Fresh water piping. Where do they all go?

[Dear Ducato]

I have a 1994 Ducato Hymer Camp which is fitted with a Truma C3400 boiler. It works well once the fire has started, but the problem that I had-and stil have- is that a year or so ago, I had problems in getting the hot water to flow. After mush blowing, sucking, taking the feed pipe off., it worked fine, but after a few days of not being used, I use to have to repeat the process again,. Eventually, I espied blue gunge in the filler pipe the tank side of the dump valve. I took the whole unit out and cleaned it, flushed all the system and it worked fine. The automatic dump valve broke, so I replaced it with a manual one. Since this July, it has been playing up again, so I sought advice from various people in the business, and they suggested that a one-way valve would stop the water from back flowing if not used or that there was air in the system. I fitted a valve to the 'in' side of the feed pipe before the dump valve and it seemed to work. However, it started to run slower, so that is when I decided to investigate further. There are times when I look out of my house window and see water dripping from the freshwater tank overflow. This, I was informed, could be due to the expansion of the water in hot weather, even though the tank may only be under the full mark. Being coach-built, all the piping disappears under the flooring to re-emerge in the wardrobe connecting to what I have bee told are manifolds. I also disconnected a pipe that was connected to the hot water output and this had a one-way valve fitted. When I put the piping back together and turned the hot tap on, water was coming out of a pipe by the rear o/s wheel! I then tracked back and it was the pipe that had the valve in. I turned the valve around and this stopped the leaking water. Under the wardrobe floor there was another pipe that disappeared through the floor with a some sort of plunger type piece of plastic with an 'O' ring on it. This too leaked water from another pipe that I didn't know I had! Having stopped all the leaking water, I now find that the hot water-especially-flows slower than before I fitted the non-return valve, but it doesn't need all the sucking and blowing to get it to work after a few days of standing, but does struggle a little to get flowing. I have mailed Hymer who do not have any plans of the pipe layout or what the problem could be. But they did send me a wiring diagram of the vehicle?! So, to end this tome, I am going to attach some photos for your ocular participation as to where all the pipes go and what are the manifolds for? I know that I need three hot feeds and four cold feeds (taps and toilet flush) Thanking you for any tips and this could form a party game over this Christmas Period -Name that Pipe!

 

[vin0114]

Hello and to FUN

 

[funflair]

You should be able to work out where the hot ones go to as they will be cold before you run hot water through them, more difficult with the cold ones unless you put warm water in the fresh tank.

 

[Podney]

Hello and to FUN

Is it me?

 

[Lenny HB]

I've never seen complicated plumbing like that before in a Hymer, wondering if it's original.

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[Podney]

Sorry,I’ve no idea what the solution is to your problem. But I think it’s an interesting one....I dread having such a problem to sort out as it’s certainly not clear how to access pipes.

Could you try adding a dye (harmless preferably!) to different parts of the system? Just a wild guess!

 

[Eggs]

Is it me?

No.

 

[L' Hobo]

That looks like VERY complicated pipe work, could it just be that your pump is getting old and no longer capable of forcing water around the system or was built for an earlier and simpler system?
And, something in the back of my mind seems to think that back in the day, red piping was for hot and blue for cold?

 

[two]

Welcome.
You are right to be puzzled - I've never seen anything quite like this before, although I've not studied a lot of motorhome pipework.
You should not need to add extra NRVs.
Water dripping out is something to investigate. There seem to be a lot of dump valves in your circuit, maybe one of those is not sealing and letting air in as well as water out?
I don't know what causes gunge but that might happen if air gets into the pipework. I'd be keen to sort that out, especially if you drink the water.

 

[TheBig1]

A basic NRV is a plastic ball held closed by a spring. The water pressure pushes against the spring to flow. This reduces flow minimally but a strong pump should overcome it. Sounds like your pump is failing after years of use and algae in the system. When did you last treat it with a sterilising solution?

