Judderists!

[Wildman]

John, well I'm in the market right now, I have two weeks rental booked in April to help with my 'learning curve' I have decided to kick all the Sevel factory into touch, Fiat & Peugeot definately and I'm dubious about the Citroen too (Have in the past been fan of Citroen)

VW might be a tad small and Ford don't do an auto box so that just leaves me with Renault and Mercedes (maybe just a tad over my budget)

A kind member on one of the forums has given me some good info on the Renault Master, allegedly their auto box gives better mpg than the manual. That surprised me.

Don't forget the possible problems with Renault base vehicle warranty, looks like a manual Ford, or a Merc. Maybe go for an older merc, I did.

 

[weejohnw]

Jitters or judders?

Hi folks, Have had Dethleffs A class with 2.3 l fiat since August last, but I have only read about the judders. In over 4000 miles we have not experienced any judders at all, either going forward or in reverse. Does this only effect some vans? We have tried to induce it in case we should join the waiting list- by reversing up an incline but no judders.
What percentage of 2.3l owners are actually complaining?
Regards John

 

[simsy56]

I am not condemning the motorhome part of the vehicle, in fact some of the conversions are stupendous! Its just the base vehicle I cannot abide! Remember when motorhomes were based on Talbots? Wherever do you see a Talbot now? apart from the fastidious motorhome owner who has loved and pampered his pride and joy all the way. Remember the last model of the FIAT, when doors came away from the cab at any reasonable speed, allowing wind noise to accompany you on your journey, and 5th gear problems! And now! we get the "charachteristic" judder, water ingress into the engine area, and who knows what else? No thanks, FIAT, l will find a better base vehicle that will give adequate fuel consumption, good brakes, and good road holding, and comfort.

 

[thorley]

thorley

Hi all in answer to the question about the built in vibrationon on the latest fiat ducato 2.3 chassi (IS THIS A RECALL) The answer is NO, Ive been in contact with fiat customer err care their very polite and know how to deal with complaints thats their job. I was,nt aware of the problem when my Burstner Solarno was delivered to my door, in October 07. but as soon as i drove this £40,000 motorcaravan off my drive i knew.Having owned a lovely van before this purchase i was gutted. fiat are full of hot air its always next month. I tried to contact them today on 008003428oooo but no answer. I tried oo8oo34281111. and got cut off. So i phoned my nearest Fiat agent Foxfields 150 miles away, The latest from Craig Kennerdy service manager,their technition has been to Italy and came back with this information. The gearbox will receive a replacement reverse gear. So thats it, the latest info that i know of, but weve been here before, but all you gearbox experts out there already knew this problem would occure if the cog was too small and so did fiat from day one. So why have they stalled for so many years. If you do own one of these vans register now and get a case number.

 

[WillH]

I had my first chassis service this week and asked the service manager for the latest info. He told me the new 2.3 's had a fix and the 130 van is back on the market but there is no word yet of recalls, He believes it may be a new, or recon, gearbox. it's one big expense for fiat so they must be working on a cheaper fix. All we can do is wait and see.

I am now finding the judder is manageable and have adjusted my driving style accordingly to prevent clutch fade.

As an aside, my windscreen washer are rubbish and they have ordered a pair of new jets, everything else was okay.

rgds
Bill

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[thorley]

Are they saying they are going to recall ALL vehicles? I thought that they originally said they were only going to fix vans who had reported a fault. I made the descion to avoid all the Sevel based motorhomes when we bought our last van partly because of Fiat's lack of action on this problem. I know it was only a small amount of owners who suffered compared to the amount they sell but what about the vans that don't get 'fixed' will the second hand value of these be affected?

Hi These letters the MH owners are talking about are only the owners who have a Case Number. ie the people who have complained. FIAT will not make this a recall for damage limitation reasons. My letter states that feedback from their dealerships say that new engine mounts have resolved customers concerns. Just another play on words, if this is true why does my dealer say that a new reverse gear will be needed.
Jusj picture the scene in the Ferrari pits. You remember that vibration you had Micheal on the gearbox? Er just over 2years ago. if my memory is correct. Well weve fixed it. Sorry i mean our technitions have. It turned out to be your engine mounts at a cost of £30 Would you believe it NO
these engine mounts are a bright idea and will go so far to address this otherwise expensive problem. Im certain that FIAT will declare that after this work is done this lesser vibration will fall within their limits. The letter i quoted from was in reply to an angree letter to them. entitled PROMISES PROMISES and dated 27 march 2009.

