Rear rear suspension MOT failure

telsdog said:
Classic error me thinks Geo is that you are reading the testing manual and putting you own interpretation to it. The section 2.4 is for general suspension front and rear and not just coil springs. In my opinion a bump stop is normally a lump of hardish rubber that STOPS the suspension going further than intended. If the parts fitted to the Ducato are designed to bring the suspension to a less sudden halt and Fiat call it an assistors I will pass it. If you see it different then OK but to say that for mot purposes its a bump stop period is a bit misleading and just your opinion
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Classic
Im governed by DVSA you by Fiat :doh: says it all really

Show me the special Notice and I will bow to your diligence cos I cant find any references at all
and im sure there would have been given the confusion
Ps I have just rung Fiat for a price on rear spring assisters, Part's man said do you mean the Bump Stops :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Classic! Your word not mine. Obviously I too am governed by Dvsa. That's why I read the manual literally and don't put my own interpretation on things. IF presented with the same vehicle and evidence that Fiat call it an assistor and no special notice from Dvsa I would still pass with an advise that it was tested as such.Then I would have evidence it's called an assistor but you would have none that it's called a bump stop
 
Okay @Geo would you fail or pass @laneside 's van if no gap between chassis and axle?
laneside's van.jpg
 
I am with @Geo

If you search on google for spring assisters - you don't get a picture of anything like that shown on earlier posts.

But if you do a search for Bump stops - you most definitely do.

It's a bump stop (y)
 
MH 55 FUN said:
The info in this outandaboutlive link dates back to 2011 . . . surely someone, somewhere has the facts of the matter by now ?
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Maybe its a case of head in sand, these are the rules we have been given, the exception being those who use their loaf and can recognise a lump of rubber from a suspension assistor.
Vin

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Interesting argument if getting a bit pedantic.

I am convinced that you would very pleased indeed from fitting a pair of airides or similar. I fitted them to a previous motorhome (with similar rear suspension) cost about £500 and took just over an hour to put on.
 
There is something very wrong here!

I have just been out and looked at our 2 year old X250 PVC, having 13000 miles on the clock. The spring assister/bump stops are almost, if not, touching the single leaf spring. Our van is plated at 3500 kg but the van is rated at 4500 kg. Front axle capacity 2100 kg and rear axle capacity 2400 kg, both clearly visible on both the Fiat and motorhome manufacturers plates.

Our rear axle weight, when loaded to travel, is about 1700 kg and has never been greater. This is 700 kg less that the design weight capacity of the axle. Why on earth should this fail an MOT? I will have a look at brand new vans when I have the opportunity and guess that they will all be the same.
 
I can't post it here, but I have a copy of a Fiat Service News bulletin 44.05.14 which has been circulated to update a previous X250 bulletin to also cover the X290.

It states "It should be noted that, even if the load conditions fall within the allowed limits, the contact between the rear suspension buffers and the leaf springs is to be considered standard" and includes a photograph of a Ducato single leaf rear suspension with the buffer (aka Bump stop) in contact with the spring.

This also covers the situation I believe:

https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/the-knowledge-spring-assisters-and-bump-stops/

Fiat's stance is that the items are intended to be suspension assisters rather than bump stops, and so IMO the part of the Test Manual which states that a suspension bump stop must not be confused with rubber or synthetic spring assistors applies to standard Ducato rear suspension.

The bottom line must be that, as the manufacturer, they know what the items are intended for, whereas the parts man in a local Fiat dealer may only know what he thinks they are!
 
Had a discussion with my mot tester about a similar situation on my x250 just after I got the van. He passed it with an advisory.
There was an official document but the link don't work any longer.
Fitted an air suspension kit now - easy job
 
ludo said:
There is something very wrong here!

I have just been out and looked at our 2 year old X250 PVC, having 13000 miles on the clock. The spring assister/bump stops are almost, if not, touching the single leaf spring. Our van is plated at 3500 kg but the van is rated at 4500 kg. Front axle capacity 2100 kg and rear axle capacity 2400 kg, both clearly visible on both the Fiat and motorhome manufacturers plates.

Our rear axle weight, when loaded to travel, is about 1700 kg and has never been greater. This is 700 kg less that the design weight capacity of the axle. Why on earth should this fail an MOT? I will have a look at brand new vans when I have the opportunity and guess that they will all be the same.
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You can look at as many as you like BUT

It clearly rests on weather its a spring assister PASS or a Bump Stop Fail it really is that simple
If Fiat have invented a new spring assister then they should not have disguised it as a Bump Stop
Or at the very least let the powers that be know about it
But I find in life generally that if it looks like a Duck, Walks like a Duck and Quacks like a Duck then guess what!!!!! Its a Bump Stop ;)

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MikeD said:
I am with @Geo

If you search on google for spring assisters - you don't get a picture of anything like that shown on earlier posts.

