In your opinion re: A Frames (1 Viewer)

[Larrynwin]

 

[Charlie]

How we interpret what is or is not legislated or written down is impossible not only to fathom but even harder to agree on.

I for one would by attempting to do the above would in a way indicate I care or give a damn which I don't.

 

[vwalan]

There is a built in gas ram on the caratow one. To reverse you simply pull forward a few inches to make sure the brakes are disengaged then reverse slowly. I say slowly cos if you try to go at it to hard the brakes will be brought on. I have tried it and it works perfectly. Of course we can disengage the cable in 2 seconds but that means of course it's not then automatic.

The outfit complies with UK legislation it they would not be able to sell them.

Whether mechanical or electronic braking is chosen there are pros and cons. I went mechanical for two reasons. 1 I can maintain it and importantly understand its workings and repair it if necessary. 2 the cost.

i would say that not really lawful. but never mind . its only my opinion .
if on a steep hioll i believe the brakes would come on .
intertrade did a hydraulic version for my a frame i never bought it . the electric ones definately ok.
to me there is no grey area . its very simple auto reverse brakes are needed a sliding hitch doesnt give that .

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[vwalan]

Which are exempt from any form of braking anyway.

i like my harvey frost towboy rather use that than a frame any day.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

How we interpret what is or is not legislated or written down is impossible not only to fathom but even harder to agree on.

And that's exactly why people can currently get away with using them in the UK. Nobody cares enough to challenge the DfT interpretation at the moment.

The challenge will end up coming from an insurance company when something catastrophic eventually happens.

I just hope no Funster is involved when it does happen.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

i would say that not really lawful. but never mind . its only my opinion .
if on a steep hioll i believe the brakes would come on .
intertrade did a hydraulic version for my a frame i never bought it . the electric ones definately ok.
to me there is no grey area . its very simple auto reverse brakes are needed a sliding hitch doesnt give that .

If these are not lawful then so are caravans as the overrun/auto reverse system is exactly the same.

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[Reallyretired]

The big problem with reversing with an A frame is that the castor effect on the front wheels in reverse will put them on full lock and they will then scrub backwards. Whether the brakes are on or off is academic as even if the wheels are locked the average tow car is light enough to push backwards by the average motorhome. Reversing is something to be avoided as far as possible, if you need to turn around by forward and reverse gears it is best to disconnect the toad and connect it back when everythings facing the right way.

 

[vwalan]

unfortunately you are not correct caravans have auto reverse brake set ups in side the dri\um brakes . very early ones you moved a lever on the hitch to stop the brakes working . off the top of my head i think after 68 auto reverse brakes must be fitted.

 

[Charlie]

i would say that not really lawful. but never mind . its only my opinion .
if on a steep hioll i believe the brakes would come on .
intertrade did a hydraulic version for my a frame i never bought it . the electric ones definately ok.
to me there is no grey area . its very simple auto reverse brakes are needed a sliding hitch doesnt give that .

It does when used in conjunction with measured resistive gas ram. It works can be proved to work therefore its lawful and meets the legislation a member mentioned above. If you ever have the opportunity to actually test one you will see.

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[vwalan]

i have and still dont think its ok.
i do like the leccy ones .
you make your choice i make mine . thats life .

 

[Charlie]

And that's exactly why people can currently get away with using them in the UK. Nobody cares enough to challenge the DfT interpretation at the moment.

The challenge will end up coming from an insurance company when something catastrophic eventually happens.

I just hope no Funster is involved when it does happen.

Why do you have to talk about this hypothetical disaster ? Its never yet happened and is no more likely to happen than any other far reached hypothetical disaster.

If it does happen then I and most in my position will be covered as our insurance companies are notified and have accepted the risk .

Once again I would point out what is not illegal is by default legal.

The car becomes a trailer when on an A frame. Said trailer has to have brakes if over 750KG or in the case of a car which must have all 4 brakes working,which we have so therefore we do meet legislation.

 

[vwalan]

Why do you have to talk about this hypothetical disaster ? Its never yet happened and is no more likely to happen than any other far reached hypothetical disaster.

If it does happen then I and most in my position will be covered as our insurance companies are notified and have accepted the risk .

Once again I would point out what is not illegal is by default legal.

The car becomes a trailer when on an A frame. Said trailer has to have brakes if over 750KG which we have so therefore we do meet legislation.

wrong again the trailer/car as brakes and they must work.
the under 750kg is only for unbraked trailers .cars do have brakes fitted to all 4 wheels .
and must be able to reverse .

