Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles.

Coolcats

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Makes sense. Hydrogen usage for grid constrained areas of the world is probably a sensible solution.



Saudi Arabia and the Middle east in general is going to be screwed when we go net carbon zero. They don't have a decent grid system but have plenty of sun. Loads of solar farms with hydrogen plants co-located makes a load of sense for them...

Doesn't change my view that hydrogen makes absolutely no sense for transport in the UK.
I nearly spat my coffee out this evening when I saw Extreme E racing using Hydrogen generators to charge EV's and its not being used just in Sunny countries either......The future is bright, the future is Hydrogen ;)....or was that orange I always get my advertising messages mixed up

 

DBK

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Interestingly, there is a different view on the atmosphere's CO2 content. We are at a relative low in the CO2 cycle and we do need it for plant growth - it's pumped into greenhouses etc to increase production. Pollution - atmospheric and water - is more of a problem for human and animal health. The planet will happily support much more atmospheric CO2. I suspect that we will use the deserts of Africa and Spain to produce hydrogen from water via zero carbon technology of some sort. We may even have our own household units based on wind or solar if the Government would let us do so in exchange for a milage tax. Wouldn't that be amazing? No fuel transport, no pollution, self sufficiency in energy. They'll never let it happen.
Sorry for being a bit slow replying. :) Although it is true a few hundred million years ago there was a period when CO2 levels were much higher than now this was due to intense volcanic activity. However, there wasn't anyone around at the time other than a few liverworts and simple organisms floating in the sea to notice.

For about the last hundred thousand years the level was more or less constant with ripples when it rose and fell due to the ice ages but in the 19th century it started to climb and in the last few decades the rate has increased significantly. It is this steep rise that is the worry because unchecked the levels may rise to several times what they are now which are 50% up on pre-industrial levels.
 
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Makes sense. Hydrogen usage for grid constrained areas of the world is probably a sensible solution.



Saudi Arabia and the Middle east in general is going to be screwed when we go net carbon zero. They don't have a decent grid system but have plenty of sun. Loads of solar farms with hydrogen plants co-located makes a load of sense for them...

Doesn't change my view that hydrogen makes absolutely no sense for transport in the UK.
Your using logic again grom, bad idea. Within 20 years the amount of fuel sold for private cars will be close to zero in the UK and the EU and possibly large parts of the world, so what do the big petroleum companies do with ship, fuel stations and refining facilities? Easy transition to hydrogen, they can keep the stations, use the ships to transport hydrogen and rebuild fuel refineries to making hydrogen.
A few pounds in the right pockets and hydrogen will be touted by government as 100% green not like your dirty batteries. Plus its easy to tax at the pump so a win win all-round. :giggle:

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Coolcats

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Your using logic again grom, bad idea. Within 20 years the amount of fuel sold for private cars will be close to zero in the UK and the EU and possibly large parts of the world, so what do the big petroleum companies do with ship, fuel stations and refining facilities? Easy transition to hydrogen, they can keep the stations, use the ships to transport hydrogen and rebuild fuel refineries to making hydrogen.
A few pounds in the right pockets and hydrogen will be touted by government as 100% green not like your dirty batteries. Plus its easy to tax at the pump so a win win all-round. :giggle:
I suspect your not far off and with investment Bankers (plus pension funds etc) there will be capital about to help make changes.
 

Gromett

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so what do the big petroleum companies do with ship, fuel stations and refining facilities? Easy transition to hydrogen, they can keep the stations, use the ships to transport hydrogen and rebuild fuel refineries to making hydrogen.
The refining facilities, ships and stations are not suitable for hydrogen.
 

Coolcats

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The refining facilities, ships and stations are not suitable for hydrogen.
But there is a plan, to be clear I am not saying Hydrogen will replace Batteries I am saying Hydrogen will have a place in our future (including vehicles )

Britains Natural Gas to hydrogen plan

UK’s first hydrogen town planned for 2030

Islay distillery chases net zero with hydrogen shot

Hydrogen Industry 2021, Trends, Analysis and statistics

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The refining facilities, ships and stations are not suitable for hydrogen.
They probably own the land the refinery sits on so as I said rebuild them to make hydrogen, stations are easy just a change of pumps and storage tanks. They already have LPG bulk carriers and have 20 years to buy new or convert the others or scrap them. Its the new oil for the middle east, stacks of solar in the desert feeding a hydrogen plant by the sea, and ships to take it anywhere in the world. BP changes it name to BH2O.
 

Gromett

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They probably own the land the refinery sits on so as I said rebuild them to make hydrogen, stations are easy just a change of pumps and storage tanks. They already have LPG bulk carriers and have 20 years to buy new or convert the others or scrap them. Its the new oil for the middle east, stacks of solar in the desert feeding a hydrogen plant by the sea, and ships to take it anywhere in the world. BP changes it name to BH2O.

Ahh, you are on about totally replacing the refinery, ships and filling stations... The cost to demolish them means they have no advantage over other movers in the market.

