Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles. (3 Viewers)

[Coolcats]

You have experience of a hybrid and you base your criticisms of full BEV on that?

ALL hybrids are a pile of crap in comparison to a true BEV when it comes to battery range. They are a compromise tech that make no one happy.

If you are comparing steam engines to Tesla's I give up.

How about you compare your Brothers terrible PHEV with a Tesla on range? How about the new Tesla Plaid with 500 miles of range?

Oh, and just to throw a bit of humour in here. Did you know it takes longer to get a steam engine up to temperature than it does to charge a Tesla. Oh and you have to wait for the coal man to deliver the coal

When it comes to build quality I would take a Tesla over a Land Rover any day of the week

Hybrid cars are actually quite good in cities and towns, take London for example many places are 20mph. Wouldn’t knock them so hard Grommet

 

[Gromett]

If we produce hydrogen with solar then does the 75% loss really matter?

5 years ago I went to TATAs active classroom at Swansea Uni, no grid connection of any sort. I was there to check out these

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They had a roof full of solar connected to two saltwater batteries, it was a cloudy sunny day and these things were producing so much, they couldn't pull the batteries down enough to show us what they were producing, they had microwaves and kettles on and 2 EV's plugged into it and it wasn't making a dent.

We ve got them on the house ( but you wouldn't know if I didnt say) and our 7kw system peaked a couple of times at 5kw yesterday.

I'm no expert in this but don't we produce too much electric during the day and need to store it? Hydrogen strikes me a s a pretty clean and usable way of storing it and if we stored it in gas bottles then glenn2926 could take some out to his brother.

btw space for extra tanks on a commercial isnt usually an issue its weight thats a problem that is also a big issue with BEV trucks.

I understand your point... But do you understand that in the future we won't be producing enough electricity for all the new demands that we will have. BEV cars, Electric home heating. If we add hydrogen in we will need to build 4 times as much energy generating capacity and the amount we need to build is a stretch already. Why do it when direct to battery is much more efficient?

As for storing excess electric as hydrogen. That is seriously inefficient. It has round trip efficiency of around 32%. Compressed air has an efficiency of around 50%. Flow batteries have a round trip efficiency of 75% and Lithium batteries around 85-90%.

I think using a mix of compressed air, flow batteries and lithium batteries is the best way to store excess electric till it is needed.

Finally there are other demands for hydrogen. Steel and Cement production will be the biggest, and they will suck so much hydrogen that it will be a long time before there is any excess to help bring down prices.

 

[Gromett]

Hybrid cars are actually quite good in cities and towns, take London for example many places are 20mph. Wouldn’t knock them so hard Grommet

I knock them because no bugger plugs them in. They are the worst of all worlds have double the complexity and very little benefit overall.
In London they would be worse because of the lack of offroad parking meaning people definitately don't charge them.

When you are driving on battery you are dragging the entire ICE system around as extra weight making them less efficient.

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[jongood]

What kind of side cladding is that jongood ?

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Its basically a heavily resined fibre board just been through its 3rd winter and still looks sharp, whereas another newer new build a mile away with untreated cedar is already looking crap.

 

[Chrisreay]

The problem is how to sustainably produce the hydrogen. Almost all commercial hydrogen is currently made using a process which creates CO2 as a waste product.

We don't need more CO2.

Interestingly, there is a different view on the atmosphere's CO2 content. We are at a relative low in the CO2 cycle and we do need it for plant growth - it's pumped into greenhouses etc to increase production. Pollution - atmospheric and water - is more of a problem for human and animal health. The planet will happily support much more atmospheric CO2. I suspect that we will use the deserts of Africa and Spain to produce hydrogen from water via zero carbon technology of some sort. We may even have our own household units based on wind or solar if the Government would let us do so in exchange for a milage tax. Wouldn't that be amazing? No fuel transport, no pollution, self sufficiency in energy. They'll never let it happen.

 

[Coolcats]

I knock them because no bugger plugs them in. They are the worst of all worlds have double the complexity and very little benefit overall.
In London they would be worse because of the lack of offroad parking meaning people definitately don't charge them.

When you are driving on battery you are dragging the entire ICE system around as extra weight making them less efficient.

Ok let’s just view Hybrid as an early champion of green technology, Batteries have improved over recent years to become more accepted, Hydrogen is also an option whilst it is not without its challenges but has a place in the alternative fuel mix, which includes transport exciting and fortunate times we live in.

