Random loss of power

[mavisnderek]

On several occasions over the last year, our Fiat Ducato 2.3 Multijet 150 Motorhome has completely lost power. Fortunately, this has happened whilst driving on local roads at no more than 30-35 mph. The first time was last July, we were able to find a lay-by and were rescued to a local garage who ran some onboard diagnostics and took it for a couple of test runs and said they couldn't find anything wrong. We had a few trips after this without incidence. In February this year, the Motorhome had a full service / MOT (at a different garage) before we set off on another trouble-free trip. Then, when taking it back to storage, another loss of power. Accelerator full to the floor, but no revs. Luckily, we were again able to limp along to a lay-by. After waiting 5 minutes, the problems seemed to sort itself out and back in to storage she went. Today, we decided to check the MH out and within 100 metres another loss of power, this time more severe and even stalled. I manged to inch it back to storage in first gear but with very little power. This time I noticed the amber engine warning light was on with the displayed error message"check engine". I've ordered an OBD 2 Diagnostic Scanner to see if that reveals anything before being put at the mercy of another expensive garage / Fiat dealer. I've found a couple of old threads in this forum but was wondering if anyone else could shed any light on this issue and potential guidance? One last point of note, I've notice average mpg has dropped about 15% recently.

 

[MisterB]

first thing i would do is to change the fuel filter, i dont know whether it would show up as a fault on the obd scanner or not. it could be blocked and starving fuel supply just when you need it?

you should also check to make sure the filter doesnt have any metal in it - it will show as fluorescent colour. if it does then your fuel pump is on its way out. it happened to me on a kangoo van and cost me a fortune - it showed the same symptoms, loss of power, warning lights, then drove as normal. apparently the warning light was telling me that the fuel injectors were being blocked, but then clearing again, eventually they just clogged up completely.

 

[ambulancekidd]

Certainly sounds fuel related & my first guess at a culprit would be filter, over or under tightening is usually the issue.
Depends if the correct tool was used at last filter change.

 

[2x2camper]

I've had the same symptom you describe in a diesel powered car. Turned out to be water in the fuel filter.

 

[Lenny HB]

Another possibility is the EGR valve gummed up.

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[TheBig1]

there are a number of possibilities, you don't say the age of the van. Could be the old problem of the injector wiring loom being too short. water in the fuel, gummed up fuel filter, gummed up EGR valve, water damage to the throttle position sensor(unlikely), a bad sensor connection or a partly seized up suction control valve

 

[gus-lopez]

Another possibility is the EGR valve gummed up.

That doesn't usually bring on the limp mode though? It didn't on mine anyway.

 

[mavisnderek]

Quick update. ODB scanner revealed P0101 error "Mass or Volume Air Flow A Circuit Range / Performance". Not sure what this means, how accurate the diagnostics are or how expensive a fix it is, but now need to find a reputable mobile Fiat mechanic to do some investigative work / fix issue.

 

[Coolcats]

On several occasions over the last year, our Fiat Ducato 2.3 Multijet 150 Motorhome has completely lost power. Fortunately, this has happened whilst driving on local roads at no more than 30-35 mph. The first time was last July, we were able to find a lay-by and were rescued to a local garage who ran some onboard diagnostics and took it for a couple of test runs and said they couldn't find anything wrong. We had a few trips after this without incidence. In February this year, the Motorhome had a full service / MOT (at a different garage) before we set off on another trouble-free trip. Then, when taking it back to storage, another loss of power. Accelerator full to the floor, but no revs. Luckily, we were again able to limp along to a lay-by. After waiting 5 minutes, the problems seemed to sort itself out and back in to storage she went. Today, we decided to check the MH out and within 100 metres another loss of power, this time more severe and even stalled. I manged to inch it back to storage in first gear but with very little power. This time I noticed the amber engine warning light was on with the displayed error message"check engine". I've ordered an OBD 2 Diagnostic Scanner to see if that reveals anything before being put at the mercy of another expensive garage / Fiat dealer. I've found a couple of old threads in this forum but was wondering if anyone else could shed any light on this issue and potential guidance? One last point of note, I've notice average mpg has dropped about 15% recently.

