A Frame

[MaureenD]

Can any one tell me if the A frame for towing is legal.
Thanks
Maureen

 

[Brisey]

Hi Maureen

There are arguements both for and against your question.oh:oh:oh:

As far as I know, there have been no court cases or prosecutions regarding the use of A frames. Until there is and the judgement is known there will be no definite conclusion to the arguement.

 

[Braunston]

Hi,

If you use the search facility you will find a number of threads on the subject which may help you make your own judgement as its a very argumentative subject and i don't think I have ever seen a comprehensive agreement that both sides could accept

 

[bobandjanie]

Hi if you asked me : is your A Frame illegal I would say NO it is a braked one.

I have yet to meet someone that has had any trouble, we were in Spain in Jan / Feb there were people with A Frames, we have just been to France for a month no problem, I think people just like to talk about them, because its never them thats had the problem is someone else:Sad: so I would say its a gamble if you dont fancy doing it dont. Just like I dont fancy having a car on a trailer.But there is still a lot of people having them fitted.

I think its like the thing with being gassed whilst you sleep, not met one yet, and I know it does happen, but if you worry about these thing you would never leave the house. Good Luck. Bob.:thumb:

 

[MaureenD]

Thanks to Brisey Braunston & Bob for your info. We would like to do it and have a few months to look at all the advantages/disadvantages but will proberly do it next season
Maureen

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[Jim]

I look at it this way, if you get the odd fine every 5 years or so that is a small price to pay for not having to mess about with a trailer. Finding somewhere on site to store it, securing it, and replacing it every now and then when it gets nicked and isn't covered on your insurance.

A frames are proven safe, with millions of miles towed. Go and get one, and if the Spanish Police stop you, tell them Jim said it would be OK

 

[Geo]

Has anyone been gassed whilst towing with an A frame
Geo

 

[bobandjanie]

 

[bobandjanie]

We should start a have you been gassed thread I only know of one Lorry driver that said he was gassed when his load was stolen. But was he. Bob.

 

[backstreetbarry]

A frames

Thanks to Brisey Braunston & Bob for your info. We would like to do it and have a few months to look at all the advantages/disadvantages but will proberly do it next season
Maureen

see back threads re A frame and get the paperwork that one supplier gives you when you get the frame fitted. This paperwork really helps when you are stopped. The Spanish Police are realy impressed with the Court Case in Spain and the eventual return of the fine!!!. We have been stopped three times in Spain, produced our paperwork and have been allowed to go on our way. So now funsters, you all know someone who has been stopped and NO we haven't been gassed. Happy travels

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[ruffingitsmoothly]

see back threads re A frame and get the paperwork that one supplier gives you when you get the frame fitted. This paperwork really helps when you are stopped. The Spanish Police are realy impressed with the Court Case in Spain and the eventual return of the fine!!!. We have been stopped three times in Spain, produced our paperwork and have been allowed to go on our way. So now funsters, you all know someone who has been stopped and NO we haven't been gassed. Happy travels

Hi is there a link to a copy of this paperwork so I can download it please?

Thanks

Regards Pat

 

[Forestboy]

Hi is there a link to a copy of this paperwork so I can download it please?

Thanks

Regards Pat

Me too please :thumb:

 

[karalal]

a frame document

I found this on the towtal website if is of any use
Link Removed
towcar disclaimer

 

[MaureenD]

Thanks all for your help. Karalal I have phoned Towtal seems pretty good.
Just another question to ask. Are they easy to reverse?? do they reverse like an ordinary trailer.
Maureen

 

[dazzer]

Thanks all for your help. Karalal I have phoned Towtal seems pretty good.
Just another question to ask. Are they easy to reverse?? do they reverse like an ordinary trailer.
Maureen

You cannot reverse a car on an A frame for any more than a couple of feet unless the steering lock is engaged and then only in a straightish line

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[moandick]

Hi Maureen

You have just hit the nail on the head with your question of whether you can reverse an A Frame. Some people will tell you that they can - whilst others (such as me) will tell you that it is NOT possible to reverse an A Frame under control.