But if you do a search for Bump stops - you most definitely do.

It's a bump stop (y)
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If you do a google search for Fiat Ducati rear suspension assistor and look at images guess what you see. A duck!!
 
telsdog said:
If you do a google search for Fiat Ducati rear suspension assistor and look at images guess what you see. A duck!!
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Lots of pictures of motorhomes and after market parts ?

Type it in eBay and to try and buy one that don't say bump stop
 
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Now managed to snip the image circulated by Fiat which shows what they consider to be normal condition of the rear suspension.

Suspension.JPG
 
As I work as a tech at Peugeot main dealer I have looked on service box at boxer van and they state it as a rebound block which suggests it's a bump stop. I have also looked at a new van in our showroom and it's sitting on the spring assisters or bump.

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jonegood said:
Interesting argument if getting a bit pedantic.

I am convinced that you would very pleased indeed from fitting a pair of airides or similar. I fitted them to a previous motorhome (with similar rear suspension) cost about £500 and took just over an hour to put on.
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Okay, seems I've opened a can of worms here. You are quite right ridewise but I'm damned if I have to spend 5 or 6 hundred quid just to get round an MOT grey area!
Thanks
Vin
 
vin0114 said:
Okay, seems I've opened a can of worms here. You are quite right ridewise but I'm damned if I have to spend 5 or 6 hundred quid just to get round an MOT grey area!
Thanks
Vin
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Not a grey area to a tester who reads the manual and accepts it is an assistor. I'm sure if you show the original garage the link from denim and the bulletin from wizard you will get a pass. It's not an error by the tester just lack of information.
 
A reply from Vosa on the out & about forum 2010

Thank you for your e-mail enquiry dated 5th May 2010, concerning Ford Transit Suspension.

Some vehicles such as Citroen Relay and Peugeot Boxer, have extended rear 'bump stops' which may have little or no clearance between itself and the spring leaf. These 'stops' are designed as spring assisters (the lower section is compressible) and should not be considered as a failureunder 2.4A1 just because there is little or no clearance.

Must admit that we've never seen one on a Transit but many motorhome builders fit them as an after market conversion and use several types. This makes it extremely difficult to cite particular mfrs/models in VSI. Some such as Fiat and Citroen may factory fit them as a 'standard' option on certain models at time of order but again it is not easy to identify them for VSI.

There are several designs but the most common is a concertina shape (straight or conical) which allows the rubber to collapse (which can be by as much as 50% or more) as load is put on it. The concertina shape is a good indication of construction but there are others which are straight but are obviously much longer than a bump stop. They usually are in contact with the spring/axle,especially with motorhomes, which are usually close to DGW most of the time, as they assist throughout the range of the main spring.

Though there is a note in the database we haven't had that many calls on this but we are looking at an article for Matters of Testing.

I would advise you to approach the VTS and ask them to ring the Contact centre for further advice. If the VTS is unwilling to do this then we can contact them if you supply the details. However we can only advise not instruct the VTS on this and ultimately an appeal may be the final option.

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards,

VOSA Contact Centre
Operations Directorate
Tel: 0300 123 9000"


http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Ford-suspension/19542/

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Issue 50 May 2011,Page 13
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....vosa/repository/MoT - Issue 50 - May 2011.pdf

laneside said:
View attachment 144466 View attachment 144465 Interesting now I would set my stall by Geo as being one to know and trust but I have just taken these pictures under our 2015 Fial PV conversion that has not yet covered 8000 miles. I have only just recently put it over the weigh bridge so know it has only 1700Kg on the rear axle but the spring assiters are clearly up to the leaf spring.
The Fiat handbook clearly says that they are not bump stops but suspension assistors

Definitely not argueing with Geo but if this is the case I will definitely be looking at air suspension when back in England
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I thought yours was French ?

MH 55 FUN said:
The info in this outandaboutlive link dates back to 2011 . . . surely someone, somewhere has the facts of the matter by now ?
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It goes back to 2004 on fwd transits.lol
 
Ap
Geo said:
But I find in life generally that if it looks like a Duck, Walks like a Duck and Quacks like a Duck then guess what!!!!! Its a Bump Stop ;)
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If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.........guess what its a drake. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

After reading @Deneb s link from dvsa Your bump stop is clearly a spring assister that when compressed acts as a bump stop.