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[ManTheVan]

For those that are interested here is our House with solar panels.


View attachment 480401

Those panels look amazing. Are they the thin flexible type from their website? I wonder if it’s possible to retrofit those to a tile roof?

 

[Lenny HB]

Some bus companies think it's a good idea.

 

[jongood]

I understand your point... But do you understand that in the future we won't be producing enough electricity for all the new demands that we will have. BEV cars, Electric home heating. If we add hydrogen in we will need to build 4 times as much energy generating capacity and the amount we need to build is a stretch already. Why do it when direct to battery is much more efficient?

As for storing excess electric as hydrogen. That is seriously inefficient. It has round trip efficiency of around 32%. Compressed air has an efficiency of around 50%. Flow batteries have a round trip efficiency of 75% and Lithium batteries around 85-90%.

I think using a mix of compressed air, flow batteries and lithium batteries is the best way to store excess electric till it is needed.

Finally there are other demands for hydrogen. Steel and Cement production will be the biggest, and they will suck so much hydrogen that it will be a long time before there is any excess to help bring down pri

They re tipping hydrogen for domestic use as apparently boilers and gas cookers can run on it.

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[jongood]

Ok let’s just view Hybrid as an early champion of green technology, Batteries have improved over recent years to become more accepted, Hydrogen is also an option whilst it is not without its challenges but has a place in the alternative fuel mix, which includes transport exciting and fortunate times we live in.

I really believe that Hybrid is the answer for heavy trucks. Yesterday I took 25 tonnes of pork to Yorkshire and the same back in a 13 litre 500hp Volvo 9mpg. The reason it needs 500hp is to pull away and get up the hills, 75% of the time it would probably cope with 250hp which can be achieved with a 7 litre Engine it just needs the boost for the hills and acceleration hence the batteries.

 

[jongood]

Those panels look amazing. Are they the thin flexible type from their website? I wonder if it’s possible to retrofit those to a tile roof?

Sorry No. they need to be stuck to a flat surface. The reason we went for that roof was so that we could have the panels. You can get a tray to recess ordinary panels into a tiled roof though so you cant see all the bracketry

 

[Gromett]

Interestingly, there is a different view on the atmosphere's CO2 content. We are at a relative low in the CO2 cycle and we do need it for plant growth

In geological time there has been periods of higher CO2. BUT never in human history or even during the rise of Mammals has there been a higher CO2 level.

Our entire civilisation has been built during the last 2-4,000 years. CO2 levels have never been this high during the last 800,000 years.

Then there is the rate of change. Previous spikes happened at the rate of 1.1Billion tons per year over 4,000 years (56Million years ago PETM period). Today we are putting out 10Bn tons and the effects are more dramatic.

Climate Change: Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide

In the past 60 years, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has increased 100 times faster than it did during the end of the last ice age.

www.climate.gov

Carbon dioxide is rising at its fastest rate in 66 million years

Planet-warming carbon dioxide is now increasing at the fastest rate of anytime in 66 million years.

mashable.com

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[Gromett]

Ok let’s just view Hybrid as an early champion of green technology, Batteries have improved over recent years to become more accepted, Hydrogen is also an option whilst it is not without its challenges but has a place in the alternative fuel mix, which includes transport exciting and fortunate times we live in.

Hybrids were a stepping stone that served a valuable intermediate stage.

 

[Gromett]

They re tipping hydrogen for domestic use as apparently boilers and gas cookers can run on it.

Hydrogen is a bad move for gas cookers and boilers for a number of reasons.

• If you burn Hydrogen at it's most efficient mix then it generates huge quantities of NOx. You have to burn it way below it's stoichiometric mix to avoid this.
• Massive amounts of condensation in effectively sealed houses. You will make a very nice sauna.
• Can you imagine putting hydrogen hobs/ovens in homes? Hydrogen has a much large range of mixes where it will combust. There will be a lot more booms.
• Hydrogen has a lower energy density than methane/Natural gas so you would need to pump a lot more through the pipes and burn it faster to get the same heat.
• Hydrogen embrittlement is a thing.
• Hydrogen will require a whole new set of pumping infrastructure. It can't be pumped using the existing natural gas pumping.
• Hydrogen from Hydrolysis requires huge quantities of electric. It makes more sense to use resistive heating which is 100% efficient.
• Safety.
• Cost of hydrolysis plants are spectacularly big.

