Nothing to do with Mohos but van deliveries into EU will not be as easy for the man with the van?

Paulypaul

Paulypaul

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Pilote G740C
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Cut and pasted from an RHA newsletter:

Van regulation is changing for international operators – how will this affect you?

Vans above 2.5t up to and including 3.5t maximum gross vehicle weight carrying goods for ‘hire or reward’ internationally must have an International Operator’s Licence from the middle of next year.

Changes coming in from <Broken link removed> as a result of the Brexit trade deal will mean UK vans will need to carry a copy of the ‘UK Licence for the Community’ when moving goods internationally.

Van operators – we want to hear what this means for you so we can help the Department for Transport (DfT) understand the challenges these changes will bring.

Please take a few minutes to answers these questions by next Friday (30 April).

We’ll treat your personal information in the strictest confidence. We might contact you again for more information if this helps DfT with their assessments
 
About time someone did something to control "white van man". To operate a transport company of any kind, even in the UK, you should have to be suitably qualified.
 
Have they not been on about a taco in transit vans for a while now, but nothing happens.
 
A little scrote gets off his backside, gets himself a van, pays his way and taxes and then some shiney-a***d bureaucrat then concocts a load of mumbo-jumbo rules that discourages flexibility and initiative. In 10 years time you won't be allowed to drive a van unless you've a university degree in logistics. Don't you lot smirk, you won't be allowed a moho or caravan until you've done a 6 week course on campsite hospitality.
 
ElliesBoss said:
Explain how a driving licence compared to an operators CPC.
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You had a dig at "white van man". He has a licence so therefore qualified to drive it.
The actual operator is not necessarily white van man, Could that phrase even be classed as racist these days?
 
tribalbrit said:
You had a dig at "white van man". He has a licence so therefore qualified to drive it.
The actual operator is not necessarily white van man, Could that phrase even be classed as racist these days?
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Touched a nerve?
 
this wont hurt the big players in the market, but will seriously affect the multitude of one man operations. A friend of mine subcontracted to move loads of prestige and vintage cars all over europe, to and from auctions. The larger firms just cant give the personal touch and are not trusted by the car collectors. They dont want a big transporter with a dozen cars moving million pound treasures, just a small truck carrying just theirs. Between those jobs it could be trailers or pallets. So costs are guaranteed to rise

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TheBig1 said:
this wont hurt the big players in the market, but will seriously affect the multitude of one man operations. A friend of mine subcontracted to move loads of prestige and vintage cars all over europe, to and from auctions. The larger firms just cant give the personal touch and are not trusted by the car collectors. They dont want a big transporter with a dozen cars moving million pound treasures, just a small truck carrying just theirs. Between those jobs it could be trailers or pallets. So costs are guaranteed to rise
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Distance learning course costs a couple of hundred quid. You then can verify your knowledge about driving hours, axle weights, load insurance, VAT documentation etc, etc. Possibly get more business?Safety guards on machines in factories were going to put British engineering companies out of business. What have people got about trying to make transport safer?
 
Despicable said:
A little scrote gets off his backside, gets himself a van, pays his way and taxes and then some shiney-a***d bureaucrat then concocts a load of mumbo-jumbo rules that discourages flexibility and initiative. In 10 years time you won't be allowed to drive a van unless you've a university degree in logistics. Don't you lot smirk, you won't be allowed a moho or caravan until you've done a 6 week course on campsite hospitality.
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I remember when the word Logistics didn’t feature in moving goods all over Europe if in fact the World now it’s everywher.
 
tribalbrit said:
The driving licence does just that. Qualifies you to drive.
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There is a lot more to running a transport company then a driving licence
Not sure how many vans go into Europe ?But running HGVs into Europe is challenging ,not least that the money is pretty poor