Finaly just dont sign Anything. Thorley

 

[Diabalo]

Just booked mine in for a service, the service manger said it's down for engine re-mapping to give better torque at lower revs to try and help with the judder, but as said above I can manage it by altering my driving style when reversing. Thought it best to log it with Fiat tho incase it went pear shaped in the future.

 

[paulus the woodgnome]

thanks for that Diabalo mine is going in for its service tommorrow and i will get them to log it in at fiat

 

[Braunston]

Hi,

How are any of you going to sell your MH's with all of these negative reports i wouldn't think anyone would be remotely interested in buying a second hand one let alone a new one, the reported problems must surely be having a direct affect on the resale values, i think someone should look at a campaign to try and get some financial compensation,

 

[scotjimland]

Hi,

How are any of you going to sell your MH's with all of these negative reports i wouldn't think anyone would be remotely interested in buying a second hand one let alone a new one, the reported problems must surely be having a direct affect on the resale values, i think someone should look at a campaign to try and get some financial compensation,

You might think that, but many never even consider the base vehicle when choosing a motorhome.. they get carried away by the floorplan, interior furnishings and accessories.. same with RVs .. often it's the glitz inside that sells it ..

I'm always harping on about choosing from the base up.. 'outside the box' .. but it falls on deaf ears most of the time..

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[Braunston]

Hi, Jim

I do hope you are right for those people who have them sake, as if the prospective new owners do start to look at the base vehicle there could be lots of very disappointed people trying to sell their secondhand MH's

You might think that, but many never even consider the base vehicle when choosing a motorhome.. they get carried away by the floorplan, interior furnishings and accessories.. same with RVs .. often it's the glitz inside that sells it ..

I'm always harping on about choosing from the base up.. 'outside the box' .. but it falls on deaf ears most of the time..

 

[Kon tiki]

I was concerned enough at the time of buying our last van to look at the base vehicle a lot more closely. We probably wouldn't have bought the van we did if there hadn't been so much negative comments about the Fiat problem & their failure to come up with a solution for all vans not just the ones who reported the fault.
As it is I am more than pleased with how the Renault performs, & after talking to many owners of Fiats from all different countries on our last trip I found that about a quarter of the ones I spoke to had experienced the problem of either juddering or not being able to reverse a a slow speed. One German guy I spoke to said he wouldn't entertain reversing unless absolutley neccessary & would drive until he found a roundabout

 

[olley]

same with RVs .. often it's the glitz inside that sells it ..

I'm always harping on about choosing from the base up.. 'outside the box' .. but it falls on deaf ears most of the time..

Hi Jim with the smaller RV's like mine you have a choice of Ford or Workhorse, as either are good; whats their to choose but the glitz?

Olley

 

[scotjimland]

Hi Jim with the smaller RV's like mine you have a choice of Ford or Workhorse, as either are good; whats their to choose but the glitz?

Olley

I'm referring to proper RVs Olley .. not toys ..

 

[Wildman]

Hi,

How are any of you going to sell your MH's with all of these negative reports i wouldn't think anyone would be remotely interested in buying a second hand one let alone a new one, the reported problems must surely be having a direct affect on the resale values, i think someone should look at a campaign to try and get some financial compensation,

A campaign for compensation will never happen. I know of one such claim who had all the engineers reports under the sun, a week before the case came to court Fiat settled out of court with a handsome payout to include all expenses, on the agreement that a confidentiality clause was signed. So rest assured compensation is being paid. But the confidentiality clause prevents it being made pubic and is a very effective damage limitation exercise.

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[Losos]

Apparently it's a characteristic of the vehicle - which translates in my mind to 'we designed and built a vehicle with the characteristic that will damage your gear box and clutch. Please buy it!'

If I was in the market I'd be looking at Renault, Mercedes and Iveco bases. Definitely not Fiat / Peugeot.

1) - 'Characteristic of the vehicle' really means that the reverse gear ratio is too high. (Change of 'cogs' needed)
2) - It probably won't effect let's say about 60% of users but that still leaves 40% who will be in trouble at some stage
3) - When I buy my MH I will occassionally have to reverse up to my drive on a fairly steep hill and on a hairpin bend which means I would be in the 'most at risk' category
4) - With point 3 in mind I am only looking at Mercedes and Renault now.

