Lithium Batteries anybody using them?

[colyboy]

Lithium batteries if you are using them.

Was it straight change over or were there other expenses?

What do you think of them?

Colyboy

 

[Ronny]

Not yet but I always carry a Noco Genious 12v 400amp Lithium pack with me. Comes with jump leads usb/micro usb so phones and ecigs can be charged when out and about. Weighs about a pound and lives in the rucksack. It’s very light but they are expensive replacements.

 

[eddie]

Lithium batteries if you are using them.

Was it straight change over or were there other expenses?

What do you think of them?

Colyboy

We are selling 15 - 20 a month, which is about a 100% increase than about 12 months ago

The Dometic units we were selling at over £2K a pop were just too expensive and too new. Our Sterling Lithium Batteries are much better priced at £1250 including VAT

It is very rare to be able to swap one conventional battery for Lithium, a couple of campers we have been able but we normally have to do something to the on road charger to make everything work as it should

We have reports of very happy users once the work has been done though

Edit, I am also a user, but not really had chance to spank them yet, which is when they really come into their own!

 

[dpsuk999]

I have 4 of these running my inverter and would never go back to conventional lead acid/gel. I can pull 200amp out of them and they don’t drop below 13.1v. The only additional item I had to purchase was the BMS as the charger is also the inverter (Victron Multiplus).

 

[jongood]

I have 4 of these running my inverter and would never go back to conventional lead acid/gel. I can pull 200amp out of them and they don’t drop below 13.1v. The only additional item I had to purchase was the BMS as the charger is also the inverter (Victron Multiplus).

View attachment 286618

Wow sounds a good setup. Expensive?

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[Pausim]

I have a Relion RB100 and I am pleased with it. The battery management system is built in. I added a Sterling charger with a LiFePO4 profile. I also added a Votronic battery to battery charger, again chosen because it had the right charging profile but also because it has Schaudt EBL compatible settings.

 

[dpsuk999]

Wow sounds a good setup. Expensive?

Well I started on my ‘Victron’ journey a while ago so been adding various Victron products over the course of the last couple of years so I’ve spent a fair few thousand but hopefully an investment. My inverter battery bank is completely separate from the hab/engine batteries apart from the new style Schaudt B2B which I chose because it has LiFePO4 settings and is compatible with my EBL220.

The Victron Lithium’s dont have built in BMS so had to buy one but not expensive in the grand scheme of things £100 compared to £900 each for the batteries. Added to this is the Victron Multiplus charger/inverter, Victron Smart MPPT and Victron Smart BMV702 battery monitor.

I’m really pleased with the performance of the batteries, they charge so much quicker, withstand large pulls of amps and can take them down to 10% (not done that yet)

 

[Zigisla]

I am one of @eddievanbitz very happy users. Coupled with the B2B; fitted at the same time, I am very pleased with them so far - 2 months. We don't travel far during the day and Jane is a Hair Dryer and Ceramic Straightener user every day. When the Hair Dryer is turned on you can see a voltage drop on the Solar Bluetooth dongle App, but not below 12.5V and then recovers straight back to 13.1V. B2B puts that back in on the road in no time. I don't have a battery monitor to see how many amps are taken, I'll just continue to use it like I have until it gives up - if that's possible. I've even added 240v appliences - Tassimo that I wouldn't have used on my AGMs before; I am that confident I wont kill them.

 

[eddie]

I am one of @eddievanbitz very happy users. Coupled with the B2B; fitted at the same time, I am very pleased with them so far - 2 months. We don't travel far during the day and Jane is a Hair Dryer and Ceramic Straightener user every day. When the Hair Dryer is turned on you can see a voltage drop on the Solar Bluetooth dongle App, but not below 12.5V and then recovers straight back to 13.1V. B2B puts that back in on the road in no time. I don't have a battery monitor to see how many amps are taken, I'll just continue to use it like I have until it gives up - if that's possible. I've even added 240v appliences - Tassimo that I wouldn't have used on my AGMs before; I am that confident I wont kill them.

Tut Tut! No battery computer

 

[Zigisla]

Tut Tut! No battery computer

Over rated and would take over my life. Rather be in the dark......


