leisure battery warning light flashing - what should we do, step by step?

Lindan said:
Thanks, everybody.
I couldn't see a 50 amp fuse anywhere else - nothing in the battery area. Photos show whats there.
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I looked again at your photos of the EBL where you state the 50 amp fuse is apparent, but I cannot see one. In the most recent post you state as above 'anywhere else'. Have you found a 50 amp fuse somewhere then and if so, where is it?

You could fit a lead-acid battery again, or a gel that will have greater discharge resilience. If you plan to go long-terming and cannot fit a second battery, I would go for a gel, rather than a lead-acid. If you can get two batteries in, then either will do but the gel will again have greater discharge ability - i.e. you can risk running it lower than you can with a lead-acid (roughly 75-80% versus 50% discharge level: gel versus lead-acid).

Regarding the live lead, it is true that both the starter and habitation batteries +ve are connected to the EBL. However, there should be a relay within the EBL that disconnects them when the engine is not running. For safety, you need to find the main fuse (either 30 amp or 50 amp) that is in the +ve line from the habitation battery to the EBL. It is shown in the circuit diagram and must be there somewhere.

As I mentioned before, I would email Udo Lang and ask for manuals and advice.
 
Lindan said:
Thanks, everybody.
the old owner had it for years with the same wet cell battery - it came with it so can we assume it is ok to fit the same again.
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Philip (JeanLuc) and myself are under opinion the charger is optimised for a Gel battery, this will tend to overcharge a wet cell battery shortening it's life and cause excess gasing.[/QUOTE]
We also found out its not ok to just take it out because the wires will still be live. Is this because its attached to the starter battery?
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It is only connected to the starter battery when the engine is running, if you take it out just insulate the connectors on the ends of the leads, aslo with it out do not connect the van to the mains as it could damage the charger.
 
Hi guys
Much food for thought here. The photo of the 50V plug has its own switch, shown on the 3rd of the 3 photos on page 1 of this thread, but its called 50Hz so is this different? Will email yer man in Germany but can't go to Telford - too far. Our mobile habitation service caravan man guy has agreed to meet us in Surrey and fit a new batt on sat, but has not mentioned anything about using a gel. He has said about £100 for new batt so this seems right to me for a wet cell.
And there is nothing but metal all around it! so we will leave it wired in for now.
Many thanks for now.
 
The quality of batteries varies a lot if you intend to go off grid you need a reliable battery,
I wouldn't make a decision on the type of battery until you have spoken to Udo. If the charger is optimised for a Gel it will wreck a wet cell in a short time.
 
50 Hz is the frequency of the mains - not a current rating for a fuse. There is no large fuse on the EBL panel.

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In that case I don't know where the 50V fuse is. However I checked with the seller and he had the same wet cell battery for the 4 years he owned it, which is the one we killed, so I would assume its configured for wet cell now, otherwise would the battery not have given up the ghost long ago?
We have all the receipts (2 owners kept everything) and there is nothing for any battery in English, and it was imported in 2007, so all the receipts before the are in German.
We need a tutorial frm whoever fits it in any case. Thanks again for your advice and help!
 
I think hymers of that age were fitted with gel batteries as standard.
I would really go for good quality gels again. Worth it in the long run.
I do wonder if your fitter was just going for the cheaper option.
Am also a hymer owner trading up to another hymer lol
 
Having looked again at the picture of your battery, it is clearly a UK-supplied product fitted after import. Searching for the product code from the label 6110LB brings up a Platinum brand leisure battery which now has the code LB6110L with a capacity of 100Ah (not 110 as might be expected from the designation). Searching on the pictured EAN Bar Code number also brings up the following: Platinum Leisure Plus Battery LB6110L 100Ah - i.e. the same result.
The battery is a wet lead-acid type using calcium technology (most standard types do) and it is a sealed 'maintenance free' battery.
If it were me replacing the battery, I would either go for a gel Exide ES900 (given you have only one battery and this will withstand greater discharge) or a Varta lead-acid LFD90 which uses more sophisticated plate technology than most lead-acid batteries (I have two of these in my Hymer).
The Exide Gel will cost around £150-160 and the Varta will be around £90. According to the EBL manual, it will cope with either but as Lenny has said, the standard fitting on many Schaudt-equipped vans was gel.
Concerning the mystery fuse - it will be there somewhere - just make sure the fitter finds it and pulls it before changing the battery. Also, the main switch on the EBL (next to the 230v 'kettle lead' input) needs to be switched off first.
 