Could be a Fiat firmware update this was the case for ours which is a 2018 model

 

[Raul]

Air flow meter, sensor on the air inlet track, just before the throttle body. It can be cleaned with proprietary spray , or change it. Sometimes they short to earth and give wrong reading, ecu not receiving the data and can’t account the air flow to allow fuel to injectors. This is a easy fix if is the air flow sensor.
Same code is for Vauxhall’s, p0101 air flow sensor. Or should I say the dreaded p101. Vauxhall’s eat air flow sensors.

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[Pugsy]

Sounds like what i went through for 8 months with my 2011 boxer. I replaced the egr valve in September last year(total cost £165) and no problems since.
Hope you get it sorted.
Cheers Cris.
Ps i did try egr spray cleaner first but it only slightly improved it.

 

[TerryL]

Had pretty well identical problems on my 2007 Ducato 2.3 Multijet. Throttle body, it's a well known problem caused by excess rainwater falling over the electrical connections causing corrosion, especially if the Fiat recall about a missing water deflector hasn't been done. I suffered the expensive "must be that, we'll replace it" syndrome until I took it to a Fiat Professional service centre who immediately diagnosed it, replaced the part and the van has never run better.

I did quite a long story about it a few years ago but haven't seen the problem rise it's head again for a while.

 

[TheBig1]

Had pretty well identical problems on my 2007 Ducato 2.3 Multijet. Throttle body, it's a well known problem caused by excess rainwater falling over the electrical connections causing corrosion, especially if the Fiat recall about a missing water deflector hasn't been done. I suffered the expensive "must be that, we'll replace it" syndrome until I took it to a Fiat Professional service centre who immediately diagnosed it, replaced the part and the van has never run better.

I did quite a long story about it a few years ago but haven't seen the problem rise it's head again for a while.

less likely with a newer van though, but still a possibility

 

[PeteH]

Aside from the gearbox (judergate) issue, Our last 2007, X250 2.3 had some similar issues short of actally going into "limp" mode. The solution was the Modified Later EGR valve and the "Conversion" loom. Unfortunately Not cheap either.

 

[mavisnderek]

Just thought you helpful souls out there would like to know the current state of play and ask for a tad more advice. I decided to use Motorhome my breakdown cover to call out the mobile AA mechanic. I gave him all the feedback from this and other forums to point him in the right direction. Although a stationary engine rev test (2k revs) caused a repeat of the problem, albeit it temporary i.e. total loss power / revs, no fault was logged on the OBD. This together with a physical inspection of all the pipes, sensors and connections led him to conclude a mechanical issue, possibly the Throttle Body or EGR valve.

On checking my paperwork from the service in February when the air filter was replaced, I noticed that the Air Flow Meter & Sensor were replaced which explains why they looked in good condition.

So, I'm thinking of taking it back to the garage and asking them to examine / clean the Throttle Body / EGR valve. Do you think this is cost effective and worthwhile because at the moment I've lost confidence in driving the Motorhome and in truth would like some problem to be found. Also any ideas how labour intensive this work would be and idea of costs?

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[mavisnderek]

Quick addendum: is it worth forking out £200 on a carbon cleaning service?

 

[gus-lopez]

Quick update. ODB scanner revealed P0101 error "Mass or Volume Air Flow A Circuit Range / Performance". Not sure what this means, how accurate the diagnostics are or how expensive a fix it is, but now need to find a reputable mobile Fiat mechanic to do some investigative work / fix issue.

If it is the air flow sensor then you can do what Raul has suggested. one way to ascertain IF it is the Maf is when it does it unplug the maf.This reverts the ecu to the fail safe programme allowing normal use until maf is changed.

Air flow meter, sensor on the air inlet track, just before the throttle body. It can be cleaned with proprietary spray , or change it. Sometimes they short to earth and give wrong reading, ecu not receiving the data and can’t account the air flow to allow fuel to injectors. This is a easy fix if is the air flow sensor.
Same code is for Vauxhall’s, p0101 air flow sensor. Or should I say the dreaded p101. Vauxhall’s eat air flow sensors.