As for middle east being a source of hydrogen. Yes, absolutely as will any other country near the equatorial regions. Australia is already making a start on this.

I have never said that other countries can't make good use of hydrogen. My ONLY claim is that in THIS country is that it makes no sense for cars, vans or lorries.
 
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Ahh, you are on about totally replacing the refinery, ships and filling stations... The cost to demolish them means they have no advantage over other movers in the market.

As for middle east being a source of hydrogen. Yes, absolutely as will any other country near the equatorial regions. Australia is already making a start on this.

I have never said that other countries can't make good use of hydrogen. My ONLY claim is that in THIS country is that it makes no sense for cars, vans or lorries.
Since when did what makes sense have anything to do with it? Its what makes money.

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Gromett

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Since when did what makes sense have anything to do with it? Its what makes money.
Money is why some people are trying to make it work here. But money is also why it will fail here.
 

Coolcats

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I have never said that other countries can't make good use of hydrogen. My ONLY claim is that in THIS country is that it makes no sense for cars, vans or lorries.
Maybe, Maybe not. Extreme E Racing will be charging their batteries from a Hydrogen generator in the Arctic. None of us know what the future holds but as outlined if the likes of Credit Suisse are involved in new energy production along with other venture capitalists it will be interesting to see how things unfold.

Europe’s truck-makers have agreed to work together to help create the right conditions for the mass-market roll-out of hydrogen trucks.

Iveco, Daimler and Volvo have joined forces with energy companies Shell and OMV to form H2Accelerate. They say hydrogen will be an essential fuel for the complete decarbonisation of the truck sector.
 
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Maybe, Maybe not. Extreme E Racing will be charging their batteries from a Hydrogen generator in the Arctic. None of us know what the future holds but as outlined if the likes of Credit Suisse are involved in new energy production along with other venture capitalists it will be interesting to see how things unfold.

Europe’s truck-makers have agreed to work together to help create the right conditions for the mass-market roll-out of hydrogen trucks.

Iveco, Daimler and Volvo have joined forces with energy companies Shell and OMV to form H2Accelerate. They say hydrogen will be an essential fuel for the complete decarbonisation of the truck sector.
The group will lobby policymakers to encourage incentives that can support increased adoption.
As I said its money that decides not what makes sense. The petroleum companies aren't going down without a fight. :happy:

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Coolcats

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The group will lobby policymakers to encourage incentives that can support increased adoption.
As I said its money that decides not what makes sense. The petroleum companies aren't going down without a fight. :happy:
Absolutely and any company big or small would do the same, it would actually make sense in that it would help to generate jobs in a new industry. When you think about the decimation EV's will have on workshops, No gas industry or gas fitters etc little in the way of a petrochemical industry it would actually be good news for a new wave of Techies in a new industry, it would be quite positive....and Hydrogen powered MoHo's too its a win win (y)
 

Gromett

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The group will lobby policymakers to encourage incentives that can support increased adoption.
As I said its money that decides not what makes sense. The petroleum companies aren't going down without a fight. :happy:
Agreed, petroleum companies are not going down without a fight. They will push for government funding in Hydrogen. The car manufacturers will hedge their bets by making half assed attempts at hydrogen vans etc.
BUT unless there is a nationwide funding scheme for hydrogen filling stations the public is just not going to buy hydrogen cars. It is a catch 22.
Secondly there is going to be a much much bigger issue for the grid if we go down the green hydrogen route. Expect electricity prices to sky rocket if hydrogen starts making Massive demands.

Finally you shouldn't forget battery prices are falling pretty quickly. It will only be a few more years before we see battery costs below that of ICE cars.
Then hydrogen will have a serious problem as not only are they going to remain more expensive to buy for many more years, they are going to remain more expensive to run.

For the UK, it just ain't going to happen.
 

Gromett

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Maybe, Maybe not. Extreme E Racing will be charging their batteries from a Hydrogen generator in the Arctic. None of us know what the future holds but as outlined if the likes of Credit Suisse are involved in new energy production along with other venture capitalists it will be interesting to see how things unfold.

Europe’s truck-makers have agreed to work together to help create the right conditions for the mass-market roll-out of hydrogen trucks.

Iveco, Daimler and Volvo have joined forces with energy companies Shell and OMV to form H2Accelerate. They say hydrogen will be an essential fuel for the complete decarbonisation of the truck sector.

I agree, hydrogen will be necessary fuel to completely decarbonise the truck sector. I have not even said that is not the case. But batteries will be cheaper and for the UK market much more suitable. We will not see hydrogen take off for trucks in this country when the cheaper and more readily chargable battery truck will suffice.

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Gromett

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Tesla Trucks are even going to places that may have been an ideal situation for Hydrogen...

 

Coolcats

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Tesla Trucks are even going to places that may have been an ideal situation for Hydrogen...

Choice is a good thing Gromett, you will note not every EV owner buys a Tesla particularly in Europe.
 

Gromett

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Choice is a good thing Gromett, you will note not every EV owner buys a Tesla particularly in Europe.
Not sure what your point is.