Thank you JeanLuc and Lenny!
Gel sounds the right thing for us, then we may get away without any solar panel. The Exide ES900 you reccommend has on the Tayna website 80Ah. Having still not been able to fathom amps and amp hours, you say this battery would be better than the 100Ah in the old battery? On paper this seems wrong. What is the reason for the 80Ah gel being preferred by you guys? Just so we understand.
 
Also, I just looked under the drivers seat - there is space there for a 2nd battery. Do we need a gel to go inside the cab (pushing the battery price up to £300+) or would the sealed lead acid be ok under our bottoms, like the Varta LFD90 as reccommended. I have emailed Udo, and will post what he says. We are looking at a 12 month trip on a budget, so need to make good, preferably not rushed, decissions now!

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Here is what Udo said, when I asked him about deciding between gel and wet cell:
In the living areas the best would be to have a fully covered battery. Please check for this the safety rules in your country to use battery in the living area.
For lead acid batteries you must maybe use a fent tube to ourside and cover the battery.the EBL is able to charge lead-acid batteries.
Its best is to charge the battery once a month for 24hrs. on the mains, when the motorhome is not in use.There is no switch to gel or others!!!
To use any othere battery type in the leisure area, you can add any additional charger directly to the battery you like to build in your camper.
When you have a 10A charger mounted, please double in mind the charging current at the A display at the panel in the camper. (we do not understand his meaning here)
I would buy one 100Ah battery - maybe AGM type and put an additional charger to the battery with a AGM charging line and 10A output. (and again can anyone explain what he means - one battery but 2 chargers?)
In any case it is clear that we can use any battery type and our particular electroblok will deal with it. As he recommends getting one battery rather than 2 in the answers here, (I asked if 2 were best) there is now this new possibility about the charger and getting an additional charging line instead of a 2nd battery.
It is most likely we will ask for two sealed wet cell or one gel battery as recommended by you guys here, plus a solar panel if necessary later rather than the AGM and additional charger suggested here by Udo (which seems too complicated for us to fathom and manage), unless anybody can simplify this approach for us.
I will attach the electroblok manual and the control panel manual in German sent by Udo so others might benefit.
Many thanks once again!
 

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To start with forget about AGM batteries without a special charger they won't last long even then I wouldn't recommend them for leisure use.

A 110 A/H wet cell will give you 55A/H of useable power at 50% DOD (depth of discharge)., shouldn't discharge a wet cell below 50%
A 80A/H Gel will give 64A/H of useable power at 80% DOD, Gel's are OK down to 80% discharge.
The gel will have up to twice the life of the wet cell.
 
First don't panic second post help third large glass of cider and wait for the funster to rally:D ps Welcome aboard;)
 