 

[DESCO]

I feel sorry for the unfortunate people who have brought them, many have now been waiting for 2 years for a fix and still are no further forward. Fiat will not give any answers to questions. I feel I was lucky as when I purchased my new van I did not like the look of the new Fiat front, and knew nothing of the problems, I only found this out later.

I purchased a Laika X595C on a Ford base and have found it to be well up to the task.

I know that the way this has been dealt with has put me off any Fiat group vehicle in the future, this means almost any UK motorhome is off my list while they only build on Fiat.

Dave

 

[scotjimland]

I feel sorry for the unfortunate people who have brought them, many have now been waiting for 2 years for a fix and still are no further forward.

I do too, but why are people still buying them .. ?
It's one thing to buy in ignorance quite another to stick your head in the sand ..

 

[DESCO]

Another point that I do not like about this saga, although I have been following this on a few sites neither Fiat, or any manufactures or dealers seem bothered enough to answer the questions poised by this matter.
There seems to be a complete wall of silence surrounding this, although Fiat and Peugeot know something is wrong or why would they be trying to fix some of them.
To make matters worse they are still building them with faults that they know cannot at the moment be fixed. Is this fair to their customers.

Dave

 

[Wall-E]

Judderists must unite!!.

Hi Desco,
Reading Wildmans post Re- I know someone who has successfully sued FIat, is interesting, because I am left wondering how Fiat fixed his Motor home?. I have not heard of any SUCESSFULL modifications that as resulted in a fix yet?, perhaps they gave him all his money back?.
It has been said that Fiat have stopped supplying ANY version of a 2.3/130 engined Ducato anywhere in mainland Europe?, I wonder why?. There is supposed to be a new gearbox ready to go on the production lines, but it will not fit the existing 2.3 engine.
Fiat's official line is that only a small number of Ducato vehicles suffer this gearbox malaise and this could be borne out by the fact that VOSA, claim to have received only a handful of complaints on the issue. The TV programme Watchdog, say five people have contacted them.
So how many Ducato motor homes judder?, If the number is as great as many people say, then i feel any individual chance of success is by, all clubbing together and paying for legal expertise on the issue. Money claim or action in the small claims court may result in some success but will not set any legal presidence.
If your vehicle suffers from this problem, make some waves don't just sit back and accept it. Motor home magazine editors, dealers and the National Clubs, have a lot to answer for!!. You probably wont here anything from Fiat in the meantime because, the next NEC show is not until October 2009, Sad in it.
Wall-E.

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[Oscarmax]

I have had the new engine mount which made the matter worse followed by transmission modifications and clutch last week.

I can van now reverse onto my flat smooth drive without 'Juddering'

I tried my van a couple of days ago for the first time following the modified transmission up a medium incline, nothing too steep. Horror, the van is worse than before the modifications. 1200 rpm release cluth slowly, van stalls. Increase rpm to 1500 slip clutch, severe transmission vibration. It would appear I am not alone, other who have had the modification are reporting there's are similar if not worse.

I have contacted Fiat, they have opened a new case no, however, they have informed me 'there are no further modifications'. I do not know what the next stage is.

 

[Braunston]

Hi,

I would try to follow the person who "Wildman" mentioned earlier and try and sue for some form of compensation, I would also see if its possible to trade in your motorhome against a non Fiat based vehicle as if this saga continues then i would seriously think that it is going to have a direct impact on the resale values.

I wish you well

I have had the new engine mount which made the matter worse followed by transmission modifications and clutch last week.

I can van now reverse onto my flat smooth drive without 'Juddering'

I tried my van a couple of days ago for the first time following the modified transmission up a medium incline, nothing too steep. Horror, the van is worse than before the modifications. 1200 rpm release cluth slowly, van stalls. Increase rpm to 1500 slip clutch, severe transmission vibration. It would appear I am not alone, other who have had the modification are reporting there's are similar if not worse.

I have contacted Fiat, they have opened a new case no, however, they have informed me 'there are no further modifications'. I do not know what the next stage is.