On checking my paperwork from the service in February when the air filter was replaced, I noticed that the Air Flow Meter & Sensor were replaced which explains why they looked in good condition.

Or perhaps they were looking for the problem then & changed some parts? Or why did they change parts without notifying you ?

Quick addendum: is it worth forking out £200 on a carbon cleaning service?

A new egr valve wouldn't cost that

 

[mavisnderek]

To be fair, the garage weren’t aware of the power problem as it hadn’t resurfaced for a few months and I’d not mentioned it. It pre dated the mice invasion and I saw the two issues as separate. The garage were simply trying to sort out the matter of the chewed up air filter and I agreed to its’ replacement and any other work to necessary to prevent any more damage. So given the timing of events, I’m not sure the mouse invasion and power issues can be connected. Think I need to bite the bullet and let them do some more diagnostic work to restore my confidence to drive.

 

[Raul]

Now you saying that, residues from the air filter damage, could of migrated towards the MAF. It’s a thin resistor wire and usually protected by a mesh. If any derbies makes their way on that resistor, it’s game over.
Simple to test this: turn the engine on, while running, umplug the maf. If any change in the engine rpm, then the maf is working. If no change, then is defective. This will induce a error code. If code is same and repeating with normal driving, then that’s more like the culprit.
EGR usually on a cold engine is shut. As it warms up it opens. EGR malfunction is obvious when engine has warmed up and working hard. If you go up hill, engine warm, it needs to operate to compensate for the emissions. It dumps exhaust gases back in the intake for re burn. on diesel they get sooted up quite quick. I have cleaned mine on a traffic several times. When is playing up it cuts power when you need it most. No code on this, just sometimes the glow plugs lights on dash. EGR will play up intermittent, and when the valve is well sooted, it will stop operating. If is blocked open( most cases), it dumps hot exhaust in the inlet continuously. In winter is ok ish, summer will choke it up, hence no power. Best performance is when shut. But it helps for quick warm up when open, ecu does that when cold outside. I have successfully blanked it of on our two combos in the past, and left it plugged in. On the trafic, is part of the throttle body and water cooled, difficult to blank it off.

 

[John Cheetham]

On several occasions over the last year, our Fiat Ducato 2.3 Multijet 150 Motorhome has completely lost power. Fortunately, this has happened whilst driving on local roads at no more than 30-35 mph. The first time was last July, we were able to find a lay-by and were rescued to a local garage who ran some onboard diagnostics and took it for a couple of test runs and said they couldn't find anything wrong. We had a few trips after this without incidence. In February this year, the Motorhome had a full service / MOT (at a different garage) before we set off on another trouble-free trip. Then, when taking it back to storage, another loss of power. Accelerator full to the floor, but no revs. Luckily, we were again able to limp along to a lay-by. After waiting 5 minutes, the problems seemed to sort itself out and back in to storage she went. Today, we decided to check the MH out and within 100 metres another loss of power, this time more severe and even stalled. I manged to inch it back to storage in first gear but with very little power. This time I noticed the amber engine warning light was on with the displayed error message"check engine". I've ordered an OBD 2 Diagnostic Scanner to see if that reveals anything before being put at the mercy of another expensive garage / Fiat dealer. I've found a couple of old threads in this forum but was wondering if anyone else could shed any light on this issue and potential guidance? One last point of note, I've notice average mpg has dropped about 15% recently.

We had something similar on ours. Just every now and then, quite frightening actually. It was part of a recall about 12 months ago, a potential fault on some engine vacuum system or something like that. We haven’t had a problem since then.