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[Dear Ducato]

Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions! Yes, even the local caravan dealer was surprised at the plumbing layout. Red are hot and clear/white are cold. Will check the pump output pressure, but that seems to be ok, as it certainly comes out when the input pipe to the boiler is disconnected! I may have to bite the bullet and disconnect the manifold pipes, in case there is crud stopping the flow, but it looks as if they have been installed with a sealer around the spigots. I'll also remove the NRV that I put in to see if that increases the flow. The blue stuff is-so I was told by a plumber-copper residue that forms inside the tank, so another flush out looks likely, rather than the hassle of removing the tank. It looks as though there are four drain outlets viz: one dump valve, one that has been replace by an NRV, one in the wardrobe on the cold side and one for the freshwater tank. Not too worried about that, more concerned that they don't leak inside! Will have another look when it's more comfortably to lie down on the floor of the MH and crawl about under the exterior!

 

[Dear Ducato]

Hi The Big 1! Algae? Next it will be Biggles! By the way, my posts come up as Pilote John. I did email someone to see how I could change it, as I thought that name belonged to our leader!

 

[Wagoneer]

Welcome to the forum.

One of the feeds from the cold water manifold terminates at a valve which discharges water through the floor to drain the cold water taps when draining down for winter storage. Same for the hot water system. Under normal operation these valves need to be in the fully closed position, otherwise there will be a reduction of pressure in the system. Suggest you check under the van for any signs of water discharging from these valves when the pump is operating. Maybe one of the valves is fubar and needs replacing.

There should be a non-return valve located adjacent the fresh water tank or incorporated within the submersible pump. This prevents water draining back into the tank and helps stop air getting into the pipework.

The previous owner may have installed an external shower which could account for the additional pipework.

 

[two]

I have experience blue deposits in the water, after using wine maker's sterilising tablets to cleanse the system. Left it in to do its stuff overnight and hadn't realised that the solution would attack the inside of my (then) copper boiler. I think I had created Copper Sulphate.
I'd give it all a good flushing through (open all dump points) then check that they close properly. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Figaro]

The blue stuff is-so I was told by a plumber-copper residue that forms inside the tank,

Blue verdegre (? spelling) should not be present in you mostly plastic tank / pipework, I think the verdegre will only form with exposure to atmosphere / copper / water, but I stand to be corrected on that
My plumbing in 2003 B544 looks nothing like that layout, it`s very straight forward and logical.
I think someone has been adding to that system for some reason

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[Dear Ducato]

Blue verdegre (? spelling) should not be present in you mostly plastic tank / pipework, I think the verdegre will only form with exposure to atmosphere / copper / water, but I stand to be corrected on that
My plumbing in 2003 B544 looks nothing like that layout, it`s very straight forward and logical.
I think someone has been adding to that system for some reason

I'm coming to a similar conclusion! The blue gunge is in the hot water tank, which is metal/copper. The freshwater tank is plastic and is spotless. I would have thought that one would have a cold feed to the toilet flush, one to cold tap in basin and shower, and one to the sink. Hot supply to sink, basin and shower. Maybe the manifolds are some form of balancing the pressure and flow. Might try to by-pass the manifolds and see what happens!

 

[funflair]

Nothing wrong with manifolds in theory, you have to split the feeds somehow to go off to the separate consumers,

You can just see ours at the back of the locker, red stripe for hot and blue stripe for cold.

 

[two]

If the blue gunge is coming from the boiler, I'd give it a jolly good flushing-out.
I'm not sure, but would be concerned that whatever is causing the reaction is still there and slowly eating through the boiler skin.

 

[Dear Ducato]

Welcome to the forum.

One of the feeds from the cold water manifold terminates at a valve which discharges water through the floor to drain the cold water taps when draining down for winter storage. Same for the hot water system. Under normal operation these valves need to be in the fully closed position, otherwise there will be a reduction of pressure in the system. Suggest you check under the van for any signs of water discharging from these valves when the pump is operating. Maybe one of the valves is fubar and needs replacing.

There should be a non-return valve located adjacent the fresh water tank or incorporated within the submersible pump. This prevents water draining back into the tank and helps stop air getting into the pipework.

The previous owner may have installed an external shower which could account for the additional pipework.