There are several points raised in your last post - I shall attempt to answer them all.
As the battery is in the living area, Udo is playing safe in suggesting you comply with German requirements and fit a gel battery as these are spill-proof. In practice, you can use either gel or flooded lead-acid. If using lead-acid, they must be vented to the outside; even if using gel, it is good practice since a failing gel battery can still emit gas when on charge. This happened to me and the van was filled with hydrogen sulphide and who knows what else? I then switched to sealed lead-acid and had venting tubes fitted. More recently, when I last needed new batteries, I chose Varta LFD90 which are 90 Ah sealed lead-acid. If you go the lead-acid route, make sure you choose a sealed (maintenance free) type.
Udo is suggesting you might want to fit an AGM battery since they are now very popular. I would not since the EBL you have is not optimised for that battery type and can only charge at a maximum current of 10 amps. The reason Udo is talking about an additional charger is related to this point. The more recent EBL system is designed so that you can add an additional Schaudt charging module to cope with larger battery banks. Unfortunately, your EBL104 does not have this facility so he is suggesting, correctly, that you would need to increase the charging current significantly to deal with an AGM battery by means of an additional charger. Since this would not be an integrated module, but an extra charger, you would have to remember to double the apparent charging current shown on the control panel - assuming you fitted an additional 10 amp charger.
Leaving aside AGM batteries (and neither Lenny nor I would recommend them to you), if you fit an additional battery, you will have a bank with a capacity in the range of 160Ah - 200Ah depending on the batteries you choose. So, if we consider lead-acid for a moment, Varta recommend a charging current of 10% of the nominal battery capacity. Ergo, a 10 amp charger would be suitable for batteries up to 100Ah. You can fit more capacity but bear in mind that it will take twice as long to charge them and may put more strain on the EBL. Unfortunately, your EBL is one of the older varieties; in the early 2000s, the EBL99 or EBL100 was being fitted and these had a charging current of 18 amps enabling them to cope with two habitation batteries.
So where does that leave us? I would recommend a gel battery in order to get the maximum amount of usable energy from a single battery without straining the EBL. If you are happy to risk a bit of strain and accept that it will take quite a long time to recharge your battery bank (perhaps 48 hours) then go for 2 lead acid - I would recommend 2 of the Varta LFD90 model - they are the same dimensions as the Hymer-fitted Exide Gel and have a good reputation. The former single gel solution would give you around 60Ah of usable power (80Ah x 0.75) gels can withstand being discharged down to 25% of their nominal capacity. The latter lead-acid solution would give you 2 x 90 x 0.5 = 90 Ah of usable power. It is generally regarded as good practice not to discharge a lead-acid battery below 50% of its nominal capacity - at least not by much and not very often. I think I said earlier, that the Varta batteries have a special plate technology that enables them to be recharged quickly and may allow a bit more safe discharge.
If you opt for a single gel route, I would recommend getting a solar panel fitted to give you the best chance of keeping topped up. As an aside, there is only really one solution for winter use and that is to plug in to the mains. I know some manage without but they have a huge array of solar panels on the roof and / or run a generator.

Hope this helps.
 
Hello and yes, this is really helpful, thanks.
We are feeling much more confident about the battery action now, thanks to you guys on this forum. Totally get it about the other charger, and also seems best to go for one batt. The single thing now that will help with the decision is the testing of the % left in the battery. The the battery we have now is not dead, it still has something to give up (the little step still comes down, albeit slowly) and the lcd lights still work, so we needn't have panicked. But our meter shows in amps and fractions. So it is just in the green (safe) half. I will get a picture to show the control panel we have with batt 1 (starter battery) and Batt 2. In the case of getting a gel battery, would we be able to watch it go down to the 1/4 level, in which case it would be in the red and still be ok? Since this panel and EBL might have been installed for gel battery preference in 1996, might this warning light come on at the topping up time for gel, which is different from wet cel, do you think?
Should we avoid charging deep cycle batteries before they need it, and always aim to charge once its right down? if we are on hook-up, is should we disconnect the battery from its charger if it is not at its minimum? Probably another thread here, and we are not ready to ask these questions yet!
We will get the gel now and a solar charger later, when we are in a sunny country!

ps Thanks for the welcome!

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sorry - 2 of the same pics above!
here is the other one
 

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I'm afraid the control panel is not quite so easy to read. When you press the battery test button (up / batterie 1 for Starter; down / batterie 2 for Habitation) the meter is showing the voltage held by the battery. Note, you have to check this with nothing else turned on and ideally, after the battery has been in a resting, unused, state for a while. When a 12v battery is fully charged, the meter will show around 13 volts (or slightly less once the battery has settled after charging). By the time it gets down to 12v the battery is fairly well discharged. I think the reason Schaudt calibrate and colour the meter as they have, is to allow for the fact that many people may test the voltage whilst other things are running (e.g. lights) and this will have the effect of drawing down the measured voltage. If the EBL detects that the 'in-service' voltage has fallen below 10.5V it will shut down the system and you cannot switch it back on until the battery has been recharged.
So, to answer your original question, don't let the battery voltage fall below 12V if you have a gel. This chart may help in understanding (although I have seen a few different versions of such a chart with lightly different figures).

p.s. Your present habitation battery is knackered - the voltage indicates this.
 

