Typical power use.

[Raul]

A 10A breaker is supposed to be able to carry 10A 24/7 without tripping. It will only trip if the amps rises to above 10A, if there is a fault for example. So 7.5A for an appliance is fine.

With a 2000W inverter, chances are you would never trip a 10A breaker even if you tried, the inverter would probably cut off before the breaker tripped.

There is only one problem with the B10. The 2000W supply can't open it on a short fault. It will need 30A min short fault current to open it. Meaning, the 2000W supply is more likely to have a max surge of 4000W /17.4A short circuit fault amps. That puts you in the teritory of a B6 to be able to open it: 6x3=18A. For overload it may protect if it's a 2.5mm ², but for short, it won't open it, as the supply is to weak to generate/supply enough short current. Therefore a size down is preferred, to enable the magnetic trip operation. The thermal trip will work after several minutes, but the magnetic trip, it needs min 3x nominal, sometimes 5x nominal.

 

[headlight]

Had a look, fancy the 30A charger; but there's no mention on whether it's performance can be seen with the Fogstar app.
Would be nice if it could, or does the app see the battery and what's going into it ?

Yes the battery app will show what is going in to the battery.

 

[headlight]

Checked out the socket, it's an MK LNK 6233 which is double pole but have already fitted the black one as SWMBO was obeyed, it apparently stuck out like a sore thumb. Pic of new one below.
View attachment 1281930
Just had a thought.....appliances that we plug in will normally be on the countertop above the outlet.
Is there anything to say I can't have it upsidedown ?

I have mounted a double socket upside down for the very reason you say.

 

[Happy Jack]

I have mounted a double socket upside down for the very reason you say.

An update on my plans:-
Leaving the EHU/Consumer unit/charger circuit alone.
One of the circuit breakers supplies the charger and the other supplies a double socket outlet mounted directly below the CU.
(CU is under the fixed bed at the back)
It's worked fine that way for 5 years.
Battery will be Fogstar 300A, probably gen2.
Charger will be Fogstar 30A.
Inverter will be Sunshine solar 2000W.
The Inverter will be stand alone simply supplying the black socket outlet.
The only thing I need to decide on is how to do RCD protection if the inverter circuit.
Since most inverters have socket outlet to power the AC side would the RCD in the pic do the job, bearing in mind it will only supply the one double socket outlet.

 

[autorouter]

Inverter will be Sunshine solar 2000W.
The Inverter will be stand alone simply supplying the black socket outlet.
The only thing I need to decide on is how to do RCD protection if the inverter circuit.
Since most inverters have socket outlet to power the AC side would the RCD in the pic do the job, bearing in mind it will only supply the one double socket outlet.

For the 2000W inverter, you don't say if it's the modified sine wave or pure sine wave type, Sunshine solar do both types. The pure sine wave is more like a proper smooth house mains supply, and is better for anything with electronic controls and switches, so I would always choose the pure sine wave type.

The RCD in your picture would be OK. According to the web page, there is a switch somewhere on this inverter, to enable 'RCD Compatibility'. It enables a neutral-earth bond, which you may read about in other threads, which is required for an RCD to function correctly.

You can check the RCD operation with the socket tester I mentioned before, that has an 'RCD Test' function. It's not enough to simply press the Test button on the RCD itself. That only tests the trip mechanism, but doesn't check that the wiring (including the neutral-earth bond) is correct. For that you need the socket tester with the RCD Test function, plugged into one of those black sockets.

 

[stewartwebr]

This exact socket in the picture is not suitable, but similar ones are available which are suitable. There are a number of issues.

First, the switches on the sockets are single pole. These are fine for UK domestic circuits, but not suitable for motorhome circuits which should have either double pole switches or no switches at all.

Next, the type of RCD (active or passive) is important. A passive RCD will stay switched on if the power fails, then comes back on. Passive RCDs are used for fridges and freezers, to avoid having to switch all the RCDs back on every time you switch the inverter on, or disconnect and reconnect the hookup cable. You probably want a passive RCD for a motorhome. An active RCD switches off if the power fails, so is safer if powering machinery, to avoid unexpected restart of a machine if power resumes after a cut.

A Victron inverters like the 1200 has the AC output neutral connected to the case of the inverter. The case needs to be connected to the vehicle chassis and the earth terminal of the socket. That will allow the RCD to function correctly, improving protection for the user if multiple appliances are in use. This arrangement is different from many other brands of inverter, which usually have a floating neutral, not connected to the case or to the earth terminal.

It's a good idea to use a socket tester with an RCD Test function to test the socket once it is installed, to check that wiring has been done correctly and the RCD works OK. Note that pressing the RCD test button on the socket itself only tests the trip mechanism, not whether it has been wired correctly.

