Saga article about full-timing (1 Viewer)

[mikebeaches]

The January edition of the Saga magazine popped through the letter box at lunchtime, and there's a five-page inspirational article about a couple who set out to explore Europe (and Morocco) in 2015.

Some great images illustrating their travels, a map of where they've been, where they particularly like and places they were less keen on.

The article also describes how they set up their finances to facilitate their new lifestyle. They are 'relatively' young - Wayne is 51 and Angie is 49. [Well it seems young to me, but I guess not to folk in their 30s and 40s ]

Wonder if they are members on here? Their blog: Broken Link Removed

Anyway, a great article and should help sell a few more motorhomes...

 

[ianthebuilder]

I met him on an aire in a marina outside Seville last year,, he had just had some work done on the motorhome, in fact it was him that gave me the mechanics address who did a fantastic job for me,,,

Nice bloke, looked like they were really enjoying themselves,,, if I remember rightly, he had Charlie the chuckkebus painted on the mh,, Nice bloke!!

Never seen him on here though??

 

[mikebeaches]

I met him on an aire in a marina outside Seville last year,, he had just had some work done on the motorhome, in fact it was him that gave me the mechanics address who did a fantastic job for me,,,

Nice bloke, looked like they were really enjoying themselves,,, if I remember rightly, he had Charlie the chuckkebus painted on the mh,, Nice bloke!!

Never seen him on here though??

Wow, quite a coincidence Ian!

We'll have to get your exploits featured in the Saga magazine...

 

[Sandie]

I also saw the article. One thing I was going to query, though, was their statement that camping "wild" is "a right in Norway, illegal in England and Wales and tolerated in France and much of Spain, but not on the Med". I know there is much debate about the rules around overnighting in various locations, but is there a legal definition of "wild camping", is it really illegal, and if so, what is the actual law which prohibits it? (Leaving aside any local council by-laws as regards their car parks etc.)

 

[Emmit]

I've searched and can find no legal definition of the word 'Camping'.
Sure, there are signs that might suggest that sleeping in any vehicle is camping but I would retort that by walking down any sea front in Summer you'll find some codger sending out the zzzzzzz! No one would suggest that he is camping.

I quite like the definition used by the Authorities in Spain/Portugal. So long as you are in a self contained vehicle and have nothing protruding out of said vehicle or removed from it then you ain't 'Camping' even if you are spending the night there.
NB With the codicil that you don't take the Mickey (other rodents are available) and stay in the same place forever.

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[DBK]

I also saw the article. One thing I was going to query, though, was their statement that camping "wild" is "a right in Norway, illegal in England and Wales and tolerated in France and much of Spain, but not on the Med". I know there is much debate about the rules around overnighting in various locations, but is there a legal definition of "wild camping", is it really illegal, and if so, what is the actual law which prohibits it? (Leaving aside any local council by-laws as regards their car parks etc.)

In England and Wales virtually all land is owned by someone so in theory you have no right to occupy (camp on) it without permission. Scotland has different laws.

 

[SpeedyDux]

In England and Wales virtually all land is owned by someone so in theory you have no right to occupy (camp on) it without permission. Scotland has different laws.

Yes, in England and Wales without permission from the owner/occupier of the land it is a trespass which is a civil tort. If the place where you stop to wild camp is part of a highway, that adds a further layer of English legal complexity because land law overlaps with road traffic law and local bye-laws.

The bottom line is that wild camping, unless expressly permitted, in practice is tolerated as long as it is not abused, but I would not put it any higher than that. There is no basis for claiming it as a right, although I think Gypsies and Travellers try to assert that camping wherever they like is a human right that the law should recognise in order to protect their nomadic lifestyle and heritage. I doubt that in England there is a generally accepted legal definition of "camping" as such, but apart from the fine print in some car park conditions (which becomes a question of interpretation) it really makes no significant difference whether you are just parked up or "camping". Even the definition of a "motorhome" is somewhat uncertain and controversial; for some purposes it is defined as a "caravan".

 

[kelpie]

The councils will have the last laugh, they will have you "gassed"

 

[nicholsong]

Saga are running the article, but do they provide full-time insurance?

 

[Sandie]

I doubt that in England there is a generally accepted legal definition of "camping" as such, but apart from the fine print in some car park conditions (which becomes a question of interpretation) it really makes no significant difference whether you are just parked up or "camping". Even the definition of a "motorhome" is somewhat uncertain and controversial; for some purposes it is defined as a "caravan".

I am aware of the difficulties of interpretation of "camping" and "motorhomes" from closely following the shenanigans taking place in Scarborough, Whitby etc. and valiantly exposed by the redoubtable Andy Strangeways. The council car parks had "no overnight camping" signs (with a penalty listed) in most car parks, which , it turned out, was an unenforceable restriction due to the difficulty of proving that someone was "camping". In the end they got their way in stopping motorhomes from overnighting by banning motorhomes between 11p.m. and 7.am. Of course, then they got into difficulties with the definition of "motorhome". Parking restrictions bye-laws refer to a vehicle class, and most motorhomes are of "private/light goods" class, with a body type "motor caravan".....
So, when the article says that wild camping is illegal, that's not strictly true...it's down to who owns the land you are parked on.
Who does own, say, a rural layby, which is unsurfaced and therefore presumably not part of the highway?
Also, I understand that there is no law that prohibits sleeping in vehicles parked on the public highway. That must be true, surely?

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[mikebeaches]

Who does own, say, a rural layby, which is unsurfaced and therefore presumably not part of the highway?
Also, I understand that there is no law that prohibits sleeping in vehicles parked on the public highway. That must be true, surely?

