A Frame advice

[pandas]

Can I ask any a frame users if they get stone chips on the tow car whilst towing or do I need a cover or dirt brush under the MH for the front of the tow car, or does the overhang stop this issue?

No never

 

[bigtwin]

Just in case anyone is interested, I have a Fiat 500 tow car listed in the Classified section of this very forum.

Ian

 

[Charlie9038]

will be new to this is it a good idea to book awning pitch with a toad.

 

[Peakclimber]

If anyone is looking to tow on the continent and stay legal please have a look at the trailer and convertible Smart car I have for sale in the classifieds..

 

[bobnick]

One always has the option to just hire a car and not tow at all!

Which we will be doing when we go down to Devon from the 18 th

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Pausim]

will be new to this is it a good idea to book awning pitch with a toad.

I don’t. If they can accommodate a caravan and car I expect them to accommodate a motorhome and car. However, if you can get a bigger pitch at the same price no harm in taking it.

 

[Charlie9038]

Which we will be doing when we go down to Devon from the 18 th

In case your not aware Enterprise Rent a car used to be able to deliver on site within 10 miles But due to cv19 can no longer offer that service

 

[TonyEmm]

In case your not aware Enterprise Rent a car used to be able to deliver on site within 10 miles But due to cv19 can no longer offer that service

I’ve almost always used Zest in Portugal. Not sure about their service in the though. When down in Alvor, the hire company drove down from Faro to our apartment. We did the paperwork in the street! GREAT service....

https://www.zestcarrental.com/

 

[pandas]

I’ve almost always used Zest in Portugal. Not sure about their service in the though. When down in Alvor, the hire company drove down from Faro to our apartment. We did the paperwork in the street! GREAT service....

https://www.zestcarrental.com/

Zit auto (yes zit) are terrific, new cars and very competitive. work out of car park 4 at Faro Airport.

 

[bobnick]

In case your not aware Enterprise Rent a car used to be able to deliver on site within 10 miles But due to cv19 can no longer offer that service

Thanks for that. Worse case is we taxi to the rental company. No bother.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Charlie9038]

Thanks for that. Worse case is we taxi to the rental company. No bother.

Taxi in Devon... good luck with that.
Just saying from experience I hope you find it easier.

 

[Northernraider]

What’s the issue with TowTal, I have my C1 booked in to get fitted out next month?

thanks

Mine is a towtal and is 16 years old and still going strong

 

[TonyEmm]

From an A Frame supplier. I know they are biased.

Am I legal in Europe?
Countries like Spain and Germany have local laws that state you may not tow a motor vehicle
with another motor vehicle unless an authorised break down vehicle. To avoid rope towing etc.
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
That complies with all European trailer legislation. That is identified as a trailer by the
reflective triangles, the towing vehicles numberplate, the brakes operated solely by braking
in the towing vehicle, and the lights duplicating that of the towing vehicle.
2. Their local laws (Not European Laws) Apply if you are a resident and have lived there
greater than 6 months, or if your vehicle is registered in that country. In which case A-frame
towing would be illegal.
3. If you are travelling/holidaying for less than 6 months in that country then: No state has the
power to reclassify a vehicle travelling from another state. As a visitor from another state
you are legal under the powers of international traffic as defined in the Vienna convention,
as long as your combination of vehicles are legal in your home country (see opposite).
4. Your local police officer may not be familiar with international traffic and far more familiar
with their local laws, and as such it is possible you may get stopped. This is why we provide
translated documents explaining what you are towing and its legality, to produce if needed.
The reality is that far fewer people are stopped than is made of by gossip and internet posts.
And often these people that are stopped are either, not compliant and therefore rightly
stopped, or stopped for some other reason.
5. Despite installing hundreds of A-frames each year, we have only ever known of one of our
customers being stopped abroad (in Spain). It was because they had a brake light out on
their towcar. After the light was sorted and the police officer was shown the braking system
working, they were permitted to continue without a problem.
Another was the Mont Blanc Tunnel, which upon presentation of their provided international
traffic documentation, were permitted to continue. The truth is we get far more reports of
successful trips passing numerous authorities without being stopped. The law is on your
side if you do things properly.
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.