Interesting comment about the single pole switch on the socket. What exact issues would it create? Not that relevant to my question but none of my last 5 motorhomes had any switches on the 3 pin sockets

 

[autorouter]

Interesting comment about the single pole switch on the socket. What exact issues would it create? Not that relevant to my question but none of my last 5 motorhomes had any switches on the 3 pin sockets

See post #10. Unswitched sockets are OK, and so are sockets with double pole switches.

 

[Happy Jack]

For the 2000W inverter, you don't say if it's the modified sine wave or pure sine wave type, Sunshine solar do both types. The pure sine wave is more like a proper smooth house mains supply, and is better for anything with electronic controls and switches, so I would always choose the pure sine wave type.

The RCD in your picture would be OK. According to the web page, there is a switch somewhere on this inverter, to enable 'RCD Compatibility'. It enables a neutral-earth bond, which you may read about in other threads, which is required for an RCD to function correctly.

You can check the RCD operation with the socket tester I mentioned before, that has an 'RCD Test' function. It's not enough to simply press the Test button on the RCD itself. That only tests the trip mechanism, but doesn't check that the wiring (including the neutral-earth bond) is correct. For that you need the socket tester with the RCD Test function, plugged into one of those black sockets.

Sorry, it will be pure sine wave that I get.
My socket tester hasn't got RCD test function, ordered one from hebay after your post about them; should arrive soon.
Excuse my lack of knowledge, how do I achieve a neutral - earth bond; bearing in mind the inverter circuit will be from Leisure battery to Inverter via a switch then out of the inverter via the plug-in DVD then on to the only socket outlet.
My leasure side at the moment is isolated from the van side.
Thanks in advance.

 

[autorouter]

how do I achieve a neutral - earth bond; bearing in mind the inverter circuit will be from Leisure battery to Inverter via a switch then out of the inverter via the plug-in DVD then on to the only socket outlet.
My leasure side at the moment is isolated from the van side.

For the 12V circuits, the starter battery negative is connected to the vehicle chassis, as it is in all vehicles. The leisure battery is charged from the alternator, so its negative is also connected to the vehicle chassis.

For the 230V AC circuits, the vehicle chassis and all exposed metalwork (metal pipes etc) are bonded to the hookup inlet earth terminal. All this happens in any motorhome, even those with no inverter.

At the motorhome mains hookup inlet, the live, neutral and earth are all separate wires. However in the supply somewhere, maybe in the hookup post or some way before it, the earth and neutral are bonded together. This is true of all domestic and campsite mains supplies. This neutral-earth bond enables the RCD to work, to protect against earth leakage and electric shock.

So even though you might think that the habitation circuits and the base vehicle circuits are separated, they are all connected to the metal chassis and any exposed metalwork - even the hookup inlet.

An inverter normally has a floating live and neutral, which is safe if only one appliance is connected. When more than one appliance is connected, and/or there is any exposed metalwork, then a different approach is required. The neutral is bonded to the earth, chassis and any exposed metalwork, and an RCD is fitted. This is safe because it protects against electric shock.

Some inverters have a neutral-earth bond wired in permanently. Others have a neutral-earth bond that is switchable, or easily implemented, with a wire link for example. Others don't have any neutral-earth bond, and any such bond has to be implemented externally if you want one.

In your case, with the Sunshine Solar inverter, it has a switch somewhere to enable the neutral-earth bond. I haven't got the manual for this inverter, but it says there is a switch on the website. So all you have to do is switch it to enable the neutral-earth bond.

Plug in your RCD plug, and press the test button on that RCD. it should trip. But that test is not sufficient to check the wiring. So use the socket tester in one of the sockets fed by the RCD. When you press the 'RCD Test' button on the socket tester, the RCD should trip, which verifies that the RCD will protect against electric shock.

 

[Raul]

The RCD test button is only to proove functionality of the mechanical trip mechanism, not the electronics inside it. It trips upon pressing the buton if is energised, and even with missing earth path. The way the test button works is, it simulates an imbalance via the field trip coil. A socket tester with RCD test function, as autorouter sugested, it actualy simulates a line to earth fault downstream of the RCD. If there is no bond upstream of RCD, the socket tester will not trip, as its missing the second return path: the earth CPC, circuit protection conductor. That return path it's esential to carry the fault current, and create the imbalance between Line-Neutral, so the RCD will trip.

 

[Happy Jack]

For the 12V circuits, the starter battery negative is connected to the vehicle chassis, as it is in all vehicles. The leisure battery is charged from the alternator, so its negative is also connected to the vehicle chassis.

For the 230V AC circuits, the vehicle chassis and all exposed metalwork (metal pipes etc) are bonded to the hookup inlet earth terminal. All this happens in any motorhome, even those with no inverter.

