Lithium upgrade questions

[Bart]

So atm in our MH ( a 2017 Autosleeper Kingham) we have 350w solar fitted which is connected to a victron solar charge controller.

3 x 110 AH Varta lead acid batteries.

A 60amp sterling B2B charger ( now broken.)

A 1500w pure sine inverter used to power a microwave, hairdryer and laptop.

The Factory fitted AC - DC charger ( which I don't think is any use for lithium)

So our current lead acid set up is just not cutting it, that along with the fact that our sterling 60A B2B charger has packed in has made me decide its time to take the step to lithium, I am looking at this 60A B2B charger to replace the broken Stirling one, is Renogy and good?
<Broken link removed>

And either two of these TN100AH Lithium batteries

TN Power 100Ah Lithium Leisure Battery LiFePO4 (TN100)

The TN Power TN-LFP12.8V100AH lithium battery utilises lithium iron phosphate technology which produces a significantly better depth of discharge and number of cycles than conventional lead acid batteries. It is also up to 50% lighter than lead acid batteries, completely maintenance free and has...

www.tayna.co.uk

OR a single 200AH battery

12V 200AH POWEROAD BASE LITHIUM LIFEPO4 BATTERY (N/A) - Alpha Batteries

Poweroad- Time to go Lithium

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

Now I have a few questions
1. Are any of the batteries good? Are their different qualities of lithium batteries the same as there is with lead acid?
2. should I buying a larger single battery or buy two smaller batteries?

3.Apart from the lithium batteries is there any sort of controller that I need to purchase, or just buy batteries, set lithium profiles on solar controller and B2B charger.??
4. As for the AC-DC charger does anyone know if the factory installed charger is suitable or not suitable for Lithium??? If not then I have a separate 7 stage charger that I will install to charge the batteries when at home.

in our setup we also have the victron Bluetooth battery monitor with the shunt to measure everything, will this be able to measure individual cell voltages in the lithium batteries , ( is this something that I should make sure that I am able to monitor with Lithium batteries ?)

 

[RogerIvy]

Why not a single 280ah LifePO4 battery? … future-proof your system

 

[autorouter]

It's possible to buy single Lithium cells, and assemble them into a battery. It then needs a Battery Management System to balance the individual cell voltages, protect from high temperature and high amps, cut off as the voltage falls too low, and prevent charging below freezing point. Most of the batteries on sale as manufactured units - including the two in your links - will have the BMS already fitted inside, so no need to worry about that.

The Victron battery monitor will still give you useful information in the same way as for lead-acids. It can send accurate voltage data to a Victron MPPT, and temperature data if you have the temperature sensor fitted.

About 100Ah of Lead-acid battery is about the reasonable limit for heaving into/out of confined spaces, it's purely a size/weight thing. It's really the only reason a 200Ah lead-acid battery bank is split into two packages. I think a 200Ah LiFePO4 battery is around the same sort of size/weight as a 100Ah lead-acid.

The mains AC-DC charger is probably OK if set to a standard lead-acid profile (14.4V absorption, 13.4V float). Lithiums shouldn't be float charged, it reduces their life, but 13.4V isn't high enough for it to be a proper float charge, so it should be OK. However it will have no provision for stopping the charging at freezing temperatures, so you'd have to assess how likely that is to be a problem for you.

One of the big differences between lead-acid and lithium is that you definitely have to take steps to avoid charging lithiums below about 0C - some say set the cutoff at 5C to be sure. It should be part and parcel of a lithium profile, if the charger has a temperature sensor.

 

[EdRedBird]

Looking at Renogy too Amazon product ASIN B07SJGLGY8
Thanks for the battery links

 

[Bart]

Ivys 200ah of lithium is the point at where my wallet closes
autorouter thanks for the very detailed reply

ATM the only temp sensing lead I have is for my now broken Stirling 60a B2B charger so I'll be buying a temperature sensor for the new Renogy 60a B2B so that will take care of the temperature side of things as far as the B2B charging goes.
As for solar, my controller is a Victron bluesolar mppt 100 /30 so if I buy this lead, then I take it that will sort out the solar side of things.

Pardon our interruption...

Or if I buy the temperature sensor for my victron BMV 712 smart battery monitor? Will I still also need to buy a temp sensor for the solar mppt as well?

