Beating the 90/180 day Schengen rule

[Dwarfland]

I see a lot of debate on how to stay in the EU Schengen zone for more than the 90/180. Lots of discussion on Morocco and Croatia, not much on getting a 6 mth visa. I got a French one which I believe in allows me to stay in Schengen for that period, then the usual 90 days kicks in. There’s some discussion on whether it only covers France but with open borders across EU, if I enter and exit through France I don’t see that being a problem. It is a lot of red tape to wade through and you need to be able to demonstrate you have funds to support you through your stay, but it’s definitely do-able.I’m in Spain now and intending to stay in EU longer then 90 days on my French visa. More info on getting a French visa here-

Long Term EU Visa for UK Motorhomers - DriverAbroad.com. - DriverAbroad.com.

Staying in EU For more than 90 days, Long Term Visa for UK passport, Long Term EU visa for motorhome, how to stay in EU for more than 90 days,

driverabroad.com

 

[royandsharont]

My understanding is that your French visa is exactly that, France only, just like the Spanish one is Spain only. Otherwise it would be a Schengen visa.

Yes it would be difficult with a French one to be caught unless you entered a non Schengen country, like Croatia where there are still border checks, but it does not make it legal to overstay the 90 in Schengen area and if caught the penalties could be high I suspect.

Make the decision & enjoy your stay

I read the post you attached and it is simply not true to suggest a visa allows unlimited travel anywhere within the Schengen area, a French visa or Spanish visa is exactly that, not a Schengen visa. You could spend 90 days anywhere in Schengen area, then 90 to 180 days in France only followed by a further 90 days anywhere in Schengen area.

The article quotes “However, it is possible to obtain a Visa which will allow UK citizens to travel within the Schengen zone for 6 months /180 days.”

 

[mikebeaches]

Interesting to read the detailed process, documentation and administration required to obtain a 180-day tourism visa for France.

Thanks for posting the information and congratulations on gaining an extended-stay visa.

 

[Dwarfland]

My understanding is that your French visa is exactly that, France only, just like the Spanish one is Spain only. Otherwise it would be a Schengen visa.

Yes it would be difficult with a French one to be caught unless you entered a non Schengen country, like Croatia where there are still border checks, but it does not make it legal to overstay the 90 in Schengen area and if caught the penalties could be high I suspect.

Make the decision & enjoy your stay

I read the post you attached and it is simply not true to suggest a visa allows unlimited travel anywhere within the Schengen area, a French visa or Spanish visa is exactly that, not a Schengen visa. You could spend 90 days anywhere in Schengen area, then 90 to 180 days in France only followed by a further 90 days anywhere in Schengen area.

The article quotes “However, it is possible to obtain a Visa which will allow UK citizens to travel within the Schengen zone for 6 months /180 days.”

TLS, the outsourced visa processing operation told me that the France 180 day visa allowed travel throughout Schengen for that period. I’ve since seen people say it’s only for France but as I’ve now exited France into Spain with no passport check, who’s to say how long I e been in either country anyway?

 

[Langtoftlad]

Until something goes wrong...

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[nicholsong]

I posted this on another thread on this topic.

If you come into France from UK, or other non-Schengen country, your details are recorded in the shared Schengen computer. If you leave Schengen from France after 270 days or so your details will have to be entered into the same computer and it will show an overstay.

How will the Schengen computer and the French authorities cope with the overstay alarm?

Are the French authorities just going to waive you out without recording your exit, in which case you remain an overstayer?

Nobody gave me an answer to this problem.

Geoff

 

[Barti Ddu]

I very much hope you are right. However, what happens if you have a RTA, or are hospitalised outside France, or have any other potential brush with officialdom?? Good luck. Keep those fingers crossed!

 

[nicholsong]

TLS, the outsourced visa processing operation told me that the France 180 day visa allowed travel throughout Schengen for that period. I’ve since seen people say it’s only for France but as I’ve now exited France into Spain with no passport check, who’s to say how long I e been in either country anyway?

Schengen knows when you entered, regardless of which Schengen country you were in and Schengen has a 90 day rule by which time you have to exit.

