Dart Charge - be aware (1 Viewer)

[GWAYGWAY]

As far as I am aware no business MAY hold you to terms and conditions that are detrimental to the the customers rights .
This almost certainly is and as such YOU may take action against them under the unfair terms and conditions regulations.
To be fined, for that is what the penalty charge is, levied by a statutory body, Applied by a private company almost certainly is illegal.
They have your money and have applied a legally backed charge because YOU have not known about THEIR rules is definitely an unfair and to have it done without informing you of the change of condition of your account is likewise illegal.
These bodies along with the congestion charge and LEZ will bring action with baliffs against you with what purports to be a court order.
These orders a signed in a court building by a TAME magistrate, paid by them to sign the documents, many at a time. This does not make it a court order and as such may be refused at the serving as an illegal document. It is not done through the court but by a paid individual on the premises. This practice should stop but the Authorities do not seem to mind it happening.
Write back and appeal the notice and also make official complaints against them for illegal demands and conditions.

 

[Reallyretired]

Thanks for this information. I do have an account with the four vehicles on it, and usually travel through the crossing once a year or more to visit relatives in Yorkshire, but was unaware of this.

 

[Augusta08]

I wonder if you told them you cannot understand their statement, because you crossed in September and their system must have failed to recognise my registration number?

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[GJH]

The Ts&Cs are on their web site to download but what doesn't appear to be there (but should be) is a form to tell them on-line that you wish to terminate the account. I've asked them to point me to it.

What I wrote to Sanef:

In the welcome pack it says that if I want to close my account a closure form is available on the website. I can't find the form. Could you please direct me to it.

Reply from Sanef:

Thank you for contacting Dart Charge.
I have requested to have your account closed for you and any balance refunded back to the payment card on your account.
If you have any further questions, please contact us by email or phone our service team on 0300 3000 120 between 5:00AM and Midnight, seven days a week.

My response to Sanef:

I did not ask for my account to be closed!!! I asked to be directed to where the closure form was so that I could close my account if and when I so wished.
I did so because several of my friends also want the same answer.
Could you please do as I asked.

Typical performance when private sector Yee-Has are employed to do a job and cut corners to make more profit

 

[gus-lopez]

Not being funny, but if anyone is only going to use the crossing a couple of times a year wouldn't it be easier to pay online each time you use it, it's quite quick and simple and they don't get your money till you need to pay.

True & Ok if you have access to internet straight away.I don't & being foreign registered found it easier to open an account.

Thanks for this information. I do have an account with the four vehicles on it, and usually travel through the crossing once a year or more to visit relatives in Yorkshire, but was unaware of this.

So were any normal people.There is no logic to it except to catch people out.

 

[GJH]

So were any normal people.There is no logic to it except to catch people out.

As I said - Typical performance when private sector Yee-Has are employed to do a job and cut corners to make more profit

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[GJH]

Reply from Sanef:

The account closure request has been cancelled. If you wish to close your account in the future, please just contact us and we will do this for you.
If you have any further questions, please contact us by email or phone our service team on 0300 3000 120 between 5:00AM and Midnight, seven days a week.

My response:

Thank you for your message.
Are you telling me that the web form promised in the Welcome Pack doesn't actually exist and customers are now expected to waste time/money in either ringing Dart Charge or sending in a letter?
If that is not the case and an e-mail option exists for customers instead then that should be stated on the Closure page. If it is the case that only phone/letter options exist then that should also be explained on the Closure page (together with an explanation as to why the Welcome Pack is misleading).
Could you please let me know by return when the web page will be updated one way or the other.

 

[Badknee]

Reply from Sanef:
My response:

The problem I can see with your reply Graham is it contains words of more than one syllable and may take time to be understood.

 

[GeriatricWanderer]

The problem I can see with your reply Graham is it contains words of more than one syllable and may take time to be understood.

Words like "head" and "brick wall" come to mind.