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Lindan said:
Should we avoid charging deep cycle batteries before they need it, and always aim to charge once its right down? if we are on hook-up, is should we disconnect the battery from its charger if it is not at its minimum?
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No, always charge as soon as possible, even if you have only used a small amount of the available capacity. The only thing worse than discharging a battery more than the recommended 50/80% is leaving it in that state for any length of time.

The idea of discharging batteries fully before recharging comes from some of the earlier dry cell rechargeable batteries used in cameras, laptops & the like. They had a memory effect, which meant that if you only half used their capacity before recharging, after a time they would only give that half capacity. You then had to very slowly discharge them completely to get them back to normal. Newer dry cell batteries don't suffer from this effect, so for most batteries in current use, no matter what type, the advice is to always charge whenever possible.

What is still important is that the batteries should reach a fully charged state on a regular basis. That will be behind what Udo is saying about connecting to the mains charger once a month. @jonandshell can advise on this point - he specialises in traction batteries for fork lifts & the like & I know that it is very important that they reach full charge overnight before being used the next day.
 
Hi Lindan

From what you've described of the failure of your leisure battery; "driving 40 miles then having 10v" also "plugging in at home but the alarm going off as soon as unplugged", i strongly suspect that at least one of the six internal cells has totally failed. I'm not trying to alarm you but if that's correct, it's the worst (and most dangerous) type of failure to have.

My advice is to ensure that no attempt is made to try to charge the battery at all, either from the EHU or the alternator, the reason being that the batteries voltage will likely be raised to 14.4v which equates to raising the voltage of the 5 remaining cells to 2.88v each, far beyond their permitted maximum of 2.4 and akin to trying to charge a good battery at almost 17.3v. I'm not trying to alarm you but this could result in dangerous consequences.

I personally would physically isolate the battery from the van by disconnecting the leads, essentially to ensure it isn't charged (or the voltage raised) at all. our current B644 is a newer generation to yours and has the 50a fuse fitted to the base of the seat next to the battery, our previous older than your van (1985), had a large isolation lever mounted to the bulkhead, either way try to find what yours has then disconnect the leads. i personally use a couple of lengths (about 8 inch) cut from a mountain bike inner tube and as i remove the lead from the battery, i insert the end of the lead into the inner tube, then fasten a cable tie around each end of the tube, resulting in the end of the lead being totally encased in rubber (i have multiple batteries), but it does ensure the leads would be isolated should anything try to put a charge down them. i hope this makes sense.

I understand Udos email differently; he states
"For lead acid batteries you must maybe use a fent tube to ourside and cover the battery.the EBL is able to charge lead-acid batteries." (this implies to me he is talking about wet lead acid due to venting, and that the charger supports it)

then he says;
"There is no switch to gel or others!!!" (if it supports gel/agm i would expect a switch but there doesn't have to be if the charger is intelligent enough)

followed by;
"To use any othere battery type in the leisure area, you can add any additional charger directly to the battery"

after which he starts talking about adding a charger to charge AGM batteries.

to me that isn't clear cut and doesn't specifically mean you can use any type of battery with your existing electroblok charger, but it depends what he means by "lead acid", technically wet, gel and agm are all lead acid, but usually lead acid refers to wet lead acid.

if by lead acid Udo means wet lead acid then i understand that wet is what you can use and for any other type, including gel and agm, you need to fit an alternative charger. (this is what i think he means).

if by lead acid he means all lead acid (wet, gel and agm), he could be suggesting adding a second charger if using agm because agm can be charged at a far higher rate than wet, and adding a second charger lets you take advantage of that. (i don't think he means this).

be aware that; charging a gel or agm battery using a wet lead acid regime will definitely damage them, also gel have a very similar but stricter regime than agm, meaning agm can be charged using a gel regime without any real negative consequences.

I think you need to:
1. disconnect you current battery totally.
2. determine exactly which battery types your charger supports.
3. then research, get advice from the guys here, and then plan and implement your battery strategy.