Two simple reasons (which have been bandied about endlessly for several years now):

1: The braking system on the A Frame is applied when the towed car presses against the slowing down motorhome. Common sense will tell you that if you therefore try to reverse an A frame - you will be pushing against the A Frame - therefore you will be applying the brakes on the towed car.
This is most apparent when you stop your 'rig' on a downhill slope. The weight of the towed car will want to push the A Frame down hill whilst the motorhome is stopped with the result that the brakes on the A Frame will be applied and you will have problems with disconnecting the A Frame from the motorhome!
Now some people will come back and say "Well how do they reverse Caravans the?" Simple - the caravan has an 'over-ride' system fitted which is specifically designed for that purpose - BUT oyur car does NOT have that over-ride system fitted!

2: When reversing a trailer you swing the trailer around on a central pivot (be it a single OR twin axle trailer) where the wheels on the trailer are fairly close together.
Where the wheels on a trailer are quite far apart (ie one axle at the front and one axle at the rear) you will need to be able to 'steer' the trailer with the front set of wheels.
BUT on a car (with the one axle set at the front and one set at the rear of the car) you cannot steer the front set of wheels with the A Frame (which is attached to the car - not the axle) therefore you cannot steer the trailer.
For proof of the pudding in everyday life - try steering a supermarket trolley where both the front and back wheels are locked in one direction - it simply doesn't go where you want it to!

 

[Geo]

Hi Maureen

You have just hit the nail on the head with your question of whether you can reverse an A Frame. Some people will tell you that they can - whilst others (such as me) will tell you that it is NOT possible to reverse an A Frame under control.

Two simple reasons (which have been bandied about endlessly for several years now):

1: The braking system on the A Frame is applied when the towed car presses against the slowing down motorhome. Common sense will tell you that if you therefore try to reverse an A frame - you will be pushing against the A Frame - therefore you will be applying the brakes on the towed car.
This is most apparent when you stop your 'rig' on a downhill slope. The weight of the towed car will want to push the A Frame down hill whilst the motorhome is stopped with the result that the brakes on the A Frame will be applied and you will have problems with disconnecting the A Frame from the motorhome!
Now some people will come back and say "Well how do they reverse Caravans the?" Simple - the caravan has an 'over-ride' system fitted which is specifically designed for that purpose - BUT oyur car does NOT have that over-ride system fitted!

2: When reversing a trailer you swing the trailer around on a central pivot (be it a single OR twin axle trailer) where the wheels on the trailer are fairly close together.
Where the wheels on a trailer are quite far apart (ie one axle at the front and one axle at the rear) you will need to be able to 'steer' the trailer with the front set of wheels.
BUT on a car (with the one axle set at the front and one set at the rear of the car) you cannot steer the front set of wheels with the A Frame (which is attached to the car - not the axle) therefore you cannot steer the trailer.
For proof of the pudding in everyday life - try steering a supermarket trolley where both the front and back wheels are locked in one direction - it simply doesn't go where you want it to!

Im sure I once said to you Dick, that you must read between the lines.
This time I think you have read too much in between the lines and are applying criteria to the rules that clearly are not there,
when asked if I can swim I reply yes,
when asked if I can reverse my towed A framed car I reply yes.
No where in either questions does it ask how far, and the regs don't state how far either, it just says must be capable of being reversed and mine it would appear as well as Dazzers can be.
But we really don't want to go there Again do we
Geo

 

[dazzer]

Im sure I once said to you Dick, that you must read between the lines.
This time I think you have read too much in between the lines and are applying criteria to the rules that clearly are not there,
when asked if I can swim I reply yes,
when asked if I can reverse my towed A framed car I reply yes.
No where in either questions does it ask how far, and the regs don't state how far either, it just says must be capable of being reversed and mine it would appear as well as Dazzers can be.
But we really don't want to go there Again do we
Geo

Yupp i can confirm that my Jeep on the A frame was reversed about 3 feet when i got a tight corner wrong on a site. I have also locked the steering wheel and reversed it about 25 feet with no problems. With the steering lock off i managed about 10 feet backwards before the wheel started to turn and make a mess of things. :thumb:

 

[vwalan]

i agree with geo n dazzer all we have to do is not break the rules . follow them to our best belief we dont have to make them complicated. i also can reverse with my a frame . its sometimes very difficult , try a small trailer behind a large camper thats impossible if you want acuracy.i would like to see most caravaners reverse a steerable drag trailer. or even a motor bike on a front wheel lift tow.