So unless you can find a specific waiver from Schengen which adds 180 days to the 90 days, because you have a French, or Spanish or Portugal, 180 day visa, I should be very careful. Perhaps phone the British Consulate now, before you have to phone them from a prison cell.

 

[Dwarfland]

Schengen knows when you entered, regardless of which Schengen country you were in and Schengen has a 90 day rule by which time you have to exit.

So unless you can find a specific waiver from Schengen which adds 180 days to the 90 days, because you have a French, or Spanish or Portugal, 180 day visa, I should be very careful. Perhaps phone the British Consulate now, before you have to phone them from a prison cell.

Prison cell?! Yeah I’m sure they’re going to go that far. The point is I have a Visa which allows 180 days, at worst but not clear, in France alone. On top of that I have the 90 days in Schengen which is ‘Visa free travel’. Therefore whichever way you look at it, the France visa allows up to 180 days in France (and it’s multi entry) plus 90 in any Schengen country.

 

[MisterB]

Your 6 month visa for France CANNOT be rolled over into your Schengen 'allowance'. You MUST leave France through a passport controlled area and then return to start your Schengen 'allowance'. I discussed this at length with Svetlana at TLS. The simple way would be to park up your motorhome at an airport, fly out of France, getting your passport stamped showing you have left France before your 6 month visa expires, then fly back as a Schengen visitor. In theory you could do Schengen before and after your 6 month visa, using the same process.

As for leaving France during your 6 month visa to visit other EU countries, I was told that would not be 'allowed', but quite how they would police it seems a bit wooly to say the least. If I felt so inclined, it wouldn't bother me for a couple of weeks here and there, to visit other countries, so long as passports weren't being checked, but I wouldn't push it any further than that, however I would be mindful of the new process ETA, and ensure I wasn't going to compromise the validity of my visa.

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[Dwarfland]

Your 6 month visa for France CANNOT be rolled over into your Schengen 'allowance'. You MUST leave France through a passport controlled area and then return to start your Schengen 'allowance'. I discussed this at length with Svetlana at TLS. The simple way would be to park up your motorhome at an airport, fly out of France, getting your passport stamped showing you have left France before your 6 month visa expires, then fly back as a Schengen visitor. In theory you could do Schengen before and after your 6 month visa, using the same process.

As for leaving France during your 6 month visa to visit other EU countries, I was told that would not be 'allowed', but quite how they would police it seems a bit wooly to say the least. If I felt so inclined, it wouldn't bother me for a couple of weeks here and there, to visit other countries, so long as passports weren't being checked, but I wouldn't push it any further than that, however I would be mindful of the new process ETA, and ensure I wasn't going to compromise the validity of my visa.

So if you’re not allowed to visit other countries why does it clearly state ‘multi entry visa’? TLS told me in two phone calls and again in person at their office that you can leave France and return via land borders at any time during the visa period.

 

[dunnah01]

So if you’re not allowed to visit other countries why does it clearly state ‘multi entry visa’? TLS told me in two phone calls and again in person at their office that you can leave France and return via land borders at any time during the visa period.

Presumably you'd need the relevant visa for whichever country you hopped into from France?

 

[nicholsong]

So if you’re not allowed to visit other countries why does it clearly state ‘multi entry visa’? TLS told me in two phone calls and again in person at their office that you can leave France and return via land borders at any time during the visa period.

That is the French position maybe, but you still have a Schengen entry stamp on a certain date and will be leaving Schengen on a date which is well beyond the 90 days - or you stay in Schengen forever.

You keep talking about in/out France and have not addressed the Schengen entry/exit reality. You could be in for a big fall.

 

[jumar]

And the Workaround goes on, Beating Schengen, why do so many folk not understand what the Withdrawal Agreement means.....if a Schengen country issues a visa, its for staying in their country....simple as that....not the freedom to roam as and where they want...

 

[jongood]

And the Workaround goes on, Beating Schengen, why do so many folk not understand what the Withdrawal Agreement means.....if a Schengen country issues a visa, its for staying in their country....simple as that....not the freedom to roam as and where they want...

It is an unfortunate consequence of a decision we took mostly for other reasons, some good , some bad but hey ho its done so I can live with it in the short term because luckily we've got other options. I do believe it is in everyone's interest to find a better long term solution.