Must say, I've always been unsure of the legal position regarding the thousands of truckers/HGV drivers that sleep overnight in laybys at the roadside?

And do those truckers have any different legal status - in that respect - compared to motorhomers?

 

[SpeedyDux]

I am aware of the difficulties of interpretation of "camping" and "motorhomes" from closely following the shenanigans taking place in Scarborough, Whitby etc. and valiantly exposed by the redoubtable Andy Strangeways. The council car parks had "no overnight camping" signs (with a penalty listed) in most car parks, which , it turned out, was an unenforceable restriction due to the difficulty of proving that someone was "camping". In the end they got their way in stopping motorhomes from overnighting by banning motorhomes between 11p.m. and 7.am. Of course, then they got into difficulties with the definition of "motorhome". Parking restrictions bye-laws refer to a vehicle class, and most motorhomes are of "private/light goods" class, with a body type "motor caravan".....
So, when the article says that wild camping is illegal, that's not strictly true...it's down to who owns the land you are parked on.
Who does own, say, a rural layby, which is unsurfaced and therefore presumably not part of the highway?
Also, I understand that there is no law that prohibits sleeping in vehicles parked on the public highway. That must be true, surely?

"Illegal" is inaccurate because that implies criminality. "Unlawful" would be better.

The starting point is that there is no general right as such to park a vehicle on the highway. Laybys, footpaths and places accessible from a public road including car parks are defined as part of the highway for various legal purposes and offences.

Most people would be surprised to hear that in England there is only a general right to pass and repass with or without vehicles along the highway. Other uses of the highway that involve stopping a vehicle for a significant length of time (a brief picnic should be OK) are likely to be unlawful even if not specifically prohibited in that locality. Parking on the highway in a designated space may be authorised in various ways by landowners and local authorities and may be subject to payment and conditions including times. It's a very complicated subject and difficult to generalise without misleading.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Must say, I've always been unsure of the legal position regarding the thousands of truckers/HGV drivers that sleep overnight in laybys at the roadside?

And do those truckers have any different legal status - in that respect - compared to motorhomers?

No, truckers do not have a different legal status except where the local authority or landowner provides a designated truck stop. I feel sorry for truckers who need to fly park because they are out of hours and have nowhere else. The problem seems especially acute in Kent:

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/government-to-announce-new-powers-127330/

 

[DBK]

Who does own, say, a rural layby, which is unsurfaced and therefore presumably not part of the highway?

The land will generally belong to the person who owns the field the other side of the hedge, which is why it is their responsibility to cut the hedge.
Technically, I don't think the position is any different to someone you don't know bowling up and deciding to park on your drive.

Also, I understand that there is no law that prohibits sleeping in vehicles parked on the public highway. That must be true, surely?

No law against sleeping but there may be about parking. Which is where the local council mentioned by SD got in to trouble - making up rules to suit them.

 

[mikebeaches]

No, truckers do not have a different legal status except where the local authority or landowner provides a designated truck stop. I feel sorry for truckers who need to fly park because they are out of hours and have nowhere else. The problem seems especially acute in Kent:

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/government-to-announce-new-powers-127330/

Interesting thanks. I suppose the proposed new powers aimed at truckers could result in motorhomers being more likely to be caught up.

I can imagine it must be bad in Kent, with all of the continental traffic.

Although we live in the south-west, we notice when visiting family, the trucks parked everywhere in the Midlands - near the strategic motorway network. And periodically, an occasional motorhome parked in their midst.

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[Gromett]

I read some time ago that everything in the UK is permitted unless it is specifically prohibited, whereas on the continent everything is prohibited unless specifically permitted. Except in France where everything that is prohibited is permitted (joke)...

There is some truth to this, In the UK unless something is specifically prohibited it is considered permitted under law. The reverse is true for our public authorities which gives us a balance in power and control.

So unless parking overnight is specifically forbidden by a particular law, bylaw etc then you can park there...

I tend to apply common sense to my wild parking (I don't wild camp). My vehicle is always in a position for me to drive off without making any preparations with the exception of putting the kettle away. If I am near a beauty spot I will walk well away from van with a chair/table and bag of stuff so that I am not camping by the van...

I don't park where I am going to be a nuisance or distraction for residents... I never stay in one place for more than 24 hours and never leave anything behind.

I have never had the police or any other official knock on the van door and have never had a ticket.

 

[Wagoneer]

I am aware of the difficulties of interpretation of "camping" and "motorhomes" from closely following the shenanigans taking place in Scarborough, Whitby etc. and valiantly exposed by the redoubtable Andy Strangeways. The council car parks had "no overnight camping" signs (with a penalty listed) in most car parks, which , it turned out, was an unenforceable restriction due to the difficulty of proving that someone was "camping". In the end they got their way in stopping motorhomes from overnighting by banning motorhomes between 11p.m. and 7.am. Of course, then they got into difficulties with the definition of "motorhome". Parking restrictions bye-laws refer to a vehicle class, and most motorhomes are of "private/light goods" class, with a body type "motor caravan".....
So, when the article says that wild camping is illegal, that's not strictly true...it's down to who owns the land you are parked on.
Who does own, say, a rural layby, which is unsurfaced and therefore presumably not part of the highway?
Also, I understand that there is no law that prohibits sleeping in vehicles parked on the public highway. That must be true, surely?

The "Highway" as such extends up to the fenceline either side which includes footways, verges, drainage channels, embankments, cuttings etc. Every Highway Authority has a map showing exactly the location of the highway boundary in the absence of a physical fenceline.

So, if you are camped on an unsurfaced layby, for example, this will be within the highway boundary and restrictions will apply.