As for if I went down the route of assembling my own battery using cells along with a BMS is this the sort of thing I would look for as far as the cells goes? Or do you get "different" types of cells
<Broken link removed>

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[Raul]

Ivys 200ah of lithium is the point at where my wallet closes
autorouter thanks for the very detailed reply

ATM the only temp sensing lead I have is for my now broken Stirling 60a B2B charger so I'll be buying a temperature sensor for the new Renogy 60a B2B so that will take care of the temperature side of things as far as the B2B charging goes.
As for solar, my controller is a Victron bluesolar mppt 100 /30 so if I buy this lead, then I take it that will sort out the solar side of things.

Pardon our interruption...

Or if I buy the temperature sensor for my victron BMV 712 smart battery monitor? Will I still also need to buy a temp sensor for the solar mppt as well?

As for if I went down the route of assembling my own battery using cells along with a BMS is this the sort of thing I would look for as far as the cells goes? Or do you get "different" types of cells
<Broken link removed>

That cable is not for the mppt blue solar. It’s for the pwm controllers. Since your solar charger is not a Bluetooth model, it will not take a smart batt sense either. That leaves you with the shunt T sense. For that to work with the solar charger, it will take a a GX hub.
There are batteries with bms inside that have already the low temp charging protection. Not all have, so you will need to read the spec carefully. I think eco tree has, relion some models etc.

 

[autorouter]

As for solar, my controller is a Victron bluesolar mppt 100 /30

Are you sure your solar controller is a BlueSolar, not a SmartSolar? They look very similar.

 

[Bart]

Are you sure your solar controller is a BlueSolar, not a SmartSolar? They look very similar.

You are indeed correct, I just had a look, Smartsolar mppt 100 / 30 it is

 

[autorouter]

You are indeed correct, I just had a look, Smartsolar mppt 100 / 30 it is

In that case it has Bluetooth, and the 1 in 'BMV712' means that has Bluetooth as well. I'm not 100% certain, but I think that means the BMV can send voltage and temperature data to the SmartSolar. If the BMV712 has a temperature sensor wired to it.

 

[Bart]

That cable is not for the mppt blue solar. It’s for the pwm controllers. Since your solar charger is not a Bluetooth model, it will not take a smart batt sense either. That leaves you with the shunt T sense. For that to work with the solar charger, it will take a a GX hub.
There are batteries with bms inside that have already the low temp charging protection. Not all have, so you will need to read the spec carefully. I think eco tree has, relion some models etc.

Thanks to Autoroute I've just discovered that my solar charge controller is a Victron Smartsolar mppt 100 / 30, and it is Bluetooth, as atm I'm able to monitor both solar input and battery monitor information on the phone via Bluetooth using the victron app, I take it if I was to buy cells individually to make up a 12v battery, these would NOT have low temp charging protection unless I ensure I get a BMS system with low temp protection included

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[MichaelT]

Look at this thread (and many others on here) I have just fitted KS Energy underseat battery which has a BMS inbuilt with bluetooth monitoring etc. I am not going to fit a B2B at the moment as I want to see if the original set up works, I have a 150w SP which seems to charge OK. I have set on board charger to Gel setting after advice on here as charger does not have lithium setting, Votronic controller does so that is hopefully going to do most of the heavy lifting for charging whilst sat at home and on site.

 

[autorouter]

I take it if I was to buy cells individually to make up a 12v battery, these would NOT have low temp charging protection unless I ensure I get a BMS system with low temp protection included

Just when you thought it couldn't get more complicated, there's more than one type of low temperature protection. One type just disconnects the battery when the temperature falls. The other type doesn't actually stop charging below zero, it just reduces it to an extremely low level that is not damaging. The advantage of that is that the discharging still works as normal, so the battery isn't cut off (just when you might need it to power the heater controls). There's another type that directs any charging current into a heating pad instead of into the battery, and monitors the temperature until it's OK to charge.

 

[chrisandbev]

hi,
if you want to make up your own battery i have these for sale, only £500 for all four

 

[Bart]

Just when you thought it couldn't get more complicated, there's more than one type of low temperature protection. One type just disconnects the battery when the temperature falls. The other type doesn't actually stop charging below zero, it just reduces it to an extremely low level that is not damaging. The advantage of that is that the discharging still works as normal, so the battery isn't cut off (just when you might need it to power the heater controls). There's another type that directs any charging current into a heating pad instead of into the battery, and monitors the temperature until it's OK to charge.

Ty again for the info, this is all new to me, would you be able to find a link to where I could purchase one of these BMS that reduce the voltage to a low level, just so that I have an idea of what I need if I went the DIY route for the battery, and I take it I just need one of these BMS for the complete 12v finished battery, and not 1 per cell?