At the motorhome mains hookup inlet, the live, neutral and earth are all separate wires. However in the supply somewhere, maybe in the hookup post or some way before it, the earth and neutral are bonded together. This is true of all domestic and campsite mains supplies. This neutral-earth bond enables the RCD to work, to protect against earth leakage and electric shock.

So even though you might think that the habitation circuits and the base vehicle circuits are separated, they are all connected to the metal chassis and any exposed metalwork - even the hookup inlet.

An inverter normally has a floating live and neutral, which is safe if only one appliance is connected. When more than one appliance is connected, and/or there is any exposed metalwork, then a different approach is required. The neutral is bonded to the earth, chassis and any exposed metalwork, and an RCD is fitted. This is safe because it protects against electric shock.

Some inverters have a neutral-earth bond wired in permanently. Others have a neutral-earth bond that is switchable, or easily implemented, with a wire link for example. Others don't have any neutral-earth bond, and any such bond has to be implemented externally if you want one.

In your case, with the Sunshine Solar inverter, it has a switch somewhere to enable the neutral-earth bond. I haven't got the manual for this inverter, but it says there is a switch on the website. So all you have to do is switch it to enable the neutral-earth bond.

Plug in your RCD plug, and press the test button on that RCD. it should trip. But that test is not sufficient to check the wiring. So use the socket tester in one of the sockets fed by the RCD. When you press the 'RCD Test' button on the socket tester, the RCD should trip, which verifies that the RCD will protect against electric shock.

At the moment (mine is a self build PVC) the van hasn't got leisure battery charging from the alternator, but it will soon.
Which means I'll have to earth the leisure battery to the vehicle chassis, and do I need to bond the hook up inlet earth terminal to the van chassis?
Does that mean when on EHU I havn't been safe.
The Inverter may have more than one appliance in use at the same time so I will have to enable the neutral-earth bond.
Will check the RCD from post# 64 to enable rcd compatability.
Getting the battery, charger and B2B in the next couple weeks so no real change except I will have to earth the leisure battery to the chassis by then.
Will be getting the inverter early December.
Plug in RCD tester arriving today.

 

[MisterB]

I'm sure the grown ups will be along soon to explain the technicalities BUT from my understanding when connected to EHU, you already have the N-G bond.
When not on EHU you need a N-G bond for some inverters
The N-G bond that you need to add, should ONLY operate when not on EHU. It must disconnect when connected to a EHU supply

I achieved that previously by using a relay that is energised when on EHU, so the 'bond' is not connected, but when not on EHU the relay closes and the bond is made.

A couple of the grown ups offered me some great advice and pointed me in the right direction, they know who they are !!

 

[Happy Jack]

I'm sure the grown ups will be along soon to explain the technicalities BUT from my understanding when connected to EHU, you already have the N-G bond.
When not on EHU you need a N-G bond for some inverters
The N-G bond that you need to add, should ONLY operate when not on EHU. It must disconnect when connected to a EHU supply

I achieved that previously by using a relay that is energised when on EHU, so the 'bond' is not connected, but when not on EHU the relay closes and the bond is made.

A couple of the grown ups offered me some great advice and pointed me in the right direction, they know who they are !!

Luckily, my EHU only supplies the battery charger and the Inverter will supply one double socket outlet only.

 

[Raul]

Luckily, my EHU only supplies the battery charger and the Inverter will supply one double socket outlet only.

But, your inverter and ehu are PE bonded to the chassis, therefore, when on ehu, your inverter bond needs to disappear (open): only one bond at a time from each source, and they never meet. Hence the N-PE bond on a inverter is usually done by a relay, when you have dual power supply.
When there is no ehu, only the inverter is the source, then a permanent bond in the inverter does work. But, it shouldn't be permanent if you alternate the supplies.

For anyone that whats to know, the mains supply is bonded at the supply substation transformer, the neutral is earthed, and only TN-C-S is separated as it enters your property before the main fuse. The others, TT, TNS are separated at the supply transformer and never meet again.

 

[autorouter]

I'm sure the grown ups will be along soon to explain the technicalities BUT from my understanding when connected to EHU, you already have the N-G bond.
When not on EHU you need a N-G bond for some inverters
The N-G bond that you need to add, should ONLY operate when not on EHU. It must disconnect when connected to a EHU supply

There are various configurations of inverter and EHU. It's a popular setup to have a transfer switch that switches some 13A sockets between the EHU and inverter. The transfer switch can be manual or automatic. Some inverters have a built-in transfer switch. The neutral-earth bonding needs careful consideration, and may or may not require a relay, depending on the exact configuration.

However the OP does not have a setup like that. The inverter and its sockets are separate from the EHU supply, and there is no transfer switch. In that case the inverter circuit, with its neutral-earth bond, will not interact with the EHU circuit anywhere. So it is OK to have a permanent neutral-earth bond in the inverter supply, and another neutral-earth bond in the hookup supply, at the same time.