I'm still waiting for a reply to my challenging response. It seems they're unable to tell me how to re-activate an account that they have made inactive - apparently making another crossing is not good enough even if there are funds to cover the crossing and it's not possible to open another account as the vehicle is already registered in the inactive account.

Fond memories of chucking coins into a funnel

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[Badknee]

Words like "head" and "brick wall" come to mind.

I'm still waiting for a reply to my challenging response. It seems they're unable to tell me how to re-activate an account that they have made inactive - apparently making another crossing is not good enough even if there are funds to cover the crossing and it's not possible to open another account as the vehicle is already registered in the inactive account.

Fond memories of chucking coins into a funnel

It just seems that they are not fit for purpose, as we are now committed to crossing with returns in June and Sept I'm thinking of paying for the crossings rather that opening an account, either that or you and GJH better get it sorted and quick.

 

[TheCaller]

The Ts&Cs are on their web site to download but what doesn't appear to be there (but should be) is a form to tell them on-line that you wish to terminate the account. I've asked them to point me to it.

There isn't a form that you can fill in on-line AFAIK, but there is a pdf document that you can download, fill in on your computer, then print & send by post. There doesn't appear to be any fully on-line method of closing an account, although if you sign in & click on 'Close your account', it does suggest you phone them. Whether they then tell you to fill in the form I don't know!

The form is available from here.

There is an on-line contact form here. You can't attach the completed form, but I suppose you could put all the requested information in the message box instead.

I opened an account last April, thinking that I would use the crossing once or twice a year. On average, that will probably continue to be true, but I last crossed in May 15 & at the moment, I don't look like going that way again until July 16. The cost of the stamp & envelope to close the account will be more than the discount I've saved - although I opened an account to avoid the uncertainty around getting on-line to pay in time when heading across the channel, rather than for the value of the discount.

 

[TheCaller]

Anyone else see the obvious here ?
It states " status of account changed to non-use on 1st december 2015 ".............................................................................

" If you do not recommence using your account within 30 days of the 'non-use' letter.............................."
well you have recommenced using the account within 30 days of the date of cessation. Your friend went over last weekend.

That bit I agree with. The T&C implies that any crossing in month 13 should automatically re-activate the account. As the T&C also say 'MAY close your Account' (not WILL), they should further write to you to say that they have closed it (& presumably enclose your refund of remaining credit).

The fact that you have not received the non-use letter isn't your problem.

According to the T&C, it is your problem (leaving aside the month 13 issue above). As is usual, proof of posting a letter is accepted as proper service, as spelt out in the T&C. The T&C also includes email, which would not generally be implied if it wasn't specifically mentioned.

Where we are required to notify you under this Agreement we will
send that notice by post (or by hand delivery) or by e-mail to the address you
last gave to us in accordance with clause 8.3(i).
11.2 Such notice will be deemed duly served:
a. if sent by first class post to an address within the UK or sent by email
(whether within or outside of the UK) - on the second working day after
the day on which it was sent;
b. if sent by first class post to an address outside the UK - on the fifth
working day after the day on which it was sent.

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[Larby]

Just noticed there is a PAY & GO account available. No discount though.
https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/BeforeYouStartPayAsYouGo

 

[GJH]

There isn't a form that you can fill in on-line AFAIK, but there is a pdf document that you can download, fill in on your computer, then print & send by post. There doesn't appear to be any fully on-line method of closing an account, although if you sign in & click on 'Close your account', it does suggest you phone them. Whether they then tell you to fill in the form I don't know!

The form is available from here.

There is an on-line contact form here. You can't attach the completed form, but I suppose you could put all the requested information in the message box instead.

I opened an account last April, thinking that I would use the crossing once or twice a year. On average, that will probably continue to be true, but I last crossed in May 15 & at the moment, I don't look like going that way again until July 16. The cost of the stamp & envelope to close the account will be more than the discount I've saved - although I opened an account to avoid the uncertainty around getting on-line to pay in time when heading across the channel, rather than for the value of the discount.