When can you fit me in

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[GPW]

The current performance of Lithium batteries is way higher than lead acids, even AGM so that's a definite advantage of a sort for inverters.

The capacity at regular current draws is not however that much more than an AGM, an AGM you can drain to 20%, a Lithium to between 10 and 20% defending on type.
The weight saving is good, 13kg vs 30kg, that's a saving of 17kg or so on a 100Ah battery, but on a 3.5Ton van maybe not such an issue.

However AGM is difficult to beat on safety and cost, £170 gets you into quite a nice 100Ah one, so the main issue with Lithium seems to be it's suitability for higher power inverters, drawing 200A isn't something a 100Ah AGM wants to really be doing (200 x 12 * 0.9 = 2kW ish load).

Most people however overlook the fact that both Solar chargers and the Victron Multi also come in 24V, 36V and sometimes 48V models and the higher voltage is the key. Apart from the Lithium battery the cables and switching FETs in the inverters all struggle at 200A and you really need to avoid Chinese cheapies when you get to that type of load current.

E.g: If you instead bought three 50Ah AGM batteries (mobility batteries perhaps) and wired them in series you get a 36V battery at at equivalent energy size of 150Ah (Energy in 36V 50Ah = 12V 150Ah). To pull your 2kW out of that is then simply 1/3rd of the current (Watts = Amps x Volts) so instead of drawing, routing and switching 200A you are now dealing with 66A which is rather easier. Additionally for the resistances (batteries, cables, FETs) the power dissipated is of the formula Power = Current x Current x resistance (P = I^2 x R) so you reduce the power loss by NINE times (36V, four x for 24V) and thus waste less power.

So next time you are updating the electrical system consider moving up in voltage for the AC system side, the only issue you have is managing the interface between the 12V side and the 24V or 36V side and the charging from the van alternator for which you need a multi voltage B2B system (does anyone make one?) and possibly a small (token - e.g 33Ah) 12V hab battery for the heater etc.

It may seem complex to go to a higher voltage but it's not too difficult for a decent electrician, and much easier if you have a decent solar system so you don't need to worry about alternator charging (just use Solar + EHU on an inverter-charger designed for 24V or 36V).

 

[eddie]

Interesting post, and possible an option for an off grid lodge or cabin but no practicable for the average motorhome. You would need the whole 36 VDC system isolated, its only function to be to supply the inverter. The weight would be an issue, not seen any decent quality 36 VDC inverters and frankly the idea that solar could replace on road charging is a non starter for most of the year, and June July & August there is virtually no need for mains anyway.

I have three 150w solar panels on my camper and this time of year they are maintaining my leisure batteries, but were I to use my inverter set up, the recovery time would be measured in days not hours.

Lucking I have decent on road charging, transferring up to 200 amps, with a recorded average of about 70 amps on tickover, which of course the lithiums are happy with being able to soak up 50 amps a piece

The Victron Multiplus is a charger inverter, so I get the advantage when on mains of "power assist" which is the main reason I opted for an inverter charger. Should the site have a 6 amp supply and the camper requires 12 amps due a a mains device suddenly being turned on, the charger, stops charging (thus reducing the overload on the mains supply) and switches to invert mode to make up the missing amps

Once the additional load is turned off, the inverter automatically switches to charger mode, which can charge up to 80 amps and replaces the power taken from the batteries when it was in "power assist" mode

Much easier than keep asking for the mains supply to be re-tripped lol

 

[eddie]

Over rated and would take over my life. Rather be in the dark......


When can you fit me in

At the NEC when we discussed this, your wife said she wanted a new kitchen before you were allowed anymore funds released for the camper! Your bigger, she is more dangerous! You loose

 

[GPW]

not seen any decent quality 36 VDC inverters

My fault, I hadn't realised 36 was not covered unlike 24V and 48V! That'll teach me to read
I was mentioning a mains biased system (For curlers, hairdryers etc) as that was given as a big advantage of the lithium batteries - if you're not running a big inverter they appear to be rather pointless over an AGM.

The Victron Multiplus is a charger inverter, so I get the advantage

I have a Victron Multi 500/24V in another vehicle, they also support 48V, you just specifiy the voltage (12, 24 or 48V) when ordering, and you can chain the 800VA upwards models together so up to 3.6kW is achievable from a setup using the Victron Multi inverter-chargers.

