Towing a trail or

[Mart grump]

Thinking of buying a fiat 500 and towing it on a trailor we have a swift kontiki 669 tag axle 2.2 litre engine any advice on towing is the engine man enough and where's the best place to get the trailor :thumb:

 

[PaulyP]

You need to know your gross vehicle weight and your gross train weight, take one away from the other and then you will know your towing weight.

ie. Mine is 3500kgs and 5500kgs therefore 2000kgs difference.

 

[Trikeman]

Good advice off Paul - a lot of the tags have a very low tow capacity.

Trikeman.

 

[PaulyP]

Good advice off Paul - a lot of the tags have a very low tow capacity.

Trikeman.

Thats why i changed mine, tag axle hymer had only 750kgs difference.
The first thing i wanted to know with the pilote was the weights.

 

[motor roamin]

Paul is bang on, the other thing to take into account is your licence, if you passed your car test before Jan 97 then you are fine as you will have C1+E giving a max train weight of 8250kg.

All the best Rick

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[steevie]

Commonly known as a grandad licence, but you don't have to be one
A single axle would probably be ok for so small a car, and there are a couple of firms make one mainly designed for the smart car, and they sort of fold up to store in the garage. I have a link somewhere but may have to come back with it.

Can't find the folding one but here is one firm, or just google trailer for smart car or minicar. http://www.armitagetrailers.com/Cartransportertrailers.htm

 

[pappajohn]

Commonly known as a [HI]grandad licence[/HI], but you don't have to be one
A single axle would probably be ok for so small a car, and there are a couple of firms make one mainly designed for the smart car, and they sort of fold up to store in the garage. I have a link somewhere but may have to come back with it.

or more correctly 'Grandfather rights' but amounts to the same thing.

pre jan 1997 = C1+E = 8250kg (Grandfather rights)
post jan 1997 = B (with trailer up to a combined mass of 3500kg) = 3500kg

 

[MattR]

Commonly known as a grandad licence, but you don't have to be one

How long has 36 years of age been old enough to put people into the "grandad" category? I know that there are 28 year old grandparents but having a grandad category that includes 36 yr olds just makes me feel old

 

[Emmenay]

I tow a new shape ford Ka (see my avatar) which is the sister car to the fiat 500. The trailer I use is a williams transporter CT115 (I think). The car and trailer come to 1350kg, well within the 1800kg I am allowed with the old Kon tiki 600.
You may just get away with it being a tag axle but I would definitely check closely.
My engine is the 2.8jtd and I can easily forget I am towing on the motorways.

 

[motor roamin]

How long has 36 years of age been old enough to put people into the "grandad" category? I know that there are 28 year old grandparents but having a grandad category that includes 36 yr olds just makes me feel old

Oi I was a grandpa at 34 and a great grandpa at 59 and more great grandchildren imminent and at 62 I am still a youngster John mentioned B+E licences be careful it has changed twice since post 97 but if you stick with johns post of 3500kg train weight you will not fall foul of any laws as that is the latest incarnation as of Jan 12 or 13 can't remember which :Blush: should do its my job after all

All the best Rick

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[motor roamin]

I tow a new shape ford Ka (see my avatar) which is the sister car to the fiat 500. The trailer I use is a williams transporter CT115 (I think). The car and trailer come to 1350kg, well within the 1800kg I am allowed with the old Kon tiki 600.
You may just get away with it being a tag axle but I would definitely check closely.
My engine is the 2.8jtd and I can easily forget I am towing on the motorways.

Remember the law looks at the plated weights of the tow vehicle and trailer not the actual weight, unless of course these are exceeded :thumb:

All the best Rick

 

[Emmenay]

Remember the law looks at the plated weights of the tow vehicle and trailer not the actual weight, unless of course these are exceeded :thumb:

All the best Rick

Quite right, I shouold/could have been a bit clearer, (from memory) the trailer weighs in at approx 350kg and can carry about 1050kg, plated. The Ka weighs about 950kg/1000kg.
The kon tiki 600 has a max train weight of about 5200kg and its max laden weight is 3400kg according to the book, so giving me enough to be within the permissible. I think i've got it right else i'm in deep doo doo :thumb:

 

[TheBig1]

I was going to mention the plated weight of the trailer but it looks like Rick beat me to it. not surprising as its part of his profession. where else can you get such knowledgeable answers to a technical question freely offered?

as for towing any trailer behind a tag axle motorhome, you have to be very careful to fit in with the regulations. the government agency formerly known as VOSA are cracking down on leisure use vehicles and are particularly interested in heavy trailers. tag axles have a particularly low train weight compared to the weight of the vehicle restricting the weight of any trailer and load, often below that needed to tow a car. the authorities know this so will spot and target such vehicles towing cars as a priority

if you buy a trailer capable of carrying 2000kg, then you must use this weight+ the weight of the trailer in your calculations. whatever you do you must never exceed the maximum permissible train weight of your vehicle shown on the vehicle plate

get it wrong and not only is there a substantial fine for being over weights, you will not be allowed to continue on your journey. this may mean leaving your trailer behind to collect later with a suitable vehicle and having another driver bring the car. its a right royal pain in the backside to sort such things. I know of a few people that have had to phone a friend to come collect some of their load and trailers, including in 2 cases horses transferred to another horse box after being stopped and weighed. dont think that a breakdown organisation such as the aa or rac will help either as you were breaking the law so they have an opt out in their terms and conditions

 

[aba]

My tag axle can according to the plates tow 1000kg which isn't enough to tow an early smart on a trailer.