Because of the inevitable resentment built up during the 'divorce' I'm not expecting a quick resolution to this issue but it would be nice in future to see a halfway house of some kind, somewhere between staying in a selection of 27 countries for 3 months and if you want to stay longer you need to select one to apply to live there.

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[Carpmart]

My interpretation would be this.

French 180 day multi entry visa is just that, 180 calendar days. The clock starts from the start date of that visa and ends on the 180 day end date. One can enter and exit as many times as one should wish during that period. It’s not a bank of days to be used as I wish, to fill in Schengen gaps..

So, playing that out in the real world, I enter France from UK and the clock is ticking at the start date of my 180 day visa. I later enter Spain as an example, I am allowed to do this and my 90/180 Schengen is in play. The fact the border isn’t manned, I keep a record, proof would be great, fuel or other receipts. The French visa is still running, but I’m using an exit and entry to another EU country, so third National, so using my 90/180 days, remember the fixed term 180 day visa clock is still ticking.

In ‘actual’ practice, you can exit via France at 180 days without declaring any use of your 90/180 Schengen allowance should you stray over borders during your French visa stay. There is no one to enforce it..

You could also after your 180 day visa, turn around and head back as a third county tourist with a stamp in the passport and the clock ticking on your 90 days.

 

[MisterB]

So if you’re not allowed to visit other countries why does it clearly state ‘multi entry visa’? TLS told me in two phone calls and again in person at their office that you can leave France and return via land borders at any time during the visa period.

I was also told (as you were) that multi entry referred to being able to leave and enter France as many times as you wish during the period of the visa, whichever border you travel across, whether it be land, sea or air, but in doing so you then become subject to the rules of whichever other country you enter. Having a 6 month visa doesn't mean you can't leave France for 6 months, it means you can be in France at any time during the dates covered by your visa. It's not compulsory to stay in France.

However, France cannot give you permission to legally enter a different country, only that particular country can.

Under Schengen, whichever country you enter first, act as the gatekeeper and takes on the responsibility to ensure you can enter the Schengen zone, on behalf of the other countries and whichever country you exit the Schengen zone from, also in a gatekeeper role, takes on the responsibility to ensure you have complied with Schengen rules.

If you left France and entered Spain for instance, I don't think you would be in Spain under Schengen and running down your Schengen 'clock', although you would be running down your French visa 'clock'. You would in theory be in a country in the Schengen zone without the permission of that country.

Remember your French visa is between specific dates, so doesn't extend past the date by any time spent out of France.

How they would police your time in Schengen countries having entered from France is the 'wooly' bit. I suppose if you have decided to visit a different country and are stopped by the police for any reason, then you won't have a valid entry stamp on your passport and you may be treated as entering their country illegally. But would it be your fault that they didn't stamp your passport? Is that something that could be argued legally? Would you want to go through that?

If you try to book a hotel or possibly a campsite where you have to produce your passport, then again it will be unstamped and they MAY deem you have entered their country illegally? How you might be treated as an illegal immigrant under those circumstances would probably differ, depending on which country you were in. Would you be deported and passport stamped as an illegal immigrant to just that country or the Schengen zone? I assume it will just be that one country and they may refuse further entry for a period of time. Or they may not?

just to reiterate, France cannot give you permission to enter a different country they can only give you permission to enter and re-enter France.

 

[Barti Ddu]

Dwarfland - as you are one of the first few to have gone down the French Tourist Visa route, I'd be interested to know how the visa is physically supplied by TLS. Is it stuck into / stamped onto your passport so that when you activate it at the French border the entry stamp is stamped against the visa in your passport indicating that you have entered France under the 180 day visa rather than under the usual 90 day Schengen rules? What will then happen when you leave France again at the end of 180 days (270 days if you were to try and run the two periods consecutively)? Perhaps more importantly than the actual stamps in the passport, how is recorded electronically in the Schengen system?

 

[Dwarfland]

My interpretation would be this.

French 180 day multi entry visa is just that, 180 calendar days. The clock starts from the start date of that visa and ends on the 180 day end date. One can enter and exit as many times as one should wish during that period. It’s not a bank of days to be used as I wish, to fill in Schengen gaps..