Charging a 48V pack from 12V via a split-charge relay is not actually difficult, DC-DC converters with >90% efficiencies are easy to buy, but you will only safely be able to float charge them (13.8V x 4 = 55.2V) from the van power (simple converters to do that cost about £6). At 48V however you start to get into electric shock territory, so while resistance related power losses are 1/16th (6.25%) that of a 12V system it needs careful installation!

If you start paying £650-900 per battery a 48V AGM system starts to look extremely attractive in price and the lower current draw from the AVG (1/4 for 48V) means they last longer and give more energy - i.e. it's very kind to the batteries.

 

[GPW]

At the NEC when we discussed this, your wife said she wanted a new kitchen before you were allowed anymore funds released for the camper!

I explained to my wide that a new camper already has a new kitchen LOL...

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[tacr2man]

I explained to my wide that a new camper already has a new kitchen LOL...

I think replacement of a "d "with an "f" could save leading to another "d" , ps hide the hammers @GPW

 

[TheDogMan]

My two 200amp gel batteries were running down quicker so a I asked for them to be checked when it was seviced and they confirmed it, not bad really at 6 years old, they have had a hard life as we have two TV's, satelite tuner and 6 mains sockets running off the inverter, I had three lithium Transporter energy batteries fitted with 10 year warranty on them, done one weekend with them and they were brilliant never went below 13.2, Oaktree did me a great price in comparison to others I have seen including any changes to the charging regime and the fitting, just to make it worse the chassis battery died shortly afterwards so... not being able to lift and fit a battery myself next to the engine I rang a couple garages to get a price for supply & fit but they were not interest in installing in a 7 ton Iveco, the Iveco dealer in Coventry would but in 3 weeks time !!, I looked at Tayna batteries they had the 115amp Yuasa Cargo I wanted and they had started a fitting service, They delivered the battery to a local ish garage I did know existed and the standard charge with no complications was £15 and worth every penny of it. If you are running an Iveco this guy is brilliant and specialises in Iveco Daily's and he is on the A45 near Dunchurch & Rugby, its called AutoDiag

 

[GPW]

I think replacement of a "d "with an "f" could save leading to another "d" , ps hide the hammers @GPW

Oops - yes a typo, she's actually quite thin!

 

[TheDogMan]

My two 200amp gel batteries were running down quicker so a I asked for them to be checked when it was seviced and they confirmed it, not bad really at 6 years old, they have had a hard life as we have two TV's, satelite tuner and 6 mains sockets running off the inverter, I had three lithium Transporter energy batteries fitted with 10 year warranty on them, done one weekend with them and they were brilliant never went below 13.2, Oaktree did me a great price in comparison to others I have seen including any changes to the charging regime and the fitting, just to make it worse the chassis battery died shortly afterwards so... not being able to lift and fit a battery myself next to the engine I rang a couple garages to get a price for supply & fit but they were not interest in installing in a 7 ton Iveco, the Iveco dealer in Coventry would but in 3 weeks time !!, I looked at Tayna batteries they had the 115amp Yuasa Cargo I wanted and they had started a fitting service, They delivered the battery to a local ish garage I did know existed and the standard charge with no complications was £15 and worth every penny of it. If you are running an Iveco this guy is brilliant and specialises in Iveco Daily's and he is on the A45 near Dunchurch & Rugby, its called AutoDiag

I should have said that my 3 Transporter lithium batteries are 100 amps each

 

[GPW]

Ampere Hours (Ah), not amps!

The current (quantity of electrons per second) is Amps, the size of the battery determines how many hours it can push them around the circuit at that rate for!
Charging then is the act of pushing them back round to the start for another go...

There are also ratings on how the Ah was measured, C20 means over 20 hours, so a battery can be 55Ah C20 and also 60Ah C100 - i.e. you can get more out if you do it slowly.

Confusingly C20 also has an entirely different meaning wrt lithium charging rates as CXX is also used as a maximum charge rate, I.e. a C10 2.2Ah Lipo can be charged at 22 Amps.

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