 

[Bart]

hi,
if you want to make up your own battery i have these for sale, only £500 for all four

Hi Chrisandbev are these new, and what's the warranty, thanks

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[Raul]

You are indeed correct, I just had a look, Smartsolar mppt 100 / 30 it is

In that case, you need just a smart battery sense networked with the solar charger. Then solar will stop when temp is below 0 or 5 deg, whichever you set it to.

 

[chrisandbev]

Hi Chrisandbev are these new, and what's the warranty, thanks

hi,

these are brand new grade a i got them to go in my last van as i wanted to put them under the bench seat, we have since then just changed vans so i do not need them any more.

 

[chrisandbev]

Ty again for the info, this is all new to me, would you be able to find a link to where I could purchase one of these BMS that reduce the voltage to a low level, just so that I have an idea of what I need if I went the DIY route for the battery, and I take it I just need one of these BMS for the complete 12v finished battery, and not 1 per cell?

you will need a 4s 12volt bms Daly is one of the best makes

chris

 

[autorouter]

Ty again for the info, this is all new to me, would you be able to find a link to where I could purchase one of these BMS that reduce the voltage to a low level, just so that I have an idea of what I need if I went the DIY route for the battery, and I take it I just need one of these BMS for the complete 12v finished battery, and not 1 per cell?

I don't know of a separate BMS that does this. I was looking at the 123BMS previously, which is a standard basic type, but in the end I went for a manufactured box. I'm sure others know more about this than me. I think it's important that the chargers cut off at zero, and the BMS protection is a last resort. However if it cuts off all the power below zero then it's a bit of a problem.

 

[chrisandbev]

I don't know of a separate BMS that does this. I was looking at the 123BMS previously, which is a standard basic type, but in the end I went for a manufactured box. I'm sure others know more about this than me. I think it's important that the chargers cut off at zero, and the BMS protection is a last resort. However if it cuts off all the power below zero then it's a bit of a problem.

i am not 100% sure but i think it stops the charging below 0 but you can still use the battery

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[Raul]

i am not 100% sure but i think it stops the charging below 0 but you can still use the battery

It doesn’t, as Autorouter says it has a relay and disconnects the hole battery, that’s charging and loads.
A more sophisticated bms like REC , has dual comands where it controls charging and loads separately. But that takes some knowledge to integrate properly. Many deploy separate controls before the basic bms. Under no circumstances you should rely on bms for normal cycle. Charge needs to know when is 0 deg and stop, loads needs to know when low and stop, and so on. Bms is your last line of safety. Before that you should not reach those safety parameters.

 

[RogerIvy]

Ivys 200ah of lithium is the point at where my wallet closes

I guess it all depends on where you buy from. Many of the 100ah batteries I've seen are around the £1200 price point, whereas it's quite feasible to build a 280ah sourcing locally supplied components for around £1000 or to risk sourcing from China for a lot less.

 

[RogerIvy]

Ty again for the info, this is all new to me, would you be able to find a link to where I could purchase one of these BMS that reduce the voltage to a low level, just so that I have an idea of what I need if I went the DIY route for the battery, and I take it I just need one of these BMS for the complete 12v finished battery, and not 1 per cell?

If I understand your question correctly a Daly Smart BMS will do as you ask.
Someone mentioned a 123Smart, those rely on external relays - so a low temp charge disconnect is possible but you must separate charge and load lines. 123Smart is certainly good and nigelivy could tell you his experience of their kit. He also has a Daly 200A Smart BMS on a second battery so can compare the two. I use a Daly 200A Smart BMS which is rock-solid.

Daly use a MOSFET which basically means that on the same cable they can cut charge but allow discharge. We set all our batteries to stop charge at 5°C or below and allow discharge down to -40°C. This same MOSFET allows us to program HVD (high voltage disconnect) which we set at 3.65v to help the battery cells last longer by not overcharging and a LVD (low voltage disconnect) to 2.5v to protect the battery from running so flat that cells are damaged. On my personal rig I set HVD to 3.55v (14.2v) and LVD to 2.6v

Lastly, if you are considering buying a Daly make sure you buy their Smart BMS which has temperature protection, not some of their other models which don't have temperature protection. And if you buy their SmartBMS be sure to include the Bluetooth dongle.

 

[Bart]

I guess it all depends on where you buy from. Many of the 100ah batteries I've seen are around the £1200 price point, whereas it's quite feasible to build a 280ah sourcing locally supplied components for around £1000 or to risk sourcing from China for a lot less.