 

[Happy Jack]

There are various configurations of inverter and EHU. It's a popular setup to have a transfer switch that switches some 13A sockets between the EHU and inverter. The transfer switch can be manual or automatic. Some inverters have a built-in transfer switch. The neutral-earth bonding needs careful consideration, and may or may not require a relay, depending on the exact configuration.

However the OP does not have a setup like that. The inverter and its sockets are separate from the EHU supply, and there is no transfer switch. In that case the inverter circuit, with its neutral-earth bond, will not interact with the EHU circuit anywhere. So it is OK to have a permanent neutral-earth bond in the inverter supply, and another neutral-earth bond in the hookup supply, at the same time.

Does that mean I need to bond my EHU inlet earth to the chassis or can I do it at the consumer unit.
Another thing I just thought of.
Do I need to bond the Victron 100/30 MPPT earth screw on the side to the chassis.

 

[MisterB]

I told you one of the grown ups will offer the correct advice !!

 

[autorouter]

Does that mean I need to bond my EHU inlet earth to the chassis or can I do it at the consumer unit.

I think it's usually done at the consumer unit, which is usually not very far from the inlet socket.

The idea of all this bonding is that a live wire might touch exposed metalwork if there is a fault - wire insulation chaffed by vibration, wire worked loose from a terminal, chewed by mice etc. If the metalwork is earthed, then the fault will blow a fuse or trip a breaker, rather than become live and present a hazard. Pipes, stainless steel sink, that sort of thing. All that should have been done when the EHU was first installed.

Do I need to bond the Victron 100/30 MPPT earth screw on the side to the chassis.

I think mostly on motorhomes it's not bonded to the chassis, although no harm in doing that. The voltage from solar panels on motorhomes is mostly below 50V, so not an electric shock hazard. But these MPPTs can be used with series strings of panels that generate high voltage, so the provision is there for earthing.

 

[Happy Jack]

I think it's usually done at the consumer unit, which is usually not very far from the inlet socket.

The idea of all this bonding is that a live wire might touch exposed metalwork if there is a fault - wire insulation chaffed by vibration, wire worked loose from a terminal, chewed by mice etc. If the metalwork is earthed, then the fault will blow a fuse or trip a breaker, rather than become live and present a hazard. Pipes, stainless steel sink, that sort of thing. All that should have been done when the EHU was first installed.


I think mostly on motorhomes it's not bonded to the chassis, although no harm in doing that. The voltage from solar panels on motorhomes is mostly below 50V, so not an electric shock hazard. But these MPPTs can be used with series strings of panels that generate high voltage, so the provision is there for earthing.

Ok, yes my consumer unit is right behind the inlet socket.
My 2 panels are in series and max voltage is 39 if I remember correctly.

 

[wfdTamar]

I meant most inverters are sold (labelled) based on their watts rating. Victron use VA. I'm just talking what is printed on the box and casing.

 

[Lenny HB]

I meant most inverters are sold (labelled) based on their watts rating. Victron use VA. I'm just talking what is printed on the box and casing.

Inverters often say watts but it is actually VA that is why they often trip out on inductive loads below what users think is their full power.

 

[Rozzer]

How does the Renogy take care of switching on EHU?
Is the inverter wired to the Consumer unit ?

The Renogy plugs into a van mains socket so detects when you go on EHU.

 

[Rozzer]

The Renogy plugs into a van mains socket so detects when you go on EHU.

 

[Happy Jack]

Update, Iv'e been busy on other things while waiting for the plug-in RCD tester.
Neglected to check if the tester was 3 day delivery, that's what I normally look for. Result was it came from China.
Arrived today but I'd already done some work on the van consumer unit. Opened it up and checked for an earth to the van chassis, it did have one; the green/yellow wire at the bottom of the photo; it goes to the rear light cluster earth point.
I'd done it 5 years ago when I did the self build.
Just goes to show the value of keeping a good written/pictorial record of what you do.
I'd also changed the double socket outlet under the consumer unit to 2 single DP socket outlets. This now used both circuit breakers.
Tested all OK. Not only did the van RCCD but it tripped the house one as well.
Suppose that's to be expected ???
Photo's below.

 

[Raul]

If they are both 30mA, the house circuit feeding the plug in socket, and the van ehu connection, the both will trip. Meaning if you ever have a fault on your van, you will trip the bollard as well.

 

[Happy Jack]

If they are both 30mA, the house circuit feeding the plug in socket, and the van ehu connection, the both will trip. Meaning if you ever have a fault on your van, you will trip the bollard as well.

Won't do any harm.

 

[Raul]

Won't do any harm.

No harm, just inconvenience.