I have ‘a thing’ about ‘A’ frames and don’t believe they are legal anywhere for transportation (breakdowns and recovery is fine).

However, my opinion counts for nothing.
I have written to both the French and Spanish Consulates for the current situation abroad. I shall report here when (if) I get an answer!

 

[sweetie]

You might not like them we realise that. But can you please tell us how many accidents have happened while a car is being towed with A frame behind a motorhome,, and how many accidents have happened while trailers are being towed.

 

[PeteH]

I have ‘a thing’ about ‘A’ frames and don’t believe they are legal anywhere for transportation (breakdowns and recovery is fine).

However, my opinion counts for nothing.
I have written to both the French and Spanish Consulates for the current situation abroad. I shall report here when (if) I get an answer!

I too have a thing about them. Having done about 20k miles over some 20 years. The only downside is the Bureaucratic attitude to a perfectly safe and sensible means of transporting a small (and not so small) car in safety. The Americans do Millions of miles a year with them? Zero reported issues. They BTW also use "Dollies", (you can even rent them "U Haul" as I did to bring a FWD auto car from Florida to Texas.) again safe and reliable. and again Barred in Europe!.

One could?, easily suspect A "conspiracy" and collusion between trailer manufactures and the Governments of Europe? even. But more likely just the usual crass stupidity.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Thing is, I haven't seen people being stopped......EVER
There are hundreds or thousands of A frames out there

Loads of opinions against them. including opinions ( not prosecutions) of police individuals

Any actual prosecutions?

In fact, is there evidence of a single prosecution for using one in the way they are being used??

 

[Reallyretired]

We have an A frame on our Alto and use it only in the UK, so very rarely.
We did once take it to France but found it more of a hindrance than a help. We have never had any problem parking the motorhome (7.6m) within walking distance of where we want to be in France or Spain. The UK is a different matter altogether.

 

[olley]

I have ‘a thing’ about ‘A’ frames and don’t believe they are legal anywhere for transportation (breakdowns and recovery is fine).

However, my opinion counts for nothing.
I have written to both the French and Spanish Consulates for the current situation abroad. I shall report here when (if) I get an answer!

Funnily enough I agree with you they are illegal, but like you my opinion counts for nothing. But as the DVLA says they're a trailer and the police continue to ignore them I shall happily keep using mine.

 

[TonyEmm]

Thing is, I haven't seen people being stopped......EVER
There are hundreds or thousands of A frames out there

Loads of opinions against them. including opinions ( not prosecutions) of police individuals

Any actual prosecutions?

In fact, is there evidence of a single prosecution for using one in the way they are being used??

There have been reported incidents on this forum of folk being stopped and/or fined for towing with ‘A’ frames In Spain....

Sadly, the collection of statistics is very difficult to pin down. Take ‘RTA’S for instance.

There is no legal requirement for any Road Traffic Accident to be reported, even if someone is injured, provided the parties have exchanged details.
When the police record accident statistics, While there is a standard form for reporting, they do not have to use it. They can report in any way they like. They also have no obligation (and the standard form does not require them) to report whether or not a trailer, be it Caravan, goods trailer, horse box or indeed a car on an frame was involved.
<Broken link removed>

 

[Pausim]

There have been reported incidents on this forum of folk being stopped and/or fined for towing with ‘A’ frames In Spain....

Sadly, the collection of statistics is very difficult to pin down. Take ‘RTA’S for instance.

There is no legal requirement for any Road Traffic Accident to be reported, even if someone is injured, provided the parties have exchanged details.
When the police record accident statistics, While there is a standard form for reporting, they do not have to use it. They can report in any way they like. They also have no obligation (and the standard form does not require them) to report whether or not a trailer, be it Caravan, goods trailer, horse box or indeed a car on an frame was involved.
<Broken link removed>

i.e. There is no evidence that A-frames are a problem.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[olley]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Playing devil's advocate here.

