A-Frame

[Jackoscoot]

Hi fellow motorhomers,
We have just tried to book Brittany ferries to Santander with the motorhome towing a car on an A-frame and been told that they won't take the booking as its a legal in Spain to tow on a A-frame.
Has this happened to anybody else?

 

[Despicable]

A few years ago there were quite a few stories in MMM magazine of the Spanish police taking a dim view with the use of A-frames. I believe it's illegal in Germany, unless the car's broken down and in France it depends if the policeman has had his end away recently and is, therefore, in a good mood.

 

[busby]

Totally illegal in Spain,,BUSBY.

 

[Speve]

It will be interesting to see what happens when other carriers are faced with this and what their responses will be I assume when France opens up there won’t be a problem getting there with A Frames? It could just be direct travel to Spain affected?

 

[Ivory55]

Would Brittany ferry get done for aiding and abetting if they accept the booking ?

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[tonyidle]

Why not do as you would with any other aspect of motoring in a foreign country? Find out what the law is for that country then obey it?

 

[bigtwin]

Why not do as you would with any other aspect of motoring in a foreign country? Find out what the law is for that country then obey it?

A bit of a blunt response to a newby.

Ian

 

[Jackoscoot]

Having seen other threads on this site I expected something like that from somebody.
We was told that they could be used abroad although a bit of a grey area in some countries.
However that was before we left the EU.

 

[Sheddy]

Strange, going the other way we had no problems with BF returning with our car on an A frame from Santander in February. It was booked as a trailer, and no comments were made by the loading staff or the Police while waiting to board.
(NO we didn't tow it to the port).

 

[Jackoscoot]

However don't know how Brittany ferries can say they won't take our booking because its illegal, how many people drive off ferries over the drink limit but they don't stop these people

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[Conal]

We looked at all the threads on this and other forums, and at what the A frame manufacturers say, and decided that we would go ahead with buying the A frame as we would be sticking to the the UK for the next year. One of the reasons we would not tow by A frame in France and Spain is that my wife would not be happy driving in those countries if we were stopped.
Discussions about this subject on forums are like asking who likes marmite - don’t be surprised to see the popcorn emoji appear soon!

 

[Jackoscoot]

However don't know how Brittany ferries can say they won't take our booking because its illegal, how many people drive off ferries over the drink limit but they don't stop these people
Maybe just book the car on separately then

 

[Jackoscoot]

Hi Sheddy did you have any issues while using A frame in Spain?

 

[gus-lopez]

Having seen other threads on this site I expected something like that from somebody.
We was told that they could be used abroad although a bit of a grey area in some countries.
However that was before we left the EU.

It is illegal here to tow another vehicle. It is not a "trailer" here.

(NO we didn't tow it to the port).

Hi Sheddy did you have any issues while using A frame in Spain?

Did you miss the last line above? He didn't A frame it through spain to the port.

 

[cmcardle75]

However don't know how Brittany ferries can say they won't take our booking because its illegal, how many people drive off ferries over the drink limit but they don't stop these people
Maybe just book the car on separately then

If you told them that you intended to drive off the ferry over the drink drive limit, they'd also refuse to take your booking.

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[Langtoftlad]

I suspect that Brittany Ferries would be reluctant to take your booking if you told them it was your intention to get drunk aboard & drive off their boat in an intoxicated state.

 

[Despicable]

An oft quoted axiom is the difference between UK law and that of a lot of mainland European countries': in the latter's case it is illegal to do anything that has not been made legal to do so; whilst in the case of the UK it is legal to do anything, unless it's been made illegal by law. So, unless the Spaniards make using an A-frame legal, it is illegal. In UK no law has been passed to make it illegal, so, by default, it's legal.

 

[Langtoftlad]

I don't why people insist on saying A-Frames are a grey area in France/Spain
It's not, it's illegal to use one.
You might get away without being stopped - but that doesn't make it legal.

It's a grey area in the UK because our attitude to the rule of law is different here.
In the UK everything is allowed until there's a law against it.
Mostly in the EU, it is not allowed unless there is a law allowing it.

Edited - snap!

 

[2 Jabs]

Popcorn

 

[Cheshirecat57]

I am a fan of A frames ( declare early so OP knows which side of fence im on)

BUT and its a huge BUT, the talk about a “grey area” on legality on mainland europe was all based on UK being a member state and EU countries complying with some vague convention or other
Even IF there was a grey area ( and Im not saying there was) when we were a member state.....there certainly isn't now.