The point is that, according to the contract when we all opened our accounts, there should be an on-line method which does not involve customers wasting time and money cancelling by phone or post. I used the contact form to send in my enquiry. We shall see what they have to say about the lack of a form which they promised would be there.

 

[TheCaller]

The point is that, according to the contract when we all opened our accounts, there should be an on-line method which does not involve customers wasting time and money cancelling by phone or post. I used the contact form to send in my enquiry. We shall see what they have to say about the lack of a form which they promised would be there.

Ok, we are splitting hairs here, but....

(Unless you are really really interested, most people are advised to skip the rest of this post.)

I agree with you that there should be an on-line form, but just because that would be sensible, not because they promised one.

There are two sections that deal with cancellation in the T&Cs. Section 3 refers to cancellation within 14 days of opening the account.
It does say that you can use the cancellation form that you can find on the website & sure enough, there is a cancellation form on the web site, but it's a form that you have to download, complete & return by post. But the T&Cs don't specify that you can complete the form on-line; they just say that a form is available.

Where the T&Cs are in error is that they say that the form is also in your Welcome Pack. It isn't - all the Welcome Pack has is the information that the form is available to download & a link to the website, as before.

After 14 days, it is Section 9 that applies. That says that you may give 30 days notice to terminate the Agreement in writing, by phone or online via the website. The contact form on the website has a variety of pre-defined subject headings. As Account Closure is not one of them, either the Personal Accounts or the General heading must be appropriate. Obviously it would be better if Account Closure was a pre-defined heading, but in a way, that's their problem. The T&Cs say you can close the account via the website, so I don't see how they can do other than accept your on-line instruction via their contact form. It would be better for both parties if there was an on-line form to complete, but they didn't promise that.

Note also that by inference, the need to provide the date of Account opening only applies if you are cancelling within 14 days.

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[TheCaller]

Just noticed there is a PAY & GO account available. No discount though.
https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/BeforeYouStartPayAsYouGo

Is that new, I wonder? I don't remember that being an option when I opened my account last April.

Maybe they realised that a lot of very occasional users were doing what I did & opening accounts to avoid the 24hr pressure to pay, rather than to get a discount that is only really worthwhile if you are a regular user. If I look like coming up to 12 months without another crossing, I think I'll close my account & go for that one instead. Having said that, I did prefer the better control of setting the proper account to manual top-up - I'm not that keen on letting them debit my card automatically every time they think I've been across. At least with an account, the most they can get is what's left of the tenner you put on each time.

 

[gus-lopez]

[QUOTE="TheCaller, post: 1665108, member: 28231". As is usual, proof of posting a letter is accepted as proper service, as spelt out in the T&C. The T&C also includes email, which would not generally be implied if it wasn't specifically mentioned.[/QUOTE]
So how do they prove that they have actually posted a letter ? Because unless it is registered/recorded, or first class & they can show me a photo of the addressed ,stamped letter , then I certainly never take the word of anyone just stating that they have done it.

 

[TheCaller]

So how do they prove that they have actually posted a letter ?

You will have to ask them that. Certificate of posting, maybe? That's what I would get if I wanted to later show that I had actually posted something. I don't know if there is any case law as to what is acceptable proof of sending an email.

It's not an issue as to what you would accept as proof - to comply with the contract, it's what the law of the land states is or is not acceptable.

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[GJH]

I agree with you that there should be an on-line form, but just because that would be sensible, not because they promised one.

From the Ts&Cs - "9.2 You may terminate this Agreement on 30 days’ notice to us either in writing, by telephone or online via the Website."
From the Welcome Pack - "• Want to close your account. A closure form is available on the website"

The implication is that the form can be submitted on-line.