Currently most hydrogen is produced by steam reformation of natural gas and releases huge quantities of CO2 in the process.

Why is so much time and money being put into hydrogen if it is so bad?
Gas companies want hydrogen to be a thing to save their business.
Gas distribution networks want hydrogen to be a thing to save their business.
Gas boiler companies want hydrogen to be a thing to save their business.

If you step back and look at it rationally though, there are way too many problems with hydrogen to the home for heating and cooking to make it practical in anything other than very small localised and highly controlled test settings.
Yes, it is possible. But just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

 

[Gromett]

I really believe that Hybrid is the answer for heavy trucks. Yesterday I took 25 tonnes of pork to Yorkshire and the same back in a 13 litre 500hp Volvo 9mpg. The reason it needs 500hp is to pull away and get up the hills, 75% of the time it would probably cope with 250hp which can be achieved with a 7 litre Engine it just needs the boost for the hills and acceleration hence the batteries.

I really believe that pure batteries are the answer for most trucking in this country. Tesla have proven they can make a big rig that can do 600 miles on a charge. Won't be long before others follow on (hopefully).
At which point, how many haulage companies will want to continue the high costs of maintaining a complex diesel engine with all the emissions control hardware that breaks too readily.
Drivers will love the high torque of the electric motors and the quiet operating environment.

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[jongood]

I really believe that pure batteries are the answer for most trucking in this country. Tesla have proven they can make a big rig that can do 600 miles on a charge. Won't be long before others follow on (hopefully).
At which point, how many haulage companies will want to continue the high costs of maintaining a complex diesel engine with all the emissions control hardware that breaks too readily.
Drivers will love the high torque of the electric motors and the quiet operating environment.

The big problem with that is that its only an answer for trucks that are on pre fixed distribution routes like parcel food delivery so basically rigids. Many artics are tramping and many of the rest are double shifting. I'm frequently getting into a unit that hasnt long come back in.

 

[Gromett]

The big problem with that is that its only an answer for trucks that are on pre fixed distribution routes like parcel food delivery so basically rigids. Many artics are tramping and many of the rest are double shifting. I'm frequently getting into a unit that hasnt long come back in.

For the UK the vast majority of trucks both rigids and artics do not operate 24/7. I understand and accept there are some. But here is the not so big secret.
As you know truck drivers need to take 45 minute breaks after I believe 4.5 hours. That 45 minutes is enough to charge the truck back up from the energy used in the 4.5 hours of driving.

I don't know how long on average it takes to unload and load a trailer. But this is also time when the truck is static and can be put on charge.

Some things will have to change and some practices adapted. But overall there should be no issues in the UK moving from Diesel to Pure Electric.

 

[Reallyretired]

I have a hybrid, not a plug in just a self charging with a small battery. Not a tiny vehicle it will carry 4 adults and two largish dogs without problem (hyundai ioniq) It gets up to 80mpg and never less than 60mpg, and is near to 100% electric around the town. It will also happily get me to my brothers in Yorkshire without refuelling.
I know it seems to be against the laws of physics but it's surprising how much charge it gets from regeneration when the engine would still be using fuel in a conventional vehicle.
An electric vehicle might be better once range anxiety can be eliminated.

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[Snowbird]

Thankfully am far to old and decrepit to give this new fangled nonsense a second thought. There was never anything wrong with steam.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

For the UK the vast majority of trucks both rigids and artics do not operate 24/7. I understand and accept there are some. But here is the not so big secret.
As you know truck drivers need to take 45 minute breaks after I believe 4.5 hours. That 45 minutes is enough to charge the truck back up from the energy used in the 4.5 hours of driving.

I don't know how long on average it takes to unload and load a trailer. But this is also time when the truck is static and can be put on charge.

Some things will have to change and some practices adapted. But overall there should be no issues in the UK moving from Diesel to Pure Electric.

I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of truck drivers take their breaks in lay-byes because they are at their time limit. Now I don't know about you but I haven't seen too many charging points in lay-byes and they won't want to waste their permitted driving hours going off route looking for one.

 

[jongood]

I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of truck drivers take their breaks in lay-byes because they are at their time limit. Now I don't know about you but I haven't seen too many charging points in lay-byes and they won't want to waste their permitted driving hours going off route looking for one.