 

[2bob]

hello i agree with all that is said but what if u try using somethink like on the old caravans where u had to filp lock over on the hich head

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[vwalan]

my a frame as one like you said but how it works with a new one witha new car does it brake trailer rules? off we go will have to refer to more rules

 

[Geo]

my a frame as one like you said but how it works with a new one witha new car does it brake trailer rules? off we go will have to refer to more rules

Hi 2 Bob a very intersting comment, I made the same statement about the old lift over devise many many moons ago in the early debate and the young whippersnappers DENIED its very existence:thumb: apart from that its not just the weight of the car that applies the overrun brakes, it has more to do with the inertia which in effect tripples the towed weight, that is what realy applies the brakes, so a slow reverse has little or no effect, if you have any experiance in reversing the old caravans and it was pi**ing down you could overcome the need to get out and apply the hand operated mechanism by just reversing steady, same applies to the A frame
Geo
ps if you have your cable set so the slightest push applies the brakes you have it set wrong

 

[pappajohn]

A frames are proven safe, with millions of miles towed. Go and get one, and if the Spanish Police stop you, tell them Jim said it would be OK

what a nice chap you are Jim, now could i have that in writing please on motorhomefun headed paper.

 

[pappajohn]

Has anyone been gassed whilst towing with an A frame
Geo

Oh what have you done now Geo,

two long debated topics in one postoh:

you're just a war monger.

 

[Geo]

Oh what have you done now Geo,

two long debated topics in one postoh:

you're just a war monger.

I try my best John,
Geo

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[pappajohn]

hello i agree with all that is said but what if u try using somethink like on the old caravans where u had to filp lock over on the hich head

the law states ,basicly, if you have to get out and do something mechanical to be able to reverse, IE:- flipping over the lever, then it aint legal anymore, hence the use of the auto-reverse brakes.

until someone gets nicked and the courts set a precidence then it will be neither legal nor illegal.

 

[ruffingitsmoothly]

Lets add another for the debate on legality

I have a brake-buddy I use in the toad so reversing is not a problem regards the brake issue, unfortunately when you do try to reverse the steered wheels on the toad will turn the opposite way due to the camber effect thereby locking up with posible bending of the 'A' frame and/or fittings/chassis:Sad::Sad:

Regards Pat

 

[Geo]

Lets add another for the debate on legality

I have a brake-buddy I use in the toad so reversing is not a problem regards the brake issue, unfortunately when you do try to reverse the steered wheels on the toad will turn the opposite way due to the camber effect thereby locking up with posible bending of the 'A' frame and/or fittings/chassis:Sad::Sad:

Regards Pat

Hiya Pat
Yet another who says they can't reverse, is it a geometry thing I wonder, as we basicly only have personal knowledge of one possibly two differant toads, is it a case of some cars can and some cars wontoh:
Geo
Ps you.d be hard pushed to bend a Towtal A frame but I take your point
also is the requirement for auto reverse only reqd on trailors and caravans of a certain age,what year is your A frame, mines a 1943 Officer

 

[vwalan]

the auto brake rule came outin 1989 my a frame is older than that. but does the a frame or the car make the date ?thats a good one for someone to answer. can anybody reverse a towboy with a car on ?i also have an harvey frost towboy its really hard to reverse that one . it is braked ,i prefer it to a frame . if its towable i probably have one here i did recoverywork for ages and used allsorts .

 

[Geo]

the auto brake rule came outin 1989 my a frame is older than that. but does the a frame or the car make the date ?thats a good one for someone to answer. can anybody reverse a towboy with a car on ?i also have an harvey frost towboy its really hard to reverse that one . it is braked ,i prefer it to a frame . if its towable i probably have one here i did recoverywork for ages and used allsorts .

The technicly correct answer is
The A frame is not a trailor
The car is not a trailor
when you put the two together they become a trailor

Date of manufacture
2 milli seconds after you hitch up
Geo

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