 

[Swiftroy1]

After reading this thread I realised that I hadn't used my account since I'd opened it on 5/12/14. I rang them and asked if my account had been shut. They checked and reopened it. Very straightforward . Thank you for the heads-up.

 

[TheCaller]

From the Ts&Cs - "9.2 You may terminate this Agreement on 30 days’ notice to us either in writing, by telephone or online via the Website."
From the Welcome Pack - "• Want to close your account. A closure form is available on the website"

The implication is that the form can be submitted on-line.

Now come on, Graham, be reasonable.

They've removed the barriers to ease your passage over the river.
They have provided a convenient method of relieving you of your cash for the privilege.
You surely didn't expect them to make it that easy to stop them hanging onto your cash, did you?


This is a quasi-governmental organisation with a captive user base, financial targets to meet & almost no downside to being hated by absolutely everybody, apart from having to suffer the occasional difficult interview on the Today programme.

To be serious for a moment and leaving aside the poor wording of the T&Cs & their inconsistency with the Welcome Pack, I imagine that they may well want to discourage people like me, who only do occasional journeys over the river, from opening an account, travelling over & back, then closing the account, then opening another account a few months later for another return trip, then closing it again, then .....

The reply to your enquiry will be interesting. Will they say, yes, you have to download the Account Closure form, complete it & post it to us, or will they say, no, just tell us via the on-line contact form that you want to close the account - the downloadable form is only there for people who prefer to work on paper, just like the equivelent form that you can download & post in for opening an account.

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[GJH]

This is a quasi-governmental organisation with a captive user base, financial targets to meet & almost no downside to being hated by absolutely everybody, apart from having to suffer the occasional difficult interview on the Today programme.

No, the problem stems from this being a set of private sector Yee-Has who contract to do a job and then cut corners when they find it is cheaper for them than performing the contract fully.

 

[Larby]

No, the problem stems from this being a set of private sector Yee-Has who contract to do a job and then cut corners when they find it is cheaper for them than performing the contract fully.

Or G4S failing to provide for the Olympics but didn't want to refund any of the fee?

You'll be telling me next that Sanef is French and that EDF is a French electric company

 

[GJH]

Latest from Sanef:

Thank you for contacting Dart Charge.
If a customer wishes to close their account, they can do so by contacting us either by phone, letter or by sending an email. This is also stated in section 9.2 of the Dart Charge Terms And Conditions.

My response:

Section 9.2 of the Dart Charge Terms And Conditions does not state that customers wishing to close the account "can do so by contacting us either by phone, letter or by sending an email"
What section 9.2 of the Dart Charge Terms And Condition states is "You may terminate this Agreement on 30 days’ notice to us either in writing, by telephone or online via the Website.". In addition, the Welcome Pack states "Want to close your account. A closure form is available on the website".
The implication is that the form can be submitted on-line.
Furthermore, the "Change account type or close your account" web page only gives the options of telephoning or writing. It makes no mention of e-mail. Also, the Contact Dart Charge page includes no mention of closing accounts in the "What's it to do with?" options so how are customers supposed to know that the e-mail route exists?
Sanef should make it clear on the web site that there is also the e-mail option in place. By not doing so, Sanef is in breach of its own terms and conditions by misleading customers.
Could you please let me know by return when the web page will be updated to provide that clarity. If you do not or can not do so by return I shall escalate this matter to Charles Hewson tomorrow.

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[MJG1959]

Not being funny, but if anyone is only going to use the crossing a couple of times a year wouldn't it be easier to pay online each time you use it, it's quite quick and simple and they don't get your money till you need to pay.

Well you would hope so wouldn't you? However here is my tale of woe posted elsewhere. I have won through in the end after taking it to a Traffic Appeals Tribunal and they upheld my appeal after Dart Charge didn't contest it. I had to go through all the steps with Dart Charge though. It is a shockingly bad system to deal with if you have the slightest problem with your payment. I also got a second PCN for the return journey which I also had to go through the hoops of contesting.

