so above 5C , the remote input to

the charger is switched on by a 12v feed and the fan is turned on.

 

[Guigsy]

I'm thinking of getting a lithium battery and I've got Victron gear, so I was considering the 30A Orion. I've got very limited space, so it's probably going to have to go under the driver's seat immediately in front of the battery. I've also read that the Orion only provides voltage through the VE.direct connection and app anyway... so would you still recommend the Victron gear above something else?

 

[davidroxburgh]

I went for a Votronic 1212-30 on account of size and fan rather than heat sink. It is being fitted next week when I shall discover if that was wise or not!

 

[Lenny HB]

I'm thinking of getting a lithium battery and I've got Victron gear, so I was considering the 30A Orion. I've got very limited space, so it's probably going to have to go under the driver's seat immediately in front of the battery. I've also read that the Orion only provides voltage through the VE.direct connection and app anyway... so would you still recommend the Victron gear above something else?

Have a look at the Votronic units they have a good reputation and I think they are fan cooled.

 

[Raul]

I think I've had some success in cooling this B2B down, bit of a faff and certainly over engineered on my behalf. I removed it and sandwiched a 300 x 200 sheet of aluminium between the heat sink and the wood wall of the locker- that improved matters from one test drive of dropping the case temperature down to 45C from 55C previously. I then added a 120mm PC fan in front but below , directing air through the heat shield and hopefully through a vent above., this on a test run today has brought the case temperature down to 40C with ambient at 22C. I didn't notice any de-rating during a 30 test run , the shunt was showing a 360w input i.e 14v x 26.

The over engineered bit was to add a 12v relay switched by D+ to allow the powering on of a temperature relay, so above 5C , the remote input to View attachment 528899the charger is switched on by a 12v feed and the fan is turned on.

Nice work, I think I’m suffering of the same overheating. My Orion was pushing 27-28a and after 1hr drive, I put my hand on it. It nearly burned me. Very hot. I haven’t got a great deal of space, so I either upgrade with a sterling 60a, or a heat sink and a fan.
I will have a look at Votronic since Lenny mentioned it. I prefer a B2B with fan built in, like the inverter charger.

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[steveh57]

Ambient temperatures for me have obviously fallen , but mine is not getting hot anymore the cooling additions seem to be working. I fitted another one in parallel with the same cooling methods but in a different location, that’s keeping cool as well . It may be a different story next summer when ambient temperatures are higher. The second Orion has an additional modification as I was concerned about alternator load with other auxiliaries being used. A voice activated remote switch “Ok Google turn off/on DC charger” seemed easier than running more cable to a switch accessible by the driver. Obviously I still have to remember to use it when required.

IRC the switch was made by eWelink, connects to 2.5Ghz Wifi and then controlled by the app on a phone connected to the same network.


Amazon product ASIN B07KMR9Q3D

 

[Just smiffy]

Go for Orion XS the 50A, even if you don’t need the full 50A you can set lower amps, running at very high efficiency. The older Orion 12-30 it gets hot, very hot at full potential.
The new Orion XS has VE direct port as well, you can integrate it properly with the rest of victron goodies.

Thought I’d put this here.

I’ve had a look into this Raul and yes there is a problem with the 30amp ones getting hot, my question is that I’m putting it in as my van is not currently charging my two exide Gel batteries and relies on 400w of solar through a victron mppt 100/30 to charge them.

would this Orion XS 50amp do the job or be overkill… I may go lithium in the future…

The reason I was going for the 30amp was the wiring will be smaller and easier to install myself..

 

[Raul]

Thought I’d put this here.

I’ve had a look into this Raul and yes there is a problem with the 30amp ones getting hot, my question is that I’m putting it in as my van is not currently charging my two exide Gel batteries and relies on 400w of solar through a victron mppt 100/30 to charge them.

would this Orion XS 50amp do the job or be overkill… I may go lithium in the future…

The reason I was going for the 30amp was the wiring will be smaller and easier to install myself..

To be fair, for what you got, you could use the 30A. However, the 50A XS it makes sense for future upgrades. It is a bit more pricy, but more versatile. You could use the wires you got, and throttle back the amps. I would buy used if you look up for sale one, many will shift the old one for the new one.
I’m switching mine in a couple of months, unless I find a cheap used second 30A.

 

[nabsim]

I have used the Votronic12 12 30 for over 3 years now, tiny compared to the Victron and never had a problem. Will sit pushing 30amp for hours if 8 drive long enough and battery’s will take it

 

[Raul]

I have used the Votronic12 12 30 for over 3 years now, tiny compared to the Victron and never had a problem. Will sit pushing 30amp for hours if 8 drive long enough and battery’s will take it

Votronic has a better efficiency on that one, the new converter victron built, the 50A it’s the size of a 15A solar charger almost. Much smaller than the old 30A b2b converter. And no heat sink on the new one, as there is not much heat.

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[Just smiffy]

Votronic has a better efficiency on that one, the new converter victron built, the 50A it’s the size of a 15A solar charger almost. Much smaller than the old 30A b2b converter. And no heat sink on the new one, as there is not much heat.

I’ll probably get one of these now….

 

[peterc10]

I’ll probably get one of these now….

View attachment 861553

That is what I fitted in 2022 and had no problems with it at all. Pumps in 30A with no fuss.

 

[jumar]

Because of the possibility of overheating and therefore causing a drop in performance, I fitted my Victron Orion on the outside of the seat box facing the living area. OK it can be seen... but not an issue for us...
On two occasions even in this position it overheated and the output dropped significantly....
We have a rechargeable freestanding fan that will sit on any surface, I used this to blast cool air at the Orion...this greatly cooled it and returned the output to its full potential..further possibilities need to be investigated prior to venturing off this summer...

 

[Gerry77]

I havent fitted my Orion 30A b2b yet but in anticipation have made up a couple of computer fans to cool down any heat generated. They are 60mm diam. x 30 wide.

 

[TerryL]

Thinking a bit sideways here, the heat is generated by the high rate of charge, yes? But surely after a while that rate of charge must drop, unless you've started from almost flat batteries or there is a high load on them, and then the heat should dissipate? Or am I misunderstanding something here as it seems to me the B2B is working inordinately hard.

I recently replaced an old Sterling B2B when it failed after years of faultless service with a Victron unit, can't remember but it's the smart 30amp one, no fan cooling. Just returned from Spain (another story) with an unknown to me failed leisure battery that was obviously being charged all the time and, yes the Victron got warm but never what I would call extremely hot. I've not had chance yet to test it out after I've replaced the dead battery but on initial startup it appeared to work as advertised and once finished bulk charging was barely even warm.

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