I personally use agm batteries, they are spot on for leisure use, offer all the advantages of gel and more, they cost £105 pounds each when new (100ah each), are charged by my electroblok on the gel setting, and will be ten years old this year without showing any signs of giving up. once a year i charge (maintenance cycle) them in the house using a Ring RSC16 charger which specifically supports agm.

sorry for going on so long and hope this helps
Lee
 
Just to clarify the post from Lee27, your EBL supports both gel and wet lead-acid. I have checked this in the manual. If fitting lead-acid, make sure you use a sealed variety. There is no selector switch for gel versus lead-acid because the EBL104 does not have such a complex charging program as the later EBLs. The maximum voltage during charging is 14.4v which is fine for a gel (wet lead-acid benefit from a slightly higher voltage but will still charge at up to 14.4v. Your EBL104 does not support AGM adequately in my view.

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Lee27 said:
I personally use agm batteries, they are spot on for leisure use, offer all the advantages of gel and more, they cost £105 pounds each when new (100ah each), are charged by my electroblok on the gel setting, and will be ten years old this year without showing any signs of giving up. once a year i charge (maintenance cycle) them in the house using a Ring RSC16 charger which specifically supports agm.
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You have been very lucky, it is well known that AGM batteries charged by an Elektroblock on the Gel setting does a good job of wrecking them. Both my AGM batteries failed within a week of each other after 18 months, this is fairly common in vans from the Hymer group where they have been fitting AGM's since about 2012 and using the Gel setting to charge them. A quick search of the German forums will soon show you how bad the problem is.
 
I have to say that what JeanLuc says does support what I got from Udo. I left out the bits I asked him, so the questions he answered are out of context and so could be misleading. Here is the full version:

It is a sealed wet cell battery (in photos) but JeanLuc suggested that it should have a gel fitted because it is a Hymer A Class (I think in Germany you call these B Class?), and
in the living areas the best would be to have a fully covered battery. Please check for this the safety rules in your country to use battery in the living area.
For lead acid batteries you must maybe use a fent tube to ourside and cover the battery.
could be on the wrong setting. I cannot see any gel or lead acid setting switches so he suggests I ask you. He says:

...since the charging programme is probably more suitable for gel, I'd get gel rather than wet cell. The quality of batteries varies a lot if you intend to go off grid you need a reliable battery, I wouldn't make a decision on the type of battery until you have spoken to Udo. If the charger is optimised for a Gel it will wreck a wet cell in a short time.

the EBL is able to charge lead-acid batteries.
There is no switch to gel or others!!!



So if I get a gel replacement for a sealed lead acid, do I have to change anything manually on our electroblok?
there is no changing option!


He also suggested to ask if you have an English manual for this Elektroblok you could send, and also one for the control panel? ...please see the manuals attached, in German.
to use any othere battery type in the leisure area, you can add any additional charger directly to the battery you like to build in your camper.
When you have a 10A charger mounted, please double in mind the charging current at the A display at the panel in the camper.

I attach photos of the electroblok, battey casing and the control panel.
thank you.

If you can advise in any way, we would be so grateful. I have just seen there is also a space under the drivers seat for a second battery. Should we need to hurry to replace our dead battery with 2 lead acid ones or can we wait 4 weeks for our servicer to install the right gel ones?
I would buy one 100Ah battery (maybe AGM type and put an additional charger to the battery with a AGM charging line and 10A output).
....
So thats the relevant part of the email. I can see that I might have misunderstood it, through the use of the word 'switch', which could imply a button, or a changeover, with 2 completely different meanings. I thought he meant it can charge anything with no switch (button) required, but he might mean that it cannot be switched to gel from the wet sealed lead acid type, which is the type we have. I have asked him to clarify, and will post the answer here again but the more I read it the more I thik its the 'cannot be switched' meaning, which would explain why there is no switch on the EBL.
 