In anticipation of passing over and under the Thames via. the Datfrord crossing I duly went on line the week before our holiday to pay my £5 for the outward and return trips to France.

As rather expected with a government IT system I didn't get a confirmation email but rather was served up an error page. No worries I though I will check in a couple of days to see if payment has been taken, and sure enough when I did £5 had been duly taken from my account. I did however have a nagging doubt that I would be accused of not paying and sure enough this morning I received my 'warning letter' advising me of the penalty charge for the first crossing on 11h June 2015 but ever so kindly giving me the opportunity of paying the £2.50. I suppose I could have just paid the £2.50 again but being of tight wad Yorkshire stock declined and I have made 'representation' to them enclosing a down load of the relevant transaction from my bank.

It will be interesting to see what happens, and I will of course need to go through it all again for the return crossing of the 29th June which they no doubt will claim they haven't received payment for.

What a joke!, and what a waste of public money chasing something they have been paid.

 

[GJH]

As rather expected with a government IT system I didn't get a confirmation email but rather was served up an error page.

The thing is, though, that it is not a "government IT system". It's a system run by a private sector contractor who (as we have seen so often over the last 20 years or so) has implemented a system which is not fit for purpose but the government is stuck with because it can't just unplug it and replace it in one fell swoop.

 

[Puddleduck]

Well that has decided us...... if and when we venture to the continent of Europe we will be going via Newcastle or Hull.

Except sister-in-law gets VERY seasick so it'll be tunnel when we go to Italy with them and we will have to check out how to pay - or time it for the free period.

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[MJG1959]

The thing is, though, that it is not a "government IT system". It's a system run by a private sector contractor who (as we have seen so often over the last 20 years or so) has implemented a system which is not fit for purpose but the government is stuck with because it can't just unplug it and replace it in one fell swoop.

Cheers yes that was picked up in the other forum that it was posted in. I referenced it as a govt. IT system because at the end of the day as far as I am concerned they bear the responsibility for it, they procured it after all. Additionally once you start getting correspondence from Dart Charge after you have committed an alleged 'Contravention' the correspondence starts referring to the 'Secretary of State for Transport', obviously to give the whole (flawed) process more gravitas so I think it's fair to refer to it as a govt. system TBH.

 

[nobby &noo]

i live in Dartford and have no end of problems with our account.The most recent being when i sold my camper last week which was the named vehicle on the account, so i wanted to change the second vehicle on the account to the main one no problem the man said just take a photo of the log book and email it to us,i did this and got an email in return saying it couldn't be registered as it was not in my name and i would have to change the account holders name to register it even thou it was a named vehicle on the account and is registered to my address.

 

[GJH]

After a couple more unhelpful replies from "Customer Service" I escalated this to Sanef's CEO. Reply today:

Our CEO Charles Hewson has passed your email onto myself to investigate.

Firstly, I would like to offer my apologies for the inconvenience you have recently experienced. We are working to resolve the issues raised in your email.

The account closure form included in our Terms and Conditions is a fillable PDF form. The fields requiring data can have information typed in. The document can then be returned to Dart Charge via email or printed and posted. However, we have identified that the account number and signature field is currently not fillable on this form. We are working to update this immediately.

We are currently updating the Dart Charge website to include the account closure form on the “change account type or close your account” page and an email address to return this form to.

We will be providing feedback and coaching to the CSRs who previously responded to you to ensure they are capable to respond to all enquiries appropriately.

It is not our intention to create difficulties for any of our customers. We want all our users to have a stress-free experience with us, and I am sorry that we were not successful in your case.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance?
Kind Regards,

Orla McElroy
Operations Manager
Dart Charge Customer Service

I've pointed out to her the impossibility of filling in a signature field on-line and told her that "In order to meet its contracted obligation of on-line cancellation, Dart Charge needs to create a specific facility which enables it, not some half-baked, cobbled together, fudge."

We shall see.

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