I was just showing an example where hydrogen would have appeared to be an ideal choice (remote/rough terrain) as the replacement for diesel but Batteries won out.

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Gromett

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Agreed, petroleum companies are not going down without a fight. They will push for government funding in Hydrogen. The car manufacturers will hedge their bets by making half assed attempts at hydrogen vans etc.
BUT unless there is a nationwide funding scheme for hydrogen filling stations the public is just not going to buy hydrogen cars. It is a catch 22.
Secondly there is going to be a much much bigger issue for the grid if we go down the green hydrogen route. Expect electricity prices to sky rocket if hydrogen starts making Massive demands.

Finally you shouldn't forget battery prices are falling pretty quickly. It will only be a few more years before we see battery costs below that of ICE cars.
Then hydrogen will have a serious problem as not only are they going to remain more expensive to buy for many more years, they are going to remain more expensive to run.

For the UK, it just ain't going to happen.
IMO the big issues for BEV HGV's are weight and range, For EV trucks to work weight limits are going to have to rise and/or battery technology is going to have to take another leap. You can't totally rule out improvements in battery tech although batteries have been around for along time now but Weight increases are a no-no politically. Show the industry a solution that means they can use some of their existing kit or at least have a gradual migration without compromises and range anxiety and I reckon it will be very popular. I think we will have both hydrogen, hybrid and BEV in the near future and the legislation/subsidies will determine which comes out top.

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Gromett

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IMO the big issues for BEV HGV's are weight and range, For EV trucks to work weight limits are going to have to rise and/or battery technology is going to have to take another leap. You can't totally rule out improvements in battery tech although batteries have been around for along time now but Weight increases are a no-no politically. Show the industry a solution that means they can use some of their existing kit or at least have a gradual migration without compromises and range anxiety and I reckon it will be very popular. I think we will have both hydrogen, hybrid and BEV in the near future and the legislation/subsidies will determine which comes out top.
Tesla have already shown that they can do their Class 8 semi with only a very minor weight penalty which will probably vanish with the next generation of batteries. I mentioned it on post #77 on this thread.

1618002544082.png

That 1 ton penalty is on a Truck that can do 621 miles on a 40 ton vehicle.


The video is here.
 

Coolcats

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Tesla have already shown that they can do their Class 8 semi with only a very minor weight penalty which will probably vanish with the next generation of batteries. I mentioned it on post #77 on this thread.

View attachment 483155
That 1 ton penalty is on a Truck that can do 621 miles on a 40 ton vehicle.


The video is here.
Not Tesla again! There are other companies producing EV’s
 

Gromett

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Not Tesla again! There are other companies producing EV’s
Tesla are the leaders in Battery Vehicles. They show what is possible then the rest follow.
No other company has a 600+ mile BEV heavy duty truck in development. So of course I will use them when they are the only ones I am able to use.

If others were doing the same I would have listed them as well as it would strengthen my point.

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Tesla have already shown that they can do their Class 8 semi with only a very minor weight penalty which will probably vanish with the next generation of batteries. I mentioned it on post #77 on this thread.

View attachment 483155
That 1 ton penalty is on a Truck that can do 621 miles on a 40 ton vehicle.


The video is here.
I'm not wishing to be picky here Gromett but the largest range I heard was a theoretical 800km for distance trucks, still impressive but I would love to see the assumptions on that as the power hungry bits are acceleration and hill starting and would soon soak up your Kwh, likewise manouvring a loaded trailer. This is where a hybrid would be beneficial, the method of using a small engine for cruising and then bringing in battery boost to accelerate or get up hills would be a bit like F1 KERS which they know quite a bit about now.

I didnt hear him mention anything about charging time but find it really hard to get away from the practical considerations of trying to whack a huge amount of KW's into a battery pack in 45 minutes x the amount of lorries needing a charge.
 

Coolcats

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Tesla are the leaders in Battery Vehicles. They show what is possible then the rest follow.
No other company has a 600+ mile BEV heavy duty truck in development. So of course I will use them when they are the only ones I am able to use.

If others were doing the same I would have listed them as well as it would strengthen my point.
Given that Tesla Hypermarketing department have done their job ‘Tesla’ seems to be the company you refer to. However if your are truly a battery champion you need to mention others who have also stated they are investing in Battery technology Volvo being one of them, I walked past the Mercedes garage yesterday and on display was their EV, just down the road is the BMW Garage with the i3 on display Volvo adverts are all about their EV. Tesla whilst the first EV company (due to no other legacy ice product) is becoming a me too EV. There are now dozens of EV’s to choose from. Trucks and vans will and are hitting the streets. So Tesla will face a market over the coming years as just another player. In the mean time Hydrogen is a serious contender for alternative fuels.
 
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Coolcats

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You mean like it does at the moment?
Maybe not, there is currently a range of fuels avalaiable from minority wood and coal burning steam engines LPG, Gas, petrol diesel Hydrogen and electric
 
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