So, playing that out in the real world, I enter France from UK and the clock is ticking at the start date of my 180 day visa. I later enter Spain as an example, I am allowed to do this and my 90/180 Schengen is in play. The fact the border isn’t manned, I keep a record, proof would be great, fuel or other receipts. The French visa is still running, but I’m using an exit and entry to another EU country, so third National, so using my 90/180 days, remember the fixed term 180 day visa clock is still ticking.

In ‘actual’ practice, you can exit via France at 180 days without declaring any use of your 90/180 Schengen allowance should you stray over borders during your French visa stay. There is no one to enforce it..

You could also after your 180 day visa, turn around and head back as a third county tourist with a stamp in the passport and the clock ticking on your 90 days.

You’re correct, the France via runs for a finite 6 mth period and allows multi entry during that time frame. My view is that if I enter and exit via a French port, that’s highly likely to be the only time anyone checks my passport. Therefore, as long as I’m within the date range of the visa, is the customs official when I leave France going to care where I’ve been during those 6 months? If they do care, do they have any easy way of checking?

And that’s a key point- are they really going to care about Brits overstaying? They may, and that will probably be politically driven. What I’m hearing and seeing, is that at present they don’t. I’ve heard of people who have already exceeded the 90/180 days entering and exiting through Malaga airport and if arriving from U.K. the customs official just stamps them in, no questions asked. It comes down to interpretation of rules and attitude to risk at the end of the day I guess.

 

[MisterB]

My interpretation would be this.


So, playing that out in the real world, I enter France from UK and the clock is ticking at the start date of my 180 day visa. I later enter Spain as an example, I am allowed to do this and my 90/180 Schengen is in play. The fact the border isn’t manned, I keep a record, proof would be great, fuel or other receipts. The French visa is still running, but I’m using an exit and entry to another EU country, so third National, so using my 90/180 days, remember the fixed term 180 day visa clock is still ticking.

What you have actually done though is entered Spain illegally, without permission. You haven't entered the Schengen zone, you have entered Spain illegally. The fact you have driven through a border is irrelevant. You could have swam in the sea across the border, but in doing so would also have entered Spain illegally. There are lots of ports you can sail a boat into, but you must report yourself to the Authorities as wishing to enter their country. Driving across a border is no different, you must present yourself to the Authorities.
The only real thing at issue here is how it would be dealt with

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[Coolcats]

You need one of these, to go back in time when movement across Europe was unrestricted. Today as hard as people might want this freedom remember we did not want it, and it’s the Russians fault.

 

[Dwarfland]

Dwarfland - as you are one of the first few to have gone down the French Tourist Visa route, I'd be interested to know how the visa is physically supplied by TLS. Is it stuck into / stamped onto your passport so that when you activate it at the French border the entry stamp is stamped against the visa in your passport indicating that you have entered France under the 180 day visa rather than under the usual 90 day Schengen rules? What will then happen when you leave France again at the end of 180 days (270 days if you were to try and run the two periods consecutively)? Perhaps more importantly than the actual stamps in the passport, how is recorded electronically in the Schengen system?

It’s a physical visa with my photo stuck into my passport like any other visa. Upon entry to France, I received an entry stamp, though interestingly it’s on a different page to the visa. That maybe due to my having many visas already in an ‘extra pages’ passport and the customs official didn’t spot the visa, I don’t know. Either way, as I see it, I have an entry stamp for Schengen countries in the same way anyone else would. I have a visa which says I can exit any time up to xxxx (6 mths from entry) and it’s a multi entry visa. Therefore my (perhaps simplistic) view is that as long as I leave via France within 6 mths, will they care where I’ve been during that time? I have a Schengen entry stamp which covers me for any EU country under the 90/180 rule. The grey area is if I spend more than 90 days outside France within the 6 months. That’s probably not allowed, but again, who would know?

 

[StephandJohn]

This is very interesting. Thanks to all the posters. Before Brexit we regularly spent about 3 months touring various countries. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. We'll obviously have to curtail our wander lust now and make sure we're back in the 90 days. Shame as we liked the freedom before of just making it up as we went along.
A while ago there was some discussion on having to have a return ferry/tunnel booked before you leave the UK. Is that true?