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[cmcardle75]

I am a fan of A frames ( declare early so OP knows which side of fence im on)

BUT and its a huge BUT, the talk about a “grey area” on legality on mainland europe was all based on UK being a member state and EU countries complying with some vague convention or other
Even IF there was a grey area ( and Im not saying there was) when we were a member state.....there certainly isn't now.

Actually, the convention being relied predates the EU, so Brexit makes no legal difference. However, this doesn't mean the Spanish police will care one jot. You'll still get a fine if they're in the mood (and a car abandoned at the roadside).

 

[2 Jabs]

I take a toad when touring UK but wouldn't take it abroad.

 

[busby]

Having seen other threads on this site I expected something like that from somebody.
We was told that they could be used abroad although a bit of a grey area in some countries.
However that was before we left the EU.

It was illegal before we left the EU,BUSBY.

 

[Despicable]

It was illegal before we left the EU,BUSBY.

I think there was a belief that if 'it' was legal in your home EU country, then 'it' was legal in a EU host's country. This, if it ever existed, was frequently overturned by 6' 5" leather-clad policemen with a gun.

 

[TheBig1]

I think there was a belief that if 'it' was legal in your home EU country, then 'it' was legal in a EU host's country. This, if it ever existed, was frequently overturned by 6' 5" leather-clad policemen with a gun.

I didn't know that the village people had an opinion on this matter?

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[DDJC]

I've used our A Frame in Ireland and the Gards didn't care. However, 'twas winter and the Gards were all cosy and warm in their Barracks, so don't take that as indicative.

I did extensive digging on this and as you would expect, what is said above is pretty correct. It mostly varies on the country and on the individual cop who tugs you. What you should never do is accept the word of the A Frame salesman. We were given a multilingual sort of get-out-of-jail-free paper. Showed it to my nephew who has idiomatic French and he said it didn't make sense.

Anyway, as far as I can determine, the 1968 Vienna Convention states that the vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration. Any conflicting technical requirements (e.g., right-hand-drive or left-hand-drive) in the signatory country where the vehicle is being driven do not apply. However, there is scope within the Convention for individual countries to make local differences.

UK and most of Yerp are signatories, so in theory you should be fine if your car is legal in UK. BUT, there is a problem. A Frames are NOT legal in Britain. They are simply deemed to be NOT ILLEGAL - a subtle difference that affects the Vienna Convention. Every so often, someone tries to get a test case done to force the DoT to make a definitive decision, and every time the DoT can't or won't decide.

From advice received locally, the Dutch Police are usually OK. The Italians aren't usually particularly energised either. The German & Belgian Feds are 50/50. The French less inclined to let it go and the Spanish will never miss a chance at stopping a motorist and issuing a fine.

So, despite having a Suzuki Ignis with the A Frame fittings, we stick it on our Woodford LWT 072 twin axle trailer, every time, home and aboard. Gets us 260kg extra kit weight too.

PS. Wanna buy an A Frame?

PPS. the other reason we don't use it as the electronic ignition started and it blew a hole in the engine block. £3500

 

[Langtoftlad]

I think there was a belief that if 'it' was legal in your home EU country, then 'it' was legal in a EU host's country. This, if it ever existed, was frequently overturned by 6' 5" leather-clad policemen with a gun.

Plus... it's not definitively legal in the UK, so that claim under that convention is weak... it just not been proven illegal.

 

[Despicable]

I didn't know that the village people had an opinion on this matter?

Good point: DON'T DROP YOUR CAR KEYS!

 

[tonyidle]

A bit of a blunt response to a newby.

Ian

Sorry Jackoscoot I didn't notice your newby status. Basically the UK assumes it is a trailer but isn't sure because it has never been tested in court. France and Spain think it's still a car and only allow towing for recovery purposes and only then by a recovery service. Those who want to tow in those countries want it to be a grey area but it doesn't seem that way to me.

 

[tonyidle]

I think there was a belief that if 'it' was legal in your home EU country, then 'it' was legal in a EU host's country. This, if it ever existed, was frequently overturned by 6' 5" leather-clad policemen with a gun.

If that was true you would be able to apply UK speed limits.

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