We also split breaks 15 and a 30, proximity to food and drink is going to be a bigger priority than proximity to a plug that may or may or not be avaialble and sometimes you have to snatch breaks when it works for the working day not the planned affair that Gromett seems to think.

Do you have a view Paulypaul ?

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[Charlie9038]

Just to add to the clean energy debate:

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Not hydrogen but substainable Biomaterial for transport, made from household waste.

Gromett wont like it though

 

[Gromett]

I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of truck drivers take their breaks in lay-byes because they are at their time limit. Now I don't know about you but I haven't seen too many charging points in lay-byes and they won't want to waste their permitted driving hours going off route looking for one.

We also split breaks 15 and a 30, proximity to food and drink is going to be a bigger priority than proximity to a plug that may or may or not be avaialble and sometimes you have to snatch breaks when it works for the working day not the planned affair that Gromett seems to think.

Do you have a view Paulypaul ?

Yes I am aware of both those facts. As I said previously

Some things will have to change and some practices adapted.

I will also add that the government and industry will have to invest in facilities for truckers.

If all trucks were to change overnight from Diesel to Electric magicly then of course the entire system would break down.

Unlike cars though, there is no 2030 deadline for trucks.

As I also said previously

Tesla have proven they can make a big rig that can do 600 miles on a charge. Won't be long before others follow on (hopefully).

So for those who don't work fixed routes to a plan then trucks with 300, 400, 500 and 600 mile range will be necessary.

For the trucks that have little downtime, then schedules will need to be adjusted to give charge periods at the driver changeover. 45 minutes it adequate to put more than 80% charge into a lithium battery.

 

[Paulypaul]

We also split breaks 15 and a 30, proximity to food and drink is going to be a bigger priority than proximity to a plug that may or may or not be avaialble and sometimes you have to snatch breaks when it works for the working day not the planned affair that Gromett seems to think.

Do you have a view Paulypaul ?

From day to day I'm never sure where I'll be taking a 45, 15 or 30 min break? Unless you're on a set route on a daily basis there just isn't any way you can plan ahere you will take your breaks and as such, trying to factor in a refuel at a specific and probably very limited available location, would be a nightmare.

I don't think there will ever be the infrastructure to support alternative fueled trucks on any large scale...not to mention the cost of such a vehicles and what about the maintenance?

I remember when I had a Seddon Atkinson with a 290 Cummins in it and I thought I was Billy big wheels. The day I got a 450 Scania 3 series I thought I was the luckiest driver out there, but now, 450 is like a fleet truck. I know technology moves along but where does it end? 770 bhp Scanias now, yet we're limited to 44t and can still only do 56mph?

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[jongood]

From day to day I'm never sure where I'll be taking a 45, 15 or 30 min break? Unless you're on a set route on a daily basis there just isn't any way you can plan ahere you will take your breaks and as such, trying to factor in a refuel at a specific and probably very limited available location, would be a nightmare.

I don't think there will ever be the infrastructure to support alternative fueled trucks on any large scale...not to mention the cost of such a vehicles and what about the maintenance?

I remember when I had a Seddon Atkinson with a 290 Cummins in it and I thought I was Billy big wheels. The day I got a 450 Scania 3 series I thought I was the luckiest driver out there, but now, 450 is like a fleet truck. I know technology moves along but where does it end? 770 bhp Scanias now, yet we're limited to 44t and can still only do 56mph?

My brothers just got one of the first S770's ,guarding it like a baby atm but he reckons its really tight so far

 

[Paulypaul]

Lucky fella, is he an o/d or employed? Shouldn't think there's many operators who have them? One of my mates has a new S cab V8 and he says that he has to be careful because its so comfy, like a car that he has found he forgets his spacial awareness sometimes? Mind you, these V8's don't sound like they used to?

 

[Gromett]

I don't think there will ever be the infrastructure to support alternative fueled trucks on any large scale...not to mention the cost of such a vehicles and what about the maintenance?

There will be infrastructure for this. A lot of it will be built for commercial reasons. You have a truck that has to stop for 30 - 45 minutes to charge. That is a captive audience for other services on top of the fuel.
Currently you have to stand there filling your diesel tank, then you dive into the shop and pay and then you are on your way. With a charger you have someone who plugs in then has nothing to do for 30-45 minutes. A cafe/shop etc would be viable at these spots.
The government will also encourage/subsidise the building of them as well. Most of these will be on main arteries as that is the routes where most trucks doing long distances will be refuelling. Remember trucks will start each trip off with a full battery, so for the vast majority of truck trips no refuelling on route will be required.