If I understand your question correctly a Daly Smart BMS will do as you ask.
Someone mentioned a 123Smart, those rely on external relays - so a low temp charge disconnect is possible but you must separate charge and load lines. 123Smart is certainly good and nigelivy could tell you his experience of their kit. He also has a Daly 200A Smart BMS on a second battery so can compare the two. I use a Daly 200A Smart BMS which is rock-solid.

Daly use a MOSFET which basically means that on the same cable they can cut charge but allow discharge. We set all our batteries to stop charge at 5°C or below and allow discharge down to -40°C. This same MOSFET allows us to program HVD (high voltage disconnect) which we set at 3.65v to help the battery cells last longer by not overcharging and a LVD (low voltage disconnect) to 2.5v to protect the battery from running so flat that cells are damaged. On my personal rig I set HVD to 3.55v (14.2v) and LVD to 2.6v

Lastly, if you are considering buying a Daly make sure you buy their Smart BMS which has temperature protection, not some of their other models which don't have temperature protection. And if you buy their SmartBMS be sure to include the Bluetooth dongle.

Which battery cells did you buy and where from, as the DIY route is now my preference.

 

[chrisandbev]

Which battery cells did you buy and where from, as the DIY route is now my preference.

HI,
4pcs LiitoKala 3.2V 200Ah LiFePO4 battery 12V battery Lithium-iron phosphate, i purchased them from e bay all i have done was to take them out of the box, checked there voltage, took a photo and then put them back in the box.

I also have a Daly 18650 Smart LiFePO4 4S Battery Management System (BMS) 12V 200A with Bluetooth dongle, temperature sensor and on-switch that i was going to use still in the box, i got the 200a to be future proof. this i will sell for just £120 to cover my costs.

chris

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[RogerIvy]

Which battery cells did you buy and where from, as the DIY route is now my preference.

We’ve tested a number of different cells with varying success (documented on our Youtube channel which I’ll DM if you want it). We settled on EVE, CATL & Winston being the best in terms of value for money versus performance.

EVE is our favourite LiFePO4 cell manufacturer as you can build a 280AH battery with 200A BMS for around £700 (landed cost in the UK, if you’re prepared to take the risk of purchasing from China). So far we’ve found EVE cells to meet and slightly exceed stated capacity.

CATL is very good as well and similar price versus performance (and capacity) to EVE.

Winston is better performing than both EVE & CATL, but considerably more expensive and there are not many suppliers. Interestingly Winston understate their capacity significantly. You can buy them from GWL in Prague and they seem to be the only non-Chinese distributor for Winston. GWL were not pleasant to deal with when we bought from them, but they are just the distributor. Winston makes a very good LiFePO4 cell. Nigel has a set of 200AH Winston cells in his MH and when he capacity tested them, they consistently delivered around 270AH. Talk about understating!

We are currently waiting for our second bulk order of 200 x EVE 280AH cells from China, which is what we build our Offgrid OPS280 batteries with.
We also have a set of Lishen cells coming from China to compare against EVE & CATL as well as about 4 other sets of unknown brands just to see if we can pick out any inexpensive, good cells.

Buying unknown brands is hit and miss and you can get some good results, but it is risky. You are best placed to buy some of the more well known brands (e.g. EVE, CATL, Winston or Lishen) from resellers with good reviews on Alibaba or Aliexpress. If you want to buy from China most likely you will need to buy from AliExpress as Alibaba generally do bulk orders and prefer to deal with “retailers”.

One other thing to remember when buying from Aliexpress is that Aliexpress is classified as a third-party payment processor, so we have had cases where we bought products from China that we disputed with Barclaycard and Barclaycard were “not able to do anything” because there was a third-party payment processor between us (the customer) and the merchant that we bought the products from. I don’t know the law well, but supposedly Barclaycard said that this fell outside of their coverage under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and that Alibaba (as the payment processor) would need to claw back the money, which they did not (in some cases) siding with the reseller.
All that to say, bear in mind that even if you pay with a credit card, you may not be as “protected” as you think you are.
We’ve had similar results from Barclaycard when paying through Paypal with the same credit card.

 

[nigelivy]

If I understand your question correctly a Daly Smart BMS will do as you ask.
Someone mentioned a 123Smart, those rely on external relays - so a low temp charge disconnect is possible but you must separate charge and load lines. 123Smart is certainly good and nigelivy could tell you his experience of their kit. He also has a Daly 200A Smart BMS on a second battery so can compare the two. I use a Daly 200A Smart BMS which is rock-solid.