 

[Braunston]

Hi, Jim

I think some of the answer can be found in the statistics thread recently presented by Jim our leader, there appears to be substantially more motorhomers who don't subscribe to these types of web forums than do

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ScotJimland[/LEFT];144314]I do too, but why are people still buying them .. ?
It's one thing to buy in ignorance quite another to stick your head in the sand ..

 

[Wildman]

Hi Desco,
Reading Wildmans post Re- I know someone who has successfully sued Fiat, is interesting, because I am left wondering how Fiat fixed his Motor home?. I have not heard of any SUCESSFULL modifications that as resulted in a fix yet?, perhaps they gave him all his money back?.

As the details were subject to a confidentiality clause I have no further information, not even sure if that van had reverse judder, however the windscreen leaked like a sieve despite being "fixed" twice plus a number of other problems. The independent reports were so damning that Fiat settled a few days before the hearing to keep it out of the public domain. The motorhome was collected. So one assumes payment in full was made for lose of use inconvenience, court costs legal cost etc etc etc. Chances are they scrapped it or put it in an auction with no warranty

 

[scotjimland]

Hi, Jim

I think some of the answer can be found in the statistics thread recently presented by Jim our leader, there appears to be substantially more motorhomers who don't subscribe to these types of web forums than do

Link Removed

Very true, that being the case, if I were unlucky enough to have bought one I'd be getting rid of it NOW .. before it becomes common knowledge .. plastered all over the news papers and on UTube.. then what will happen to it's resale value .. oh:

I feel really sorry for those affected..


This may be one of the reasons that some folks are reticent about publicity .. and the un friendly reception on some forums when asked to assist with a campaign on Watch Dog

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[Braunston]

Hi, Jim

I totally agree, its a bit like the old saying you may win the battle but lose the war ? i.e. you may eventually get the repair done but you will have rubbished the vehicle so much that no one will want to buy it,

Very true, that being the case, if I were unlucky enough to have bought one I'd be getting rid of it NOW .. before it becomes common knowledge .. plastered all over the news papers and on UTube.. then what will happen to it's resale value .. oh:

I feel really sorry for those affected..


This may be one of the reasons that some folks are reticent about publicity .. and the un friendly reception on some forums when asked to assist with a campaign on Watch Dog

 

[Oscarmax]

I have had the new engine mount which made the matter worse followed by transmission modifications and clutch last week.

I can van now reverse onto my flat smooth drive without 'Juddering'

I tried my van a couple of days ago for the first time following the modified transmission up a medium incline, nothing too steep. Horror, the van is worse than before the modifications. 1200 rpm release cluth slowly, van stalls. Increase rpm to 1500 slip clutch, severe transmission vibration. It would appear I am not alone, other who have had the modification are reporting there's are similar if not worse.

I have contacted Fiat, they have opened a new case no, however, they have informed me 'there are no further modifications'. I do not know what the next stage is.

Had the clutch damper fitted Tuesday still no better, what awaste of my time and diesel.

I fancied the new Fiat 500 to tow behind our motorhome, so I brought a new Toyota Aygo, yes I voted with my feet :thumb:

 

[Douglas]

A campaign for compensation will never happen. I know of one such claim who had all the engineers reports under the sun, a week before the case came to court Fiat settled out of court with a handsome payout to include all expenses, on the agreement that a confidentiality clause was signed. So rest assured compensation is being paid. But the confidentiality clause prevents it being made pubic and is a very effective damage limitation exercise.

To me this is just another form of corruption, in this case a bribe offered and a bribe excepted, and nobody to investigate Fiat.

Doug...

 

[WillH]

Things are moving again with my van. Had Fiat on the phone today from Italy saying they had a fix and would send the parts to my dealer. As far as I know the action is as stated somewhere above, new clutch mountings, and if they don't work a new reverse gear ratio.

All I can do, after some consideration, is to go for the fixes. After all, some day I will be selling and the buyer will want to know if the van has been modified.

I still maintain that the problem is blown up a bit, careful management of the clutch and engine virtually eliminates all judder. I could of course burn the clutch out in a couple of minutes if I really tried. Anyhow, lets see how we get on and I'll keep you posted like the rest.

Rgds
Bill

 

[Oscarmax]

Funny that, I have had all the modification, but they have not worked, Fiat have now stated they will carryout further investigations.

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