 

[Coolcats]

It’s a physical visa with my photo stuck into my passport like any other visa. Upon entry to France, I received an entry stamp, though interestingly it’s on a different page to the visa. That maybe due to my having many visas already in an ‘extra pages’ passport and the customs official didn’t spot the visa, I don’t know. Either way, as I see it, I have an entry stamp for Schengen countries in the same way anyone else would. I have a visa which says I can exit any time up to xxxx (6 mths from entry) and it’s a multi entry visa. Therefore my (perhaps simplistic) view is that as long as I leave via France within 6 mths, will they care where I’ve been during that time? I have a Schengen entry stamp which covers me for any EU country under the 90/180 rule. The grey area is if I spend more than 90 days outside France within the 6 months. That’s probably not allowed, but again, who would know?

The french and other countries do have computers they ‘know’ when you arrive and ‘know’ when you leave.

 

[Dwarfland]

What you have actually done though is entered Spain illegally, without permission. You haven't entered the Schengen zone, you have entered Spain illegally. The fact you have driven through a border is irrelevant. You could have swam in the sea across the border, but in doing so would also have entered Spain illegally. There are lots of ports you can sail a boat into, but you must report yourself to the Authorities as wishing to enter their country. Driving across a border is no different, you must present yourself to the Authorities.
The only real thing at issue here is how it would be dealt with

I have a Schengen entry stamp from the French port, exactly the same as you would have. Why is mine any different to yours, therefore precluding me from visiting any Schengen country? The stamp is on a different page to the visa, so the only difference between your entry and mine would be that I also have a visa allowing me to exit France up to 180 days after entry.

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[Dwarfland]

This is very interesting. Thanks to all the posters. Before Brexit we regularly spent about 3 months touring various countries. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. We'll obviously have to curtail our wander lust now and make sure we're back in the 90 days. Shame as we liked the freedom before of just making it up as we went along.
A while ago there was some discussion on having to have a return ferry/tunnel booked before you leave the UK. Is that true?

I’m sure some doomsayers will tell you you need to have return ferries booked but no. To get the French visa you need to provide outbound ferry booking but not return. You also need an accommodation address for which I provided 1st night campsite address and a rough plan of where we intended to travel.

 

[uzsnowdrop]

And the Workaround goes on, Beating Schengen, why do so many folk not understand what the Withdrawal Agreement means.....if a Schengen country issues a visa, its for staying in their country....simple as that....not the freedom to roam as and where they want...

We need a referendum

 

[Carpmart]

What you have actually done though is entered Spain illegally, without permission. You haven't entered the Schengen zone, you have entered Spain illegally. The fact you have driven through a border is irrelevant. You could have swam in the sea across the border, but in doing so would also have entered Spain illegally. There are lots of ports you can sail a boat into, but you must report yourself to the Authorities as wishing to enter their country. Driving across a border is no different, you must present yourself to the Authorities.
The only real thing at issue here is how it would be dealt with

You are of course quite correct, but no one in Spain gives a hoot, else they would man their land borders….

All we are doing with these conversations is working out how to navigate bureaucracy and remain the correct side of the rules concerning the EU entry and exit points, not overstay and most importantly, enjoy travelling as much as we can…

 

[Dwarfland]

The french and other countries do have computers they ‘know’ when you arrive and ‘know’ when you leave.

Of course but as the borders are open, the only relevant one is the return to U.K. or when you leave Schengen via a non open border. Does a French customs official at Calais have access to all your movements across Schengen on his screen? I don’t know, but have never heard of that.

 

[mofurt]

For the first 90 days, it would appear to be no grey area - you have the same Schengen entry stamp so if you are stopped in Spain or have your passport examined at a campsite, you are the same as everyone else.
After 90 days following your initial entry into France you may be into a game of explaining to officialdom in Spain (other Schengen countries are available) that you have been staying in France using the French visa and only popped over there for a few days. That is obviously harder than just being a "normal" tourist within the 90 day rule. Whether you would ever be pulled up on that is another matter. I'd certainly be trying to ensure I left via France at the end of the 180 days.

This, and roaming mobiles, used to be so much simpler - it's now a minefield of needing to know little bits of things from multiple sources

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