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ElliesBoss said:
About time someone did something to control "white van man". To operate a transport company of any kind, even in the UK, you should have to be suitably qualified.
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I don't know what your grievance is, but you enviously know nothing about how the courier business operates. When I retired I spent a few years working as a continental courier transporting aircraft spares. I used a roadworthy vehicle, insured for hire and reward with 3rd party liability. Load insurance was covered by the owners, some parts were worth in excess of $70,000 and insurance would not have been possible, even with the dubious benefit of a distance learning course. There was no VAT involved, in fact the only paperwork involved proof of manufacturing origin and product test status. Everything covered by a CPC was totally irrelevant. I usually had 20/30 minutes notice to go to Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Bordeaux or anywhere I could get to before a plane, as fast as legally possible.
There were 2/3 major players in the business who you would probably classify as established reputable transport companies. One of those paid it's drivers speeding fines, and another had only recently stopped doing so.

I would respectfully suggest that you restrict your criticisms to those subjects you may have some knowledge of.
 
ElliesBoss said:
What have people got about trying to make transport safer?
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They could start by prosecuting at 51mph through the many motorway roadworks going on at the moment

That might stop the 'professional' hauliers from driving 6ft from a car full of kids because they were obeying the speed limit .
 
As a haulage operator I cannot operate unless I hold an operators licence. This isn't just something I applied for in the post? You have to satisfy the traffic commissioner that you are of good repute, have a certain amount of money, which obviously proves you have the means to maintain the roadworthiness of your vehicle/s, and prove that you have an agreement with a reputable service agent who will undertake your PMI's on your truck and/or trailer at the appropriate intervals (6,8,10 or 12 weekly) and have an appropriate operating centre where the vehicles will be parked.

But before all that, you have to be appropriately qualified and hold a CPC (certificate of professional competence) not to be confused with the driver cpc. Or you can have a suitably qualified CPC holder listed as your transport manager. Either way, the buck stops with the CPC holder.

For vans, I think its overdue. Sure, the owner drivers who are properly insured, operate good equipment and care about what they do, its going to be a ball ache having to go through the beaurocracy that goods vehicle operators of larger vehicles have had to do. For large well run companies it will just mean that their transport manager will have to hold a cpc and that the company can satisfy the requirements of the traffic commissioner.

But, it will stop the cowboys you see lining up at Dover and Folkestone with their battered Sprinters who probably aren't correctly insured and run day and night in unroadworthy motors.

It's like everything else though, the few who take the p##s spoil it for the ones who are conscientious and who run a proper business. But the customer may also benefit, because they should have some confidence that their goods are being transported legally and professionally.

Anyone can buy an old van, put a post on Facebook and offer their UK/European transport service who will carry anything you like...for cash.....not for much longer it seems?
 
I saw a not 3 year old polish registered sprinter for sale with 625,000 km on it , until they have tachographs in them they still be driving them 24/7 even with an o licence

Expect to see many more under 2.5t vans on the ferry

All most customers are interested in is the price
 
Wack said:
I saw a not 3 year old polish registered sprinter for sale with 625,000 km on it , until they have tachographs in them they still be driving them 24/7 even with an o licence

Expect to see many more under 2.5t vans on the ferry

All most customers are interested in is the price
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Until it goes wrong then they wonder why their consignment had been lost or damaged 🤔

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Paulypaul said:
As a haulage operator I cannot operate unless I hold an operators licence. This isn't just something I applied for in the post? You have to satisfy the traffic commissioner that you are of good repute, have a certain amount of money, which obviously proves you have the means to maintain the roadworthiness of your vehicle/s, and prove that you have an agreement with a reputable service agent who will undertake your PMI's on your truck and/or trailer at the appropriate intervals (6,8,10 or 12 weekly) and have an appropriate operating centre where the vehicles will be parked.
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What has that to do with running a single sub 3.5t van?
Paulypaul said:
But, it will stop the cowboys you see lining up at Dover and Folkestone with their battered Sprinters who probably aren't correctly insured and run day and night in unroadworthy motors.
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Why do you assume they aren't properly insured and are un roadworthy? At Heathrow there are frequent spot checks on vans on the only road into and out of the cargo area. I'd be very surprised if the there wasn't similar at Dover.
Wack said:
All most customers are interested in is the price
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Depends on the business. With AOG spares the most important factors are reliability and speed. If an airline has a plane booked to fly , it will cost them a fortune to put all the passengers up in a hotel while waiting for a replacement part. Plus most spares used to be rented, at seemingly exorbitant rates, which start as the part leaves the parts facility.

There were/are cowboys about, not all of them one man bands. I'll never forget the poor sod I met one night at a motorway services just outside Paris. He was in an ex Post Office van and didn't even know how to make a phone call. BUT, he was subbing for somebody who was subbing for a larger company who was a sub-contractor for one of the largest delivery companies in Europe.
 
Wack said:
They could start by prosecuting at 51mph through the many motorway roadworks going on at the moment

That might stop the 'professional' hauliers from driving 6ft from a car full of kids because they were obeying the speed limit .
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Totally agree about driving standards but not what the OP was about.
 
emjaiuk said:
What has that to do with running a single sub 3.5t van?
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Whether its a sub 3.5t van or a 44t artic, the principle is that if you are operating on a hire and reward basis, then you should be regulated, which should then hopefully keep everyone on a level playing field with regards to standards.

It should also reduce the cowboys being able to carve the job up and do anything for next to nothing, because their overheads are f$£k all, while the bona-fide operator can't compete because they're trying to do the job properly.

I'm an owner driver with a single unit and trailer but I still have to comply exactly the same as the big multi national logistics companies.
emjaiuk said:
Why do you assume they aren't properly insured and are un roadworthy? At Heathrow there are frequent spot checks on vans on the only road into and out of the cargo area. I'd be very surprised if the there wasn't similar at Dover.
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Air side access and logistics is totally different. Spot checks as you call them, can be carried out by the old bill and DVSA anywhere at any time, its the gamble that these cowboys take hoping they don't get pulled, nicked or issued with a GV9?

You don't have to be a detective to wonder whether some of the sheds waiting to get on the boat or train are legit. My point is that the moody operators are the type of people who don't care about running straight or whether their van is in good order, which is why the introduction of an O licence for hire and reward vans is a good idea in my opinion.
emjaiuk said:
Depends on the business. With AOG spares the most important factors are reliability and speed. If an airline has a plane booked to fly , it will cost them a fortune to put all the passengers up in a hotel while waiting for a replacement part. Plus most spares used to be rented, at seemingly exorbitant rates, which start as the part leaves the parts facility.

There were/are cowboys about, not all of them one man bands. I'll never forget the poor sod I met one night at a motorway services just outside Paris. He was in an ex Post Office van and didn't even know how to make a phone call. BUT, he was subbing for somebody who was subbing for a larger company who was a sub-contractor for one of the largest delivery companies in Europe.
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My dad used to be a buyer of aircraft spares and you are quite right, the cost of having a plane grounded is astronomical. However, it doesn't stop these big companies resorting to use whoever they can to get a part delivered. A few years back my dad's boss asked him to get a part delivered, like now, from Stansted to Prestwick. No couriers were available but my dad mentioned that I was a hgv driver and knew my way around and that he knew I was off work at that time. So he was told to ask me if I fancied a trip in my car. Money was blinding but was I insured for hire and reward? No, therefore in theory my vehicle wasn't insured for that journey as it wasn't SD&P. But that's how easy it is for absolutely anyone to do it.

As far as subbing is concerned. For 15 years we operated as freight forwarders on fridge work. Basically taking loads off Gist, Two Sisters Foods and other big companies, and subbing them out. I had my regular trustworthy subbies who you could rely on, who you new had the same level of insurance as us etc etc. But, on occassion when you had a load wedged up your arse and you can't find anyone to do it, you would start using companies who you wouldn't normally use. You knew they were legit otherwise they wouldn't be operating (O licence) but you would find out that they probably subbed it to someone who again, was legit, but did they gave the right level of insurance? Will they get the load delivered in one piece and on time? And how can they afford to run a motor if they're moving a load that's been subbed twice before they get it? And those are the questions you wonder about with an operator who is governed by the legislation surrounding the operation of goods vehicles?

You've only got to look at parcel deliveries. Hermes may use "partners" who are registered with them but that doesn't stop the "partners" subbing thw work out. We've had builders turn up in their builders van when they are quiet, we've had black cabs delivering parcels and even people with the seats folded down in their cars? Are they bona-fide operators and are they regulated...not at the moment?

As for speeding through roadworks 6' behind the car in front, that's not something exclusively reserved for 'professional hauliers', anyone on 2 or 4 wheels can be guilty of that, so that's got nothing to do with O licencing., albeit it's wrong whoever does it.
 
I still don't understand your argument, unless it's just sour grapes that sub 3.5t vans aren't subject to the same regulations you are. You might as well complain that pushbike couriers are competing unfairly.
Sub 3.5t vans are regulated, if they carry goods for reward they must have the appropriate insurance. The van has a stated GVW which must be adhered to. The van must comply with Road Traffic regulations with regard to mechanical fitness. There are national speed limits that apply to vans. What's an O licence going to add to that? As far as I am aware Goods in Transit insurance is not a legal requirement.

I wasn't talking about airside access, the police checks I was talking about are carried out landside on public (, or as public Heathrow roads are) roads. There used to be at least a 60% chance of being stopped either in or out, insurance infringements resulted in the immediate impoundment of the van.

Does the requirement for an O licence, CPC etc. stop the cowboys in the HGV sector? Not if the number hauled up before the traffic commissioners is anything to go by. Why should it stop sub 3.5t cowboys? If they're not complying with existing regulations why would they comply with O licence regulations?

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I've not got sour grapes, I just think it's beneficial for all concerned. The operators can have the confidence in offering their services knowing that their customers appreciate the value of a licensed operator, the customers then have confidence that their commodity is in professional care.

As far as your statement regarding goods in transit is concerned, well, I wouldn't dream of shipping an item with any type of haulier who didn't have GIT, unless I was paying cash and didn't care, and there lays the problem with unlicensed hauliers. If Joe public wasn't offered a cheap, cash, no questions asked service, there wouldn't be cowboys in any trade.

You hit the nail on the head with regards to cowboy licenced hauliers. Yes, there are still some cowboys out there, but as you rightly say, they're hauled up, eventually, in front of the traffic commissioner and their cards marked then, which inevitably ends up with serial offenders having their O licences revoked. But if they weren't licenced and held to account, our roads would be flooded with mickey mouse outfits compromising road safety etc.

I have no issues with couriers or white van men but I just think it can only make their sector of transport a safer, more evenly competitive market. Oh, and it should get rid of the numpties who give the couriers and white van men a bad name in the first place.
 
You haven’t answered the question as to how an O licence requirement will somehow cause those who currently ignore regulations to conform. I had GIT, but not to the value of the goods I carried. It’s the customers choice as to risk. Do you insure everything you send by post?
 
Wack said:
They could start by prosecuting at 51mph through the many motorway roadworks going on at the moment

That might stop the 'professional' hauliers from driving 6ft from a car full of kids because they were obeying the speed limit .
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Very well said there are real idiots driving around at the moment.
 
emjaiuk said:
You haven’t answered the question as to how an O licence requirement will somehow cause those who currently ignore regulations to conform. I had GIT, but not to the value of the goods I carried. It’s the customers choice as to risk. Do you insure everything you send by post?
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In the same way that the law of the land causes most people to conform to the law.....it's called enforcement.....not always totally effective but necessary.

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