Be sure you look at the weight plates fitted by the converter as they will be the correct ones.

 

[TheBig1]

Quite right, I shouold/could have been a bit clearer, (from memory) the trailer weighs in at approx 350kg and can carry about 1050kg, plated. The Ka weighs about 950kg/1000kg.
The kon tiki 600 has a max train weight of about 5200kg and its max laden weight is 3400kg according to the book, so giving me enough to be within the permissible. I think i've got it right else i'm in deep doo doo :thumb:

are you certain that such a big van only has a maximum laden weight of 3400kg and that isnt the kerbside weight unladen?

basically you are towing 1400kg theoretically although actual weight is below this. so provided your van max permissible laden weight is under 3800kg you should be ok. personally I would be concerned that given your figures you are near the maximum load for the trailer. so you shouldnt put any load in the car

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[Jaws]

Although I was not warned by the dealer I bought from even though I asked him to fit a tow bar, I subsequently found out from a good friend who actually runs a motorhome delership in Southampton that it has a max towing capacity of 1 tonne.. Not a problem for me as my rig weighs ( a very close ) 990 kilos.. But that is with a smarty and a pheonix trailer

 

[Emmenay]

are you certain that such a big van only has a maximum laden weight of 3400kg and that isnt the kerbside weight unladen?

basically you are towing 1400kg theoretically although actual weight is below this. so provided your van max permissible laden weight is under 3800kg you should be ok. personally I would be concerned that given your figures you are near the maximum load for the trailer. so you shouldnt put any load in the car

Yes pretty certain on that one, 3400kg. According to the figures, with the fuel tank at 90% and water 90% and average driver of 75kg, it comes in at about 3135kg unladen. Thats not allowing for extras like domes and solar panels etc.
As for the trailer, yes it is near the mark, so the car is always empty, apart from maybe some clothes etc, nearly always an empty fuel tank, and the trailer spare wheel in the van. :thumb:

 

[Electraglide]

Thank you all for the information on this post and one running a couple off days ago.
As the OP, we are looking at buying a Kontiki 669, the Swift website gives the following details.
Maximum technical permissable weight 5000kgs
Gross train weight 6000kgs
Maximum recommended trailer weight 1600kgs
Bike on a trailer weighs 310 kgs for trailer 495kgs for bike total 805kgs.
The trailer will be new, nomally plated at 1500kgs, looks like I will have to request it is plated at 1000kgs to keep VOSA at bay if I am understanding this correctly.

 

[martin2603]

train weights

KKontiki 669 2008 max towing weight 1600kg

Brian James Smart trailer 300k ( I have one) Fiat 500 800kg? Hyundai i10 (I use 980kg) Still under 6000kg max with ample payload. in the MH.

Or use an A frame towing attachment if in the UK Your Fiat and A frame will be well under 1000kg. Even more payload in the MH

Martin:thumb:

 

[sean n maggie]

just got a brian james trailer for our smart car,,,cost £1995.00 from sheffield,,,,,tow bar going on our autotrail tomorrow....:thumb:

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[Jaws]

KKontiki 669 2008 max towing weight 1600kg

Brian James Smart trailer 300k ( I have one) Fiat 500 800kg? Hyundai i10 (I use 980kg) Still under 6000kg max with ample payload. in the MH.

Or use an A frame towing attachment if in the UK Your Fiat and A frame will be well under 1000kg. Even more payload in the MH

Martin:thumb:

It is not about all up weight.. It is the fac the chassis cannot take it ! So if you pull away a bit sharpish and hear a horrible tortured metal tearing sort of sound you will know you have no longer got a trailer on the back !!!

But if the kontiki can handle 1600 kg it will not be an issue for you.. Unlucky me with the autocruise ( which I was under the impression was on the same chassis type as the Kontiki ? ) only has a max towing ability of 1000kg

 

[robnchris]

We`re always bemused by people towing a car behind their motorhome.

If you need a car when you get to your destination why not just use the family car to tow a caravan....OR do what we do, if we feel the need to get about sight seeing and don`t want to use the motorhome we just hire a car.