The cost of a an EV truck will be higher up front initially. But the total cost of ownership will be lower. Electric costs less than diesel and there is a lot less maintenance. Reliability will be increased so less downtime = more profits. The maths on this is compelling.

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[Paulypaul]

There will be infrastructure for this. A lot of it will be built for commercial reasons. You have a truck that has to stop for 30 - 45 minutes to charge. That is a captive audience for other services on top of the fuel.
Currently you have to stand there filling your diesel tank, then you dive into the shop and pay and then you are on your way. With a charger you have someone who plugs in then has nothing to do for 30-45 minutes. A cafe/shop etc would be viable at these spots.
The government will also encourage/subsidise the building of them as well. Most of these will be on main arteries as that is the routes where most trucks doing long distances will be refuelling. Remember trucks will start each trip off with a full battery, so for the vast majority of truck trips no refuelling on route will be required.

The cost of a an EV truck will be higher up front initially. But the total cost of ownership will be lower. Electric costs less than diesel and there is a lot less maintenance. Reliability will be increased so less downtime = more profits. The maths on this is compelling.

The problem is, these sites would have to be absolutely huge. I wonder how many trucks would be able to be facilitated to sit for 45 minutes at any one time. You've only got to stop at a BP or Shell HGV pump on any motorway and see the amount of trucks going through.

When you're trying to work and you need to grab some diesel cause you know your route may not have too many HGV friendly garages on it, You top up at the HGV sites. There's nothing worse than having to wait 10-15 minutes for a pump to become free. Imagine if you had to wait 45 minutes then stop for a further 45 minutes while being refuelled? The drivers hours would have to be rewritten as I couldn't afford to lose an hour and a half out of my day refuelling, as apposed to 10 minutes?

Urban distribution is the only market i can see using this. Long distant work, no, it just won't work, not for an owner driver anyway.

 

[Gromett]

The problem is, these sites would have to be absolutely huge. I wonder how many trucks would be able to be facilitated to sit for 45 minutes at any one time. You've only got to stop at a BP or Shell HGV pump on any motorway and see the amount of trucks going through.

When you're trying to work and you need to grab some diesel cause you know your route may not have too many HGV friendly garages on it, You top up at the HGV sites. There's nothing worse than having to wait 10-15 minutes for a pump to become free. Imagine if you had to wait 45 minutes then stop for a further 45 minutes while being refuelled? The drivers hours would have to be rewritten as I couldn't afford to lose an hour and a half out of my day refuelling, as apposed to 10 minutes?

Urban distribution is the only market i can see using this. Long distant work, no, it just won't work, not for an owner driver anyway.

You appear to have missed my point. The vast majority of trucks will start the day off with a full battery and enough energy to do a full days work, so won't need to use the services. These people won't be parked in the services or even go into the services.
You will actually see less lorries going into the services. Most loading docks will have charge ports on them to top up while unloading/loading.

So with less using the services, there will be two types of parking in services in the future. Slots with chargers which you won't be able to stay in unless charging and non charging slots.

I don't have all the answers, but the issues you are bringing up are extremely minor in the grand scheme of things and are easy to resolve.

 

[Paulypaul]

I don't agree. I can see your point with regards to distribution work, loading on a bay, tipping on a bay or plugging in at a shop when delivering. Great, that would work.

But, what about the huge number of trucks that never go anywhere near a loading bay? I don't. I deliver boats, never in a million years would it ever work for me, but what about tippers, flats, low loaders and numerous other configurations that do site work, so to speak, and simply don't start at a warehouse or deliver to a warehouse.

And what about the JIT fridge distribution? I used to freight forward fridge loads. One of my customers, Gist, (Marks & Spencer) would demand specific loading times and critical intake times. Load and go, no time to hang about with chilled food due in the shops that night or early morning. It could be as quick as 15 minutes to load and 15 to tip, it could also be hours to load and tip if the produce wasn't ready, but my point is that even in distribution, it would have limited effectiveness without impinging on the distribution chain?

The idea of alternative fuels eventually being the standard is somewhat environmental romanticism. Sure it can work in some instances but realistically, not many....in my opinion.

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