Would the vehicle now pass its mot?
 
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vin0114 said:
Issue 50 May 2011,Page 13
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....vosa/repository/MoT - Issue 50 - May 2011.pdf
this clearly says it all right back in 2011. Good night all.
Vin
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HOT TIPS
The knowledge
Spring assisters and
bump stops
Quite a few van manufacturers use
‘spring assisters’ to support the
base spring, especially on models
which have low load heights or are
usually run full or part loaded.
Typical examples include motor
homes, which use the basic
chassis/cab with quite a heavy
body, and vehicles such as the
‘tool van’, which always have a fair
amount of heavy stock on board.
Spring assisters are usually either
extra leaves (more common to
heavy goods vehicles) or rubber/
polyurethane cones – also known
as Aeon springs (more common
on the types of vans we see for
MOT testing). Both types act by
stiffening the suspension once
deflection of the base spring
reaches a certain point, affording
maximum comfort whether the
vehicle is empty or loaded.
On vans, the preferred method is
to use a rubber cone, which keeps
unladen weight down and allows a
low load height. These cones look
like oversized rubber bump stops
but work in a different way. The
centre of the cone is hollow (see
Fig. 1) and when the suspension
oscillates, the rubber compresses –
effectively dampening the spring
oscillation. The compression rate is
progressive until eventually – at full
load – the cone is fully compressed
and then acts as a bump stop.
When the suspension rebounds,
the cone decompresses and
re-forms to its natural shape.
Fig. 1
Fig. 2
Because of their size and design
characteristics, these cones may
sit very close to or even on the
base spring (see Fig. 2), yet the
suspension appears to be in its
normal running position. This is, in
fact, a design feature – but some
testers interpret it as a failure under
IM 2.4A1:
‘inadequate clearance
between bump stop and chassis
or a suspension unit so weak that
the body or other part of the
vehicle fouls a road wheel or would
do so if the vehicle was laden’
.
Before failing a vehicle under this
RfR, testers should first determine
if a spring assister is fitted, and
whether the suspension really is
so weak that the body would foul
a road wheel.
 
Military style still following last orders, Still a Duck and still waiting for that elusive (New Order)S/N Special Notice No ???? Dated ??/??/20??
to be produced
Im not complaining as the time spent here is counting toward my annual training and assessment and is far more interesting than reading the same stuff over and over
And yes still a fail till Vosa say otherwise in a S/N, Sorry but a list of publications/press releases and .Gov web site info however official do not count as an official notification
that I can act on
 
As an aside those testers out there passing and advising such items (As is their right)
To what standard are you assessing /testing to ? and can you point me to it in the testing manual
You will be asked all in bold letters by the disciplinary team(in the event of an appeal) by an angry customer
who just bought a MoHo with what he thinks soggy suspension and a dodgy MoT Cos his pub mates told him so
And to be fair to all,
How did you idnetify and What is it that actually creates a PASS and what creates a FAIL? Vosa seem to have just stated "Some" vehicles" as having the "New" style spring assisters
How are you recognising these vehicles or are you just advising on any and all vehicles that appear with bump stops that have bottomed out?
I ask because I dont know, and i want my answers ready
 
Geo said:
As an aside those testers out there passing and advising such items (As is their right)
To what standard are you assessing /testing to ? and can you point me to it in the testing manual
You will be asked all in bold letters by the disciplinary team(in the event of an appeal) by an angry customer
who just bought a MoHo with what he thinks soggy suspension and a dodgy MoT Cos his pub mates told him so
And to be fair to all,
How did you idnetify and What is it that actually creates a PASS and what creates a FAIL? Vosa seem to have just stated "Some" vehicles" as having the "New" style spring assisters
How are you recognising these vehicles or are you just advising on any and all vehicles that appear with bump stops that have bottomed out?
I ask because I dont know, and i want my answers ready
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Geo I agree that it could seem like a "grey area" and is obviously down to individual interpretation as witnessed here, but the clue seems to be in the last sentence below as extracted from lofy1's link.

Martin

Because of their size and design characteristics, these cones may sit very close to or even on the base spring (see Fig. 2), yet the suspension appears to be in its normal running position. This is, in fact, a design feature – but some testers interpret it as a failure under IM 2.4A1: ‘inadequate clearance between bump stop and chassis or a suspension unit so weak that the body or other part of the vehicle fouls a road wheel or would do so if the vehicle was laden’. Before failing a vehicle under this RfR, testers should first determine if a spring assister is fitted, and whether the suspension really is so weak that the body would foul a road wheel.

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