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[Steve and Denise]

No it doesn't because there is no UK legislation for A frames and there won't be until the subject tested by a court.

All there is at the moment is Department for Transport interpretation of current trailer legislation with particular reference to A frame towing. That isn't law because the DfT don't get to make law.

It's a grey area at best and, as I previously posted, will remain so until the DfT interpretation is tested by a court. Unfortunately that won't happen until something goes horribly wrong and someone is killed as a direct result of an A frame either being installed or used.

Are you a magistrate by any chance ! If not I feel you have missed your vocation in life

 

[busby]

Whilst I agree with you Jim I still think that even after the 2 zillion a frame threads .. people are still confused and/or have incorrect views of the current situation in the UK

Spanish Policemen are not confused,,,its illegal to tow a road vehicle in SPAIN,,,simple,,,BUSBY.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

If it does happen then I and most in my position will be covered as our insurance companies are notified and have accepted the risk .

Once again I would point out what is not illegal is by default legal.

You would be covered for that incident. The next step the insurance industry would take would be to seek judicial testing of the DfT interpretation of the trailer legislation. If successful they would be taking action against the DfT on the basis of their incorrect interpretation in order to recover their losses. At that point the ruling of the court would make A frame devices specifically illegal.

You second point is more or less correct under the Napoleonic code common in Europe but not under the English common law system.

Under the English common law system nothing is specifically legal or illegal until tested by, and ruled on, by a court or included in an Act of Parliament. Without either of those things it merely sits in a grey are of "not illegal" which is where you favourite method of towing is at present.

Not specifically illegal is not by any definition the same thing as legal by default.

There are only two ways for something to be become specifically legal - an act of Parliament or a ruling by a judge. If you could link to either of those that specifically covers A frames either way I'd be interested to read it and it would change this whole debate hugely. I don't believe such a thing exists though.

It's going to stay like that for the time being as there is no interest or will anywhere in forcing a test of the legality - the government won't bother until something goes wrong and the manufacturers and installers obviously will do whatever they can to oppose such a test because there's a better than 50/50 chance that the ruling would put them out of business.

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[Deleted member 29692]

Are you a magistrate by any chance ! If not I feel you have missed your vocation in life

You don't have to read my posts if you don't want to. The ignore button would prevent you being bored by me any more

 

[Steve and Denise]

You don't have to read my posts if you don't want to. The ignore button would prevent you being bored by me any more

I think you need to tell a lot of folk where that button is

 

[tonyidle]

i would say that not really lawful. but never mind . its only my opinion .
if on a steep hioll i believe the brakes would come on .
intertrade did a hydraulic version for my a frame i never bought it . the electric ones definately ok.
to me there is no grey area . its very simple auto reverse brakes are needed a sliding hitch doesnt give that .

I think anyone attempting to reverse a toad would run into the reverse caster effect long before the brakes caused a problem.

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[Charlie]

I think anyone attempting to reverse a toad would run into the reverse caster effect long before the brakes caused a problem.

Your right there ! I can reverse straight back for about 15 to 20 yards then it all goes horribly wrong

But like many others the kit has the ability to do the job and its me that is the weak link But the important thing is that it can be done and be demonstrated .. Lots of caravan owners cannot reverse park their rigs and rely on those mover things and they arent automatic.

You know what peoples I really genuinely dont get why so many object ?

Is it on safety grounds ? Anyone who has towed a wee car will I bet testify that the trailer. I say trailer cos thats what it is is very stable indeed ! I have towed all manner of trailers and boats on trailers and none have been as stable as the wee IQ behind the motor home..

Is it because they fear the law ? Well in this country there are I think we have to agree no laws prohibiting the use of them. Europe ? Well its cloudy but only the users stand the chance of getting nicked.

Please please please someone in the "object" camp come up with something other than impending doom ? Im getting so nervous now I fear getting the washing in in case Concord lands on our roof and knocks a tile on me bonce..

 

[vicwo]

It could be the dosh Charlie. My car was 10 grand and the a-frame 2 grand. That's a lot of beer

 

[Charlie]

It could be the dosh Charlie. My car was 10 grand and the a-frame 2 grand. That's a lot of beer

As a teetotal person I have no requirement for beer so have to waste my money in other ways !

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