Hi Wagoneer. Yes, discovered that there is a valve on both manifolds that discharge to the outside. However, it looks as though they have been 'got at', as the hot has a screw through a wing-nut presumably to keep it closed, which may explain why there is a NRV on a 'T' joint on the boiler outlet. To get that to work, it has to come out and put back in so that the water flows out onto the ground. I may dispense with the joint and put a straight coupling in and replace the 'seized' valve on the manifold with a manual caravan one, as I have with the failed auto dump valve on the inlet to the boiler. I think that I will do the same for the cold manifold as well. I found a total of 4 drains on the o/s of the van! I also have a larger plastic pipe that I have yet to follow, as it goes along the back of the waste tank and disappears up into the van, one under the toilet area and one looking like an overflow for the freshwater tank! On the manifold side, I have found the cold feed, to the sink and boiler fill and what I assume to be the hot feeds to the basin and shower. On the cold manifold I have two outlets, both of which have 'Y' connector with a total of 4 pipes going away under the flooring. These must be for the water from the freshwater tank and the feeds to the sink, shower and toilet. I will investigate these later with the aid of a large pan to catch the water that leaks out! Once I have found the pipe from the freshwater tank, I shall join it to each individual cold feed so that I can determine which is which. Happy Days!

 

[Dear Ducato]

Hi Wagoneer. Yes, discovered that there is a valve on both manifolds that discharge to the outside. However, it looks as though they have been 'got at', as the hot has a screw through a wing-nut presumably to keep it closed, which may explain why there is a NRV on a 'T' joint on the boiler outlet. To get that to work, it has to come out and put back in so that the water flows out onto the ground. I may dispense with the joint and put a straight coupling in and replace the 'seized' valve on the manifold with a manual caravan one, as I have with the failed auto dump valve on the inlet to the boiler. I think that I will do the same for the cold manifold as well. I found a total of 4 drains on the o/s of the van! I also have a larger plastic pipe that I have yet to follow, as it goes along the back of the waste tank and disappears up into the van, one under the toilet area and one looking like an overflow for the freshwater tank! On the manifold side, I have found the cold feed, to the sink and boiler fill and what I assume to be the hot feeds to the basin and shower. On the cold manifold I have two outlets, both of which have 'Y' connector with a total of 4 pipes going away under the flooring. These must be for the water from the freshwater tank and the feeds to the sink, shower and toilet. I will investigate these later with the aid of a large pan to catch the water that leaks out! Once I have found the pipe from the freshwater tank, I shall join it to each individual cold feed so that I can determine which is which. Happy Days!

Oh, as regards the blue gunge, the bottom half of the tank is copper and I will flush it all out thoroughly once I have sorted all the pipework out.,

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[Dear Ducato]

Hi Wagoneer. Just an update. Identified the hot, cold, feed and dump valve on the hot and cold side of things. I removed the NRV that I had fitted to the feed side of the tank and placed it into the cold out on the freshwater tank, where the NRV wasn't 100%, I found. This seems to have cured the problem, but I still can't figure out the two blue connectors on the freshwater tank which are linked to the cold out by a 'T' joint, before the pipe go to the outside. Overflow for the main tank or expansion in hot weather, possibly. All drained down with taps and dump valves open, so will be interesting when I manage to get out travelling again, hopefully, next year! Happy Christmas to all!

 

[L' Hobo]

Hi Wagoneer. Just an update. Identified the hot, cold, feed and dump valve on the hot and cold side of things. I removed the NRV that I had fitted to the feed side of the tank and placed it into the cold out on the freshwater tank, where the NRV wasn't 100%, I found. This seems to have cured the problem, but I still can't figure out the two blue connectors on the freshwater tank which are linked to the cold out by a 'T' joint, before the pipe go to the outside. Overflow for the main tank or expansion in hot weather, possibly. All drained down with taps and dump valves open, so will be interesting when I manage to get out travelling again, hopefully, next year! Happy Christmas to all!

If you can get a EHU and water where it is situated, why not spend a few days over the Christmas period in it and get it sorted BEFORE you go out travelling. Onboard water tanks will rarely freeze in Kent if it warm enough for you are staying in it. (Just remember to drain down before leaving it) and take some water in a container for tea etc.......Happy Christmas to you too!

