My Ducato Clutch nightmare

[Nick's Ducato]

Bought a 2010 Ducato 2.3 multijet for conversion at 117,000 miles and ran with no problems to 124,000 miles.
Then first problem - clutch pedal - flat to floor, no clutch, no fluid loss. RAC and garage diagnosis Clutch master cylinder failure!
New master cylinder fitted, smooth pedal pressure on most of its travel restored, progressive clutch dis-engagement, purrrrfect!
50 mile later - pedal flat to floor, restored by vigorous pedal pumping - back to the garage to be re-bled.
Van returned, feels fine ..... for 15 miles!!!!! then starts to fail rapidly Manage to reach home, to be recovered by the RAC back to the garage.
Still no fluid loss. solution - Gearbox out to fit a New clutch and slave cylinder .... at great expense!
Van returned, feels fine for 120 miles, then suddenly pedal goes halfway to floor before picking up any hydraulic pressure.
This morning, barely enough pedal movement (about an inch) to dis-engage the clutch!!!!!
What else is there to renew?
What is going on?

 

[Grummyb]

Sounds like you might have a hair split in a pipe it's big enough to allow air in but not big enough to allow fluid out or possibly a union hasn't been nipped up tightly because I don't think there us any thing else to replace unless you have got a dodgy master or slave cylinder it's rare now a days but it does happen

 

[Nick's Ducato]

Thanks Grummyb, Following the first failure after replacing the master cylinder, I suggested to the garage it could be faulty and they replied as you, possible but unlikely!
My next option does seem to try replacing the pipes. There is nothing else, is there.
It is so frustrating, after 60 years of doing my own repairs, thought it might be safer to use the services of my local garage

 

[Pjdow]

Split pipe, there is not much left to change having done the clutch, master and slave!

 

[poppycamper]

Split pipe??? Can see where you are coming from with that as everything else seems to have been changed...BUT I would have thought with the pressure in the hydraulic system then fluid would seep through even the smallest of tiny hair crack.
But as OP says no fluid lose..
It seems to be going on long enough that they should notice dropping levels in reservoir.

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[ambulancekidd]

This isn't an answer to the problem, but if a clutch does that in a Ducato, try putting your foot below the pedal & pulling it back up with your toe.
Thats what various ambulance services around the UK have had to do to keep Ducato's going.

FIAT quality control at its best.

 

[Wingman123]

This isn't an answer to the problem, but if a clutch does that in a Ducato, try putting your foot below the pedal & pulling it back up with your toe.
Thats what various ambulance services around the UK have had to do to keep Ducato's going.

FIAT quality control at its best.

So if that has been a known problem on NHS ambulances for some time there must be a solution to the problem in the first place.
Do you have any further chapter and verse accounts to tell us what is going on?

 

[ambulancekidd]

So if that has been a known problem on NHS ambulances for some time there must be a solution to the problem in the first place.
Do you have any further chapter and verse accounts to tell us what is going on?

Sadly I don't know what the outcome was, thankfully I retired just as Ducato's arrived on the front line.
Most services have gone back over to Mercedes & that should tell us something?

 

[Raul]

Similar to this, a friend of mine had on a Nissan qashqai, the pedal was sinking without actuating the master cylinder. It was a fault in the plastic components on the pedal mechanism, the push rod was collapsing under pressure. The cure was new pedal mechanism. No fluid loss, because none was pumped.

 

[68c]

Is there any kind of automatic adjustment that may be slipping?

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[Clivefog]

Does pumping the pedal bring pressure up?

 

[tonyidle]

Utter incompetence by garage. Without fluid loss it would not be the slave. The usual cause is pedal not fully returning or, more rarely, master cylinder failure.

 

[rangi]

If I remember rightly, the Clutch Pedal is made of Plastic , with a kind of "Parrots Beak" where it actuates the actual slave cylinder.
Could it be, that after 124000miles the thing is worn?, plenty of slack?