Looking at the cost of buying a Tow Car, running expenses, Tax, Ins etc. then cost of Trailor and Tow Bar we`re thinking you can hire a lot of cars for that, always have a new vehicle and don`t have the worry of towing it.oh:

 

[motor roamin]

Yes pretty certain on that one, 3400kg. According to the figures, with the fuel tank at 90% and water 90% and average driver of 75kg, it comes in at about 3135kg unladen. Thats not allowing for extras like domes and solar panels etc.
As for the trailer, yes it is near the mark, so the car is always empty, apart from maybe some clothes etc, nearly always an empty fuel tank, and the trailer spare wheel in the van. :thumb:

I would load your Motorhome for traveling then with the wife go and put it on a weigh bridge to check its actual travelling weight also go to a weigh bridge that can weigh front and rear axles to make sure they are not overloaded then load the trailer take that to the weigh bridge and get that weighed, because I think you could be very close, better be safe than sorry :thumb:

All the best Rick

 

[motor roamin]

KKontiki 669 2008 max towing weight 1600kg

Brian James Smart trailer 300k ( I have one) Fiat 500 800kg? Hyundai i10 (I use 980kg) Still under 6000kg max with ample payload. in the MH.

Or use an A frame towing attachment if in the UK Your Fiat and A frame will be well under 1000kg. Even more payload in the MH

Martin:thumb:

Remember when using an a frame the weight will be the gross weight of the car + the weight of the A frame :thumb:

All the best Rick

 

[JohnM]

We`re always bemused by people towing a car behind their motorhome.

If you need a car when you get to your destination why not just use the family car to tow a caravan....OR do what we do, if we feel the need to get about sight seeing and don`t want to use the motorhome we just hire a car.

Looking at the cost of buying a Tow Car, running expenses, Tax, Ins etc. then cost of Trailor and Tow Bar we`re thinking you can hire a lot of cars for that, always have a new vehicle and don`t have the worry of towing it.oh:

Dont quite agree with your logic i would much rather tow a small car than a heavy caravan,and you dont have to run two cars,most small cars now are zero rated for tax.I caravaned for the best part of 40yrs and would not go back to towing a caravan. JohnM

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[aba]

Remember when using an a frame the weight will be the gross weight of the car + the weight of the A frame :thumb:

All the best Rick

Just to clarify this is that gross weight on the weight plate or actual kerb weight as it would be on an a frame.

If it is gross weight off the weight plate a smart 450 comes in at around 950kg but actually weighs around 750kg

In the same light a Peugeot 107 comes in at around 1200kg plated but around 800 kerb weight.
In the documentation my motorhome has a towing capacity of 1800kg but with a max weight of 5000kg and a train weight of 6000kg the 1800 is just a fictional figure. Incidentally my motorhome weighs in at 4120 empty with 80% fuel (weigh bridge checked) so maybe that's where the 1800 comes in.

 

[TheBig1]

just had another thought, as mentioned go to the weigh bridge with van and trailer both loaded. the nose weight of the trailer will generally be around 100kg by design. however 100kg on the towball will normally be nearer a 150kg load on the rear axle of the van

it really can get complicated to take account of all the factorsoh:

never take the sales literature as gospel though, as figures given in a brochure for kerb weight and towing capacities are always overly optimistic. much like the quoted MPG figures

 

[bigbaz]

I've had two Kontiki 669's,my first one in 2010 could tow 2000kgs.I used
to tow a Renault modus on a trailer.
My second one in 2012 could only tow 1550kgs,so had to get a littler car
Kia Picanto,which I also towed on a trailer.
There is one difference between my Kontiki's they both had the 3 litre
engine with automatic gearbox,but a Swift Bolero 2.3 can tow 2000kgs.

 

[pappajohn]

KKontiki 669 2008 max towing weight 1600kg

Brian James Smart trailer 300k ( I have one) Fiat 500 800kg? Hyundai i10 (I use 980kg) Still under 6000kg max with ample payload. in the MH.

Or use an A frame towing attachment if in the UK[HI] Your Fiat and A frame will be well under 1000kg.[/HI] Even more payload in the MH

Martin:thumb:

Extremely unlikely Martin.

the weigh used by VOSA is the towed vehicles plated [HI]GROSS weight[/HI]....not what it weighs at the time.

 

[pappajohn]

Thank you all for the information on this post and one running a couple off days ago.
As the OP, we are looking at buying a Kontiki 669, the Swift website gives the following details.
Maximum technical permissable weight 5000kgs
Gross train weight 6000kgs
Maximum recommended trailer weight 1600kgs
Bike on a trailer weighs 310 kgs for trailer 495kgs for bike total 805kgs.
The trailer will be new, nomally plated at 1500kgs, looks like I will have to request it is plated at 1000kgs to keep VOSA at bay if I am understanding this correctly.

you wouldnt HAVE to as the recommended max allowable trailer weight is 1600kg.....but you would lose 600kg of payload in the van.

gross weight and train weight have little in common in real terms.
if the tow vehicle is light then the trailer can make up the weight up to the plated train weight..
ie: the vans actual loaded weight is 4000kg then the trailer could effectively be 2000kg and still be within train weight limits.

the 1600kg limit is a manufacturer/converter recommendation.....not a hard and fast limit

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