 

[Pausim]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Playing devil's advocate here.

Indeed proving a negative is notoriously difficult which is why the onus lies with providing positive proof that there is a problem.

 

[TonyEmm]

i.e. There is no evidence that A-frames are a problem.

Nor is there likely to be when there is no requirement to record any statistics! That doesn’t mean there aren’t incidents.
Over 20 years ago there was the same argument being bandied about that there was no evidence regarding accidents Involving caravan and/or trailers, therefore, some made the assumption that numbers involved were insignificant. We all know that caravans can (and do) turn over, and that an unstable trailer can snake all over the road.
I recall an incident in Yorkshire where a flat bed trailer derailed a train, killing heaven knows how many, but despite high profile incidents like that, there is still no requirement for trailer accidents to be recorded.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Man is woken by noise of heavy rain, looks outside everone gas an umbrella

Day2 ....same
Day 3....same

He concludes Umbrellas cause rain, goes back to bed vowing never to buy one

 

[TonyEmm]

I thought the regulation was that you had to be able to reverse the trailer without getting out of the car?

It has been since 1998 when regulation 98/12EC was enshrined in law.

2.1.2.1. Service braking system
The service braking system shall enable the driver to control the movement of the vehicle and to halt it safely, speedily and effectively, whatever its speed and load, on any up or down gradient. It shall be possible to graduate this braking action. The driver shall be able to achieve this braking action from his driving seat without removing his hands from the steering control.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[TonyEmm]

Hi I remember a good few years back when Armatidge did a A frame for a man and it also caught fire 10 mins after he left factory. Lost his car . Armatidge admitting fault said they would replace etc, but when his insurance got involved they went back on their word
The man's wife had terminal cancer and he never gave us a update but his last post said he had been left to fight them for his replacement car but his wife was really bad and he had no fight left in him and was using his energy to make his wife's last few weeks better. Never heard anything more

Any idea what the problem was?

 

[Terry]

Any idea what the problem was?

Hi we never got a definite answer but I seem to remember it happened within ten mins of leaving Armatages so it must have not been adjusted correctly by them causing the brakes to bind and catch fire. Armatage admitted it was their fault on the spot then changed their mind once insurance got involved

 

[olley]

I believe the brake cable had been wrongly adjusted so holding the brakes on, I presume the tyres then caught fire or part of the plastic body.

 

[PeteH]

So, so far we have one incident?. Almost certainly caused by faulty installation?. And that is the basis for a blanket "ban" . On that basis alone all aviation should stop? All cars must be banned. In fact we should all remain in our beds because it is unsafe? Best make sure the ceiling supports are ok though first?.

 

[pandas]

There have been reported incidents on this forum of folk being stopped and/or fined for towing with ‘A’ frames In Spain....

Sadly, the collection of statistics is very difficult to pin down. Take ‘RTA’S for instance.

There is no legal requirement for any Road Traffic Accident to be reported, even if someone is injured, provided the parties have exchanged details.
When the police record accident statistics, While there is a standard form for reporting, they do not have to use it. They can report in any way they like. They also have no obligation (and the standard form does not require them) to report whether or not a trailer, be it Caravan, goods trailer, horse box or indeed a car on an frame was involved.
<Broken link removed>

TonyEmm, I respect that you are a man on a mission and the mission is to prove that A Frame usage is illegal.
Unfortunately no matter what I read from you there is still no conclusive proof that they are and I personally feel if all that energy and passion you have on this subject were to be taken from an impartial perspective people here with A Frames or considering them would be in a more informed place. Again I am respectful of your views and don’t want to come across as rude. As you know I haven’t an A frame and haven’t done so for years but they do have an enormous advantage for some over the alternatives.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}