Thanks, JeanLuc. I fully trust your knowledge and hope you are right about the gel being ok, but will wait for Udo to confirm.
ANd Lee27, we are not charging or driving it till we have a new battery. Still can't find the fuses (Udo said its 30A and 2A) to disconnect the battery - there is nothing in the battery well or anywhere near. Can anyone post a picture of what this looks like?
cheers
 
You have interpreted Udo's reply correctly in my view. I just disagree with him regarding AGM and Lenny has direct experience of problems using them with and EBL (apart from the most recent ones). AGMs differ between manufacturers regarding their recommended charging regime. I know that Varta recommend a charging current of 25-35% of the nominal capacity for theirs and the EBL cannot deliver that (neither can many other motorhome chargers I would guess). They also recommend a maximum charging voltage of 14.8v for AGM and the EBL cannot deliver this either so an AGM battery will never be fully charged.

Just to set your mind at rest, I have checked the EBL 104-3 manual again and translated the relevant bits. The first image shows the relevant section concerning battery type.

upload_2016-5-3_14-50-12.png


The last line translates as: 'Suitable batteries - Lead-Acid and Lead-Gel of at least 35Ah capacity'.

The next image shows the charging programme for your EBL 104. It is a relatively simple programme whereas the later EBLs have a switchable second stage that can last for 6-8 hours when set to 'Gel' and about 1 hour when set to 'Lead-Acid'. Flooded lead-acid batteries charge quickly, so you can imagine that if you set it incorrectly so a lead-acid battery gets 8 hours in stage 2, it will 'cook' it. The same applies if using a fast charging AGM with an EBL set to 'Gel'. You do not have to worry about this as yours is not switchable and there is no long-dwell second stage.

upload_2016-5-3_14-57-18.png


This part translates as follows

Example of the charging voltage process:
  • the batteries are loaded to 14.4v
  • then autoswitching to a charge preservation voltage of 13.8v
  • if the battery voltage falls below 13.2v, the charging voltage is switched to 14.4v
n.b. 14.4v is the optimum maximum charging voltage for a gel battery.
 
Thanks again
Udo has confirmed: your EBL is an EBL 104.x
This means there is no switch to select gel type battery charging.
So please use a lead acid battery or use an additional charger for the Gel battery.
He asked me to make it very clear that this information is because it is a EBL 104.
So JeanLuc, although we do not fully appreciate all the charging technical aspects yet and there sees to be some discrepancy between what you and Udo think we will be able to speak to our installer to gauge his experience, and at the very least will be able to get a battery, gel if possible but if not a gel, a suitable sealed lead-acid. And a solar charger later.
Many, many thanks guys for all your contributions!
Linda N

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I would always defer to Udo; he is the Schaudt expert. However, I wonder whether he might have made a typo in his latest reply. The EBL104 manual clearly states that it is suitable for gel or lead-acid. I think he might have meant AGM when referring to the need for an additional charger. Perhaps worth confirming with him?

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
The final word from Udo is to get an additional 10 amp charger if changing to Gel. So we'll go with the sealed wet lead-acid type proposed by you before which doesn't need anything additional, JeanLuc.
Many thanks!
 
Like @JeanLuc says, to me also Udo mentioning the extra charger for Gel is a typo he meant AGM, your Hymer would have had a Gel Battery as OEM fitted by Hymer.
 
Ok - sorry to do this to you kind folks, but an independent source which specialises in fixing and supplying chargers and alternators (but not batteries) and has a great deal of experience with all EBLs, based in North Wales has confirmed: 'An EBL104 does not support Gel or AGM. The Gel will have a very short life, AGM even shorter.
That is why Udo said you then need an auxillary charger (unplugging the EBL 104 charger from the mains) with a Gel and an AGM charge profile. That applies to both Gel and AGM.'
They then suggest a Honda Eu10i, although their website shows they are are very impressed by the Varta LFD90 you guys suggested earlier.
Now that I am less ignorant with the battery types and charging regimes thanks to this thread, all I need to do is work out why a 90 Amp hour battery is preferrable to a 110 Amp hour one! I will look at other threads for the answers!
 
One more point - and this might be important so probably worth saying - my electoblok is EBL104-2, not 104-3 which is shown on this post earlier, so this may be why there are discrepancies between the Schaudt teams and forum posters.
I think I get it now why the VartaLFD90 is as good as any other 110Ah battery! Will order now. Man coming to fit it in one week.

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