 

[Dear Ducato]

Yes, I carry bottle water for tea etc and use the freshwater tank water for washing up and bathing. I doubt if I'll be using it for travelling until May 2021, as I am awaiting an operation and as the mot on the MH is in January (had a 6 month extension) it'll depend on whether it passes and how much to repair etc, so I might sorn it, especially if my op date is in January,( already been waiting 6 months, but there are others in more serious positions. At least I wake up every morning. So far!!) as the recovery period for the op is up 8 weeks, so I might as well save the money!

 

[Vipar]

Nothing wrong with manifolds in theory, you have to split the feeds somehow to go off to the separate consumers,

View attachment 448453
You can just see ours at the back of the locker, red stripe for hot and blue stripe for cold.

Sensible system even I understand red for hot blue for cold

 

[Wagoneer]

Hi Wagoneer. Just an update. Identified the hot, cold, feed and dump valve on the hot and cold side of things. I removed the NRV that I had fitted to the feed side of the tank and placed it into the cold out on the freshwater tank, where the NRV wasn't 100%, I found. This seems to have cured the problem, but I still can't figure out the two blue connectors on the freshwater tank which are linked to the cold out by a 'T' joint, before the pipe go to the outside. Overflow for the main tank or expansion in hot weather, possibly. All drained down with taps and dump valves open, so will be interesting when I manage to get out travelling again, hopefully, next year! Happy Christmas to all!

The double interlinked pipework above the freshwater tank is a bit of a mystery to me. It doesn't look like the standard configuration as the pipework straggles the large circular inspection cover, preventing easy access.

Do you have a water purifying filter beneath the kitchen worktop which connects to the cold tap or even a separate cold water (drinking water) tap ? That could possibly explain the spaghetti of pipes above the fresh water tank.

On my Hymer, I seem to remember the freshwater tank overflow was located in the vicinty of the large bore external fill point.

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[Dear Ducato]

The double interlinked pipework above the freshwater tank is a bit of a mystery to me. It doesn't look like the standard configuration as the pipework straggles the large circular inspection cover, preventing easy access.

Do you have a water purifying filter beneath the kitchen worktop which connects to the cold tap or even a separate cold water (drinking water) tap ? That could possibly explain the spaghetti of pipes above the fresh water tank.

On my Hymer, I seem to remember the freshwater tank overflow was located in the vicinty of the large bore external fill point.

Pilote John. Certainly can't find any purifying units or taps, but it is a mixer tap and the cold feed is Jubilee clipped to the cold inlet, with the original threaded screw-connector floating around lower down on the tube! The overflow pipe comes out alongside the filler pipe.

 

[Dear Ducato]

Nothing wrong with manifolds in theory, you have to split the feeds somehow to go off to the separate consumers,

View attachment 448453

You can just see ours at the back of the locker, red stripe for hot and blue stripe for cold.

Very pretty! I take it that that is the pump that it all is connected to. My pump is inside the freshwater tank. No-one can explain the pipe configuration on the top of the water tank, as to why the overflow pipe is connected to the other two pipes. My thought is that they are something to do with the expansion of the water in hot weather.

 

[funflair]

Very pretty! I take it that that is the pump that it all is connected to. My pump is inside the freshwater tank. No-one can explain the pipe configuration on the top of the water tank, as to why the overflow pipe is connected to the other two pipes. My thought is that they are something to do with the expansion of the water in hot weather.

Yes that is the pump for our system which is pressurised all the time and then switches the pump when the pressure drops, the output from the pump splits to the cold manifold and the boiler, the boiler then feeds the hot manifold.

 

[berni109]

Pilote John get yourself a brake pipe clamp so you can clamp off the individual pipes to see what stops working rather than having to disconnect them all individually.

 

[L' Hobo]

Pilote John get yourself a brake pipe clamp so you can clamp off the individual pipes to see what stops working rather than having to disconnect them all individually.

Using this method, it's probably best left until it gets warmer OR there is long length to clamp off. Old plastic pipe can get rigid and crack in frosty weather unless heated first.

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