Daly use a MOSFET which basically means that on the same cable they can cut charge but allow discharge. We set all our batteries to stop charge at 5°C or below and allow discharge down to -40°C. This same MOSFET allows us to program HVD (high voltage disconnect) which we set at 3.65v to help the battery cells last longer by not overcharging and a LVD (low voltage disconnect) to 2.5v to protect the battery from running so flat that cells are damaged. On my personal rig I set HVD to 3.55v (14.2v) and LVD to 2.6v

Lastly, if you are considering buying a Daly make sure you buy their Smart BMS which has temperature protection, not some of their other models which don't have temperature protection. And if you buy their SmartBMS be sure to include the Bluetooth dongle.

I've tried Daly Smart BMS (100A, 150A, 200A & 300A versions), 123 Smart BMS & Overkill BMS and they're all good and very capable. If your requirements are to have a high current draw (e.g. over 120A) then 123 Smart BMS and Overkill BMS are not an option as Overkill is limited to 120A and 123 Smart BMS is limited to 100A if you use their relays.
They are all very similar in terms of performance and functionality - all have temperature protection, high & low current disconnect protection (if you use the relays from 123 Smart BMS) & all have Bluetooth capability.

In terms of installation, Daly & Overkill are the easiest to install and pretty straightforward. They’re very similar in how they’re installed. Anyone with basic electrical knowledge taking care not to short anything can install them.
123 Smart BMS on the other hand is MUCH more involved and more complicated to install. You will need the ability to solder wires to the circuit boards for each cell. I thought I was being careful and actually landed up shorting something on the 123 Smart BMS when I first got it and had to send one of the cell boards off to 123 Electric to repair, etc..

123 Smart BMS has the best and most “finished” phone app, IMO. It feels more professional than the Overkill and Daly apps.

123 Smart BMS support is excellent. I actually bought the product from their distributor GWL in Prague and had such a bad experience with GWL that I ended up contacting 123 Electric (manufacturers of 123 Smart BMS, who are based in the Netherlands) for support and they were superb. I’ve since had a few dealings with them and I cannot sing their praises high enough in terms of customer service.

In terms of price, I’m not sure 123 Smart BMS is worth the money. It’s 2-3 times the price of the others and I don’t think it is that much more reliable to warrant that. You also need to factor in buying the relays to get the disconnect functionality, which I didn’t realise until after I had bought the BMS itself so that’s an extra £100 just for that functionality, which IMO is a basic requirement for a BMS.
I think Daly is the best value for money and I have had very good performance from them, so can’t fault that.

We contacted Daly with a query that we had with their 150A Smart BMS where the polarity displayed on the app was the “other” way around (charge showed as a negative current and discharge showed as a positive) and they were very proactive in trying to help, explaining how to upgrade the firmware, providing video tutorials, etc..

Overall, I think Daly is the best value for money versus performance/installation. Especially if you have high current draw requirements.

 

[nigelivy]

I should add that one advantage to the 123 Smart BMS is that it has the ability to integrate with charging systems (that can support that) which is attractive to some people. I've personally never tried it but I know people that tie in their Votronic chargers into the 123 Smart BMS and use signals from their charges to trigger the BMS relays, etc.. It's quite functionally rich from that pov. I've always just made sure that the high/low voltage disconnects on my BMS are set correctly and that my charger is using the correct charge profiles.

 

[Bart]

HI,
4pcs LiitoKala 3.2V 200Ah LiFePO4 battery 12V battery Lithium-iron phosphate, i purchased them from e bay all i have done was to take them out of the box, checked there voltage, took a photo and then put them back in the box.

I also have a Daly 18650 Smart LiFePO4 4S Battery Management System (BMS) 12V 200A with Bluetooth dongle, temperature sensor and on-switch that i was going to use still in the box, i got the 200a to be future proof. this i will sell for just £120 to cover my costs.

chris

Hi Chris I have my eye on 4 x 280 ah cells to make a 280ah battery, will the "Daly 18650 Smart LiFePO4 4S Battery Management System (BMS) 12V 200A with Bluetooth dongle," that you are selling work OK with a 280ah battery? I take it the 200A refers to a maximum draw of 200 amps?

 

[Bart]

Ivys & nigelivy wow where do I start to say thanks for the massive very helpful replies,
Taking on board what you'd have said I think I am going to get 4 x 280 ah CATL cells along with the Daly 18650 Smart LiFePO4 4S Battery Management System (BMS) 12V 200A with Bluetooth from chrisandbev as long as all is compatible and I source the cells OK, my max draw is the microwave at around 125 amps which works flawlessly in my current lead acid setup

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