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[barny]

Morning Mavisnderek,
We had a similar problem for over two years. With our 2007 Fiat Ducato 2.3 Muliti Jet. This the short story, as the AA and their partners came out to the 'van 5 time over this period. Our 'van would go into "limp mode" just after the orange engine mangement light came on. It would drive at 2000 revs and pour black smoke from the exhaust. When i stopped i a safe place and turned it off, then left it for twenty mi s or so, it would drive as normal. Having the EGR valve, MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor replaced to no avail. I was told my a mate to check for splits in the two small pipes that come off the brake servo (left one) and the one that goes to the EGR valve (right one) i took the off and blew through them in a bowl of water, with a finger on the other end and one of them had air poring oit og a 3mm split. I saurced two new ones and ordered them and replaced them, whilst on holiday. It sid not solve our problem, but you could xheck them in case. I then spoke to a third garage who said that it might be the vacuum which is situated behind the stainless steel plate in the centre of the engine bay in the 12 O'clock position, this is where the two pipes terminate at. So I ordered a vacumm valve (not sure of it's proper name, at around £50. And I replaced myself as it is held on by two nuts with bolts, and remove the two pipes mentioned above including the electrical connection. And to refit just follow the removal process in reverse. That was it, then double checked my work and took the 'van on the motorway and got upto 2000 revs. NOTHING!!! I drove for 15 miles plus still NOTHING!!! I can not remember the Fault code which I got off a plug in diagnosis unit I bought and still have. I was told time and time again "It's the EGR" it turned out after spending around £600 it was not and or the MAS. We have (touch wood) had any issues since I replaced the valve which opens and closes the EGR valve we have had no other issues. Please see the images to assist. I truly hope you solve the issue and my post helps, so that you don't have the worry of not being able to us the 'van or breaking down. Please let us know how you get on.

 

[BOWHOUSE52]

Hi all I to had a similar problem after buying our Motorhome and went through all that everyone as been going on about changed this and changed that but still the same
Then I took Motorhome to the garage that services our car and a young rookie macanic noticed the actuator rod on the turbo was sticking so he stripped it down cleaned it and never had a problem since They reckoned the problem was caused by the Motorhome been parked up for long periods of time which is what happens a lot with Motorhomes in storage on damp ground Hope this is of some help to you

 

[TerryL]

Quick addendum: is it worth forking out £200 on a carbon cleaning service?

Had that done as part of my investigations. Didn't cure the fault but it did make the engine sound smoother and sweeter.

 

[mavisnderek]

Thanks again to all the helpful funsters who’ve contributed to my post; makes me feel very uplifted in these difficult and uncertain times. I’ll go away and see if some of the suggestions sort the problem out and will let you know how I get on

 

[barny]

I hope that you sort your fault out, i will keep and a look for your successful out come. Thank you for your kind words.

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[jockaneezer]

I had a MAF sensor fault show up on a car, changed the unit but it was just the same. Turned out it was one of those little vacuum solenoids that barny was on about. The twin core wire to it had rubbed through on a bracket and blown a mini fuse. A bit of heat shrink and a new fuse sorted it.

 

[mavisnderek]

Final update - a resolution has been found. Given all the very plausible suggestions in this wonderful forum, it eventually turned out to be a troublesome dead mouse lodged between the air filter and Air flow sensor pipework. We thought they had all been evacuated which is why I hadn't made too much of it in my post, but this one prevailed and randomly got sucked up in to the Mass Air Sensor every so often, causing all the chaos. Now why this hadn't been spotted at the service and when the air filter / sensor had been replaced, goodness knows. The garage I took it to today as a matter of routine checked all the pipework with a camera during their initial diagnostics and found it within minutes. Thankfully, they were honest and experienced and I was spared potentially a huge bill; total cost £118! I guess the mantra "always start with the easy solutions first" was never more true in this case. Without all your help and guidance, I would have been so lost trying to understand all the possibilities and been an easy picking for an unscrupulous garage. Happy Motorhoming, hopefully from 05th July

 

[jockaneezer]

From henceforth, I shall refer to that device as a Mouse Flow Sensor !

 

[intokenny]

Last year i had to have a new air flow meter, all worked fine after for a few months then had the same problem again. took it back to be looked at & the new meter was faulty. Replaced again & no problems since, that was about 10 months ago.

 

[TerryL]

One thing I've learned about this forum - you learn something new every day!

Glad you're problem was so simple, shame it wasn't spotted earlier.

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