 

[Landy Andy]

I would start by just bleeding the system. It could just be a trapped bit of air after the work. Sometimes can be sorted by propping pedal to the floor overnight/or long period.

 

[andyman]

Utter incompetence by garage. Without fluid loss it would not be the slave. The usual cause is pedal not fully returning or, more rarely, master cylinder failure.

I had the very same fault. It was the slave cylinder and there was no fluid leak.

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[tonyidle]

I had the very same fault. It was the slave cylinder and there was no fluid leak.

Your evidence or the garage? If the slave seizes operated or not the next stroke of the pedal is impossible without a fluid leak.

 

[Lofty1]

Had the same problem years ago cause was the master cylinder cap breather blocked,so every time you press the pedal it caused a vacuum lock and after a time no pressure at the pedal.

 

[andyman]

Your evidence or the garage? If the slave seizes operated or not the next stroke of the pedal is impossible without a fluid leak.

My evidence. Mates a mechanic and he done the repair. The only thing changed was the slave cylinder.
The pedal randomly was getting stuck down, lifting it with my toe and a couple of pumps we had a working clutch.

 

[Googlebot]

Sadly I don't know what the outcome was, thankfully I retired just as Ducato's arrived on the front line.
Most services have gone back over to Mercedes & that should tell us something?

I am afraid that’s incorrect. The new National Spec Ambulance is on a panel van chassis and 40k cheaper for it after the conversion cost. We have only used Ducato for some 8 years now and have 450 in the fleet. Generally our mechanics rate them highly and we have few issues. All services in England will be moving to panel vans as the older vehicles retire. Invariably these are Fiat and not Mercs.

I do wonder if you had a bad batch? There has been resistance from some Ambulance services who have a Mercedes only approach as the staff like the extra room of the box body which has led to some rumours that Fiat are bad but I can only speak from experience and say they are fine and much cheaper.

Hope the OP gets it sorted, it’s awful throwing money at something and it still not being fixed.

 

[tonyidle]

My evidence. Mates a mechanic and he done the repair. The only thing changed was the slave cylinder.
The pedal randomly was getting stuck down, lifting it with my toe and a couple of pumps we had a working clutch.

It still troubles me: if the slave stuck down lifting the pedal wouldn't free it - the master cylinder can't 'suck'. So lifting the pedal with your toe recharges the m/c and the next pump on the pedal would be solid. However that could potentially free a stiff slave only for it to stick again at some point. How does the pedal return? I assume there must be a return spring. The reason I ask is that first movement down on the pedal closes the m/c fluid reservoir port: further movement displaces fluid to operate the s/c. In reverse the last bit of upward pedal travel re-opens the reservoir port. If the port doesn't ever close pushing the pedal pushes fluid into the reservoir & nothing happens to the s/c. If the pedal doesn't fully return the port can't open to equalise s/c & m/c pressures and eventually the slave can't fully return.

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[2 Jabs]

Faulty replacement master cylinder?

 

[Mr Colpot]

I dont know the technicalities but I know we had the same issue - pedal to the floor - lifted manually then ok. Had the clutch slave cylinder replaced and all ok after that.

 

[ambulancekidd]

I am afraid that’s incorrect. The new National Spec Ambulance is on a panel van chassis and 40k cheaper for it after the conversion cost. We have only used Ducato for some 8 years now and have 450 in the fleet. Generally our mechanics rate them highly and we have few issues. All services in England will be moving to panel vans as the older vehicles retire. Invariably these are Fiat and not Mercs.

I do wonder if you had a bad batch? There has been resistance from some Ambulance services who have a Mercedes only approach as the staff like the extra room of the box body which has led to some rumours that Fiat are bad but I can only speak from experience and say they are fine and much cheaper.

Hope the OP gets it sorted, it’s awful throwing money at something and it still not being fixed.

The Ducato is a bad batch full stop. Hellish or almost non existent ergonomics, poor road holding, even poorer traction on slippery surfaces, brakes which have an interesting habit of catching fire & that's just the good bits lol.

Scotland did see the light & its Mercedes again. There is a brand new coach built wagon sitting on call at my door right now (my neighbour) & that's the second one since they got rid of the Ducato's.

I personally have ran both marques & the Mercedes Sprinter is simply in a different league from the Ducato based vehicles.
I'm not claiming that the Sprinter is perfect, but it is IMHO the sensible choice.

 

[jockaneezer]

A pal of mine had an issue with his Astra after fitting new brake pads. In a nutshell, when winding the caliper piston back in, he'd forced too much fluid back up into the master cylinder which had turned a cup seal "back on itself" Not sure if this could happen when fitting a clutch, but it could explain the "no loss of fluid" ?

 

[Guigsy]

A pal of mine had an issue with his Astra after fitting new brake pads. In a nutshell, when winding the caliper piston back in, he'd forced too much fluid back up into the master cylinder which had turned a cup seal "back on itself" Not sure if this could happen when fitting a clutch, but it could explain the "no loss of fluid" ?

With the Ducato, the fluids are drawn from the same reservoir aren't they? So possible?

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[Nick's Ducato]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

The latest - The Ducato is now back and working for the moment. The garage tell me they conducted a pressure test on the pipe between master and slave cylinder, at a much higher pressure than would be exerted by the master cylinder, which it passed, But they then found a damaged "O" ring on the connection to the slave cylinder. The pitting was minute, the mechanics were puzzled that it should have withstood the pressure test, unless it was working like a valve, letting air in, but closing under pressure!

To be fair to the garage, they do admit this problem has them puzzled, they are less than confident it is fully resolved and all the extra work has been done under warranty.

My next concern is that I now have a full 2 inches of free travel on the clutch pedal, I'm sure it was not as much as that before, what should it be?

 

[Grummyb]

I realised what the problem is , it's no use going to the garage and telling them you have 2 inches of travel on the pedal they won't understand what an " inch" is and the laptop won't tell em either

 

[Nick's Ducato]

This isn't an answer to the problem, but if a clutch does that in a Ducato, try putting your foot below the pedal & pulling it back up with your toe.
Thats what various ambulance services around the UK have had to do to keep Ducato's going.

FIAT quality control at its best.

That was the beginning of my troubles. Pedal sticking part down. I drove for a few miles using the toe under pedal method, until the pedal went flat to the floor and I could not put my toe under it. Could not even find the pedal!! That was a very un-nerving experience in heavy traffic.

 

[Andrew from D]

My Ducato clutch nightmare continues! Total clutch failure after 2700miles meant that after driving from south Devon to Newport south Wales and stopping, before pulling away with a fully depressed clutch it was impossible to engage gear with the engine running. By engaging gear whilst stationary and then starting engine it was possible to park the MH on its pitch. After finding the nearest authorised garage who would accept the vehicle 160 miles away in Plymouth it was transported to Vospers Comercial in Plymouth who were the only agents who have been of any help at all and that includes the retailers in Wellington who advised me it was a Fiat customer Services problem and to “call them” , as it would be two months before anyone could even look at it.
Vospers advised me that the advice from Fiat was that a new Cluth would be required and that it would be with them by Tuesday 25th May. To expedite the repair I was advised on the 24th the gearbox and clutch had been removed and that a bolt had “dropped out of the slave cylinder” and that was the problem. You may or may not be surprised that the part has not yet arrived and that the anticipated date is Tuesday 1st June. Currently I am also awaiting any advice on the date for the replacements of recalled steering Knuckles. All in all it can only be described as a totall shambles of customer service and care. Ask me if I would ever have anything to do with either Fiat or the retailer again and the answer would be NEVER!
bye the way you might be excused in thinking that my diatribe started with a typo, 270000 miles surely?
No it was not a typo the vehicle has travelled two thousand seven hundred miles!

 

[Portland]

I had the very same fault. It was the slave cylinder and there was no fluid leak.

I agree most likely slave